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Posted: 7/28/2003 1:58:16 AM EDT
Ok first off please forgive my ignorance on the subject, you would think as much as I read around here I would have picked up this info, but in any case…….. First off, if buy a Pistol upper kit; it must go on a preban lower? Second if I were to purchase a complete AR 15 pistol must I purchase a tax stamp and have the correct license? (Yes I understand the idea of class III and FFL licensing but I can’t think of a way to rephrase the above statement) Again I hope my lack of knowledge on this subject will not be the cause of a bunch of unrelated replies such as any type of HEAT related comment with a smiley face next to it. That crap is getting real old. Thanks in advance for the help.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 2:49:45 AM EDT
To build an ar pistol, it must be built on a virgin (never had a stock attached) lower. A post ban lower can be built, with an attached pistol grip on a form 1, as an AOW. To buy a genuine AR pistol, you must conform to the laws regarding any other pistol purchase. A year and a month from today, the first part will go away and you can build a regular one all day long, still a virgin lower, no grip needed.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:06:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 3:13:06 AM EDT by Dano523]
As stated, the receiver has to be virgin and form 1 to the BATF as a pistol receiver. So just buying a standard receiver is not going to cut it. The FFL that builds/machines the receiver will have had to register the receiver as a pistol receiver, not a rifle receiver. So once you get the pistol receiver, you will need to weigh the receiver and the parts. The built pistol cannot be over 50oz, due to the mag not being inserted into the pistol grip, but a location other than the pistol grip. So step two is to mill the receiver to loose the extra weight and get you to/ below the 50 oz max weight allowed. It can be down, but leaves a lot to be desired. Also, since the gun is a pistol, no butt stock, or any forward grips. By adding these items, you make the rifle a SBR (butt stock) or AOW (forward grip). [img]http://www.quarterbore.com/images/oa98_a_03_small.jpg[/img] If the pistol is built on a Post ban pistol receiver, then adding a FS is out. As far as owning a AR-15 pistol, no special tax is requried, it just another pistol in the eyes of the BATF.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:10:33 AM EDT
First off, if buy a Pistol upper kit; it must go on a preban lower?
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Probably so. It is impossible to build an AR pistol using a standard AR kit and meet the provisions of the AW ban. It fails due to: [list] [*]Mag inserted outside the pistol grip[/*] [*]Forward gripping surface[/*] [*]50oz weight limit[/*] [/list] However, consider that to be an ATF recognized pre-ban receiver, it had to be assembled in some state. Since that state was probably a rifle, you will be making a NFA short barrel rifle by putting a pistol upper on it, [b]even if you remove the stock[/b]. If you are going to build a pistol, make damn sure that the receiver left the factory stripped. I'm still waiting for all the AW violations to be prosecuted, but the ATF does take NFA violations seriously.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:17:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 3:18:40 AM EDT by Southern_Raider]
As stated, the receiver has to be virgin and form 1 to the BATF as a pistol receiver. So just buying a standard receiver is not going to cut it.
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Not true. Please reference the ATF letter and this statement in particular: [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt[/url]
If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity.
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This was the result of a lawsuit with Thompson Center on their Contender which was built on a rifle action. The ATF lost...
If the pistol is built on a Post ban pistol receiver, then adding a FS is out.
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On a pistol, a flash hider is OK, but barrel threads are not. Pistols and rifles use different features to qualify as AWs. A permanently attached flash hider would actually be legal.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:42:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dano523: As stated, the receiver has to be virgin and form 1 to the BATF as a pistol receiver. So just buying a standard receiver is not going to cut it. The FFL that builds/machines the receiver will have had to register the receiver as a pistol receiver, not a rifle receiver.
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Not true. You can purchase a stripped reciever, with a note from the dealer that it was a virgin stripped and NEVER had a buttstock attached to it. As long as one was never attached, its a receiver.
So once you get the pistol receiver, you will need to weigh the receiver and the parts. The built pistol cannot be over 50oz, due to the mag not being inserted into the pistol grip, but a location other than the pistol grip.
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Thats why I said forward grip. AOW is a Form1, BUT there are no weight restrictions, etc. Put the front grip onit and away you go. Flash hider, ok, weight, who cares. NFA trumps AWB.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:58:58 AM EDT
Just curious, but HOW would they know if it's a "virgin" receiver or not?
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 4:27:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66: Just curious, but HOW would they know if it's a "virgin" receiver or not?
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Well, under AWB the burden of proof is on the holder of the weapon. I will [i]assume[/i] sameis true for NFA.. BTW, I am not a lawyer, dont play one on TV and did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn last night. YMMV, Consult your local ARFCOM Legalk Section for [b]real legal advice[/b].
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 7:07:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66: Just curious, but HOW would they know if it's a "virgin" receiver or not?
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Obviously they won't know by looking at it. However, a quick call to the factory will confirm how it left. If it left as a rifle, you're in trouble. In any criminal case, the burden of proof is on the government. If the weapon is seized under administrative charges, it is up to you to prove compliance.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 11:10:40 AM EDT
Thanks for the info, I guess there is alot more to this than I first guessed. I think my best bet is to go to a local Dealer and buy the complete firearm. If i suceed in this I'll be sure to post pics. If anyone has a completed pistol can you please post it and give me a ruff est. price on what you paid.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 3:45:42 PM EDT
your best bet would be to just buy an AOW pistol from Mark Budda.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 4:54:46 PM EDT
Ok but when you open the http://www.bushmaster.com/ site they have a new AR pistol for sale. Im assuming this thing would be completelly post ban right?? So what the dilly yo??
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 6:36:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 6:37:40 PM EDT by Mr10anahaf]
Ya , good point I forgot all about bushmaster's new stuff.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 2:56:48 AM EDT
Ok but when you open the http://www.bushmaster.com/ site they have a new AR pistol for sale. Im assuming this thing would be completelly post ban right?? So what the dilly yo??
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If you look at the pistol it eliminates evil features to comply with the AW ban. First, it has no forward gripping surface (handguards). Second, it is made from polymer to beat the 50oz weight limit. The only evil feature it still has it that it accepts mags outside the grip.
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