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Posted: 7/25/2003 1:20:34 PM EDT
I am not trying to bash anyone but I would like to know why most AR Manufactures choose to build there companies in one of the most liberal antigun states?RRA,Aramalite, M&A,Les bear to name a few. Illinois is the third worst enemy of AR's so why do the AR makers choose to build there companies there? They pay taxes to help the antigun liberals push there agenda on the rest of the country. I 'm not saying there bad but in a time where most gun friendly state would just about give them a factory to bring in jobs why do they stay in the place they are least liked?
here's an idea all gun makers in Illinois get together move to the most progun town in the USA and tell Illinois to kiss off. I'll help pack!
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 1:23:20 PM EDT
May I propose they ALL move to Arizona?! Good pro-gun place to set up shop, IMHO. -TriggerFish (I wouldn't have to pay shipping all the time)
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 1:27:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2003 1:29:15 PM EDT by 2-gun]
I have heard some states past laws to prevent the B/S lawsuits agianst gun makers. would'nt that lower there insurance rates if they move there. More profit is alwary a good thing right gun makers?
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 1:40:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2003 1:40:55 PM EDT by Torf]
Originally Posted By 2-gun: ...I would like to know why most AR Manufactures choose to build there companies in one of the most liberal antigun states?RRA,Aramalite, M&A,Les bear to name a few. Illinois is the third worst enemy of AR's so why do the AR makers choose to build there companies there?
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Illinois is not all that anti-gun, and it is nowhere near being the "3rd worst enemy of AR's". With the current laws on the books, Illinois is only slightly more Anti-gun than is Missouri. [b]Lets look at the upsides:[/b] There is no evil semi-automatic rifle ban(AW ban) in the state. There are no ballistic fingerprinting requirements for weapons. There is no 'smart-gun' law. There are no additional restrictions for purchasers of handguns as long as you are 21 and wait 5 days. Wait for rifles/shotguns is 3 days. Paintball/Airsoft/Toys/Spud Cannons are totally legal. Tannerite is legal. 'Any other Weapon' is legal. .50 BMG is legal. AP rifle ammo is legal. We have many RKBA friendly areas in the state which offsets the Chicago machine. [b]Now for the downsides:[/b] No CCW, except for the politicians/cops/famous/bonded individuals. No FA or Destructive Devices. FOID card required for residents to purchase real guns or loaded ammunition. (FOID card is "shall-issue" to eligible residents and costs $1 a year.) We have a newly elected government that is being pressured to enact new gun control laws. ------------------------------------- Other Illinois residents may wish to add to this list, but as I said before, Illinois is in [b]NO WAY EVEN CLOSE[/b] to CA or NY, NJ, MA, CT, RI, DE, MD and a couple others. Illinois is in a totally different league. Illinois fits right in with the other upper midwest states like IA, WI, OH, MN, except that recently CCW is spreading though a few of these states.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 2:00:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2003 2:10:07 PM EDT by 2-gun]
Trof I live in Missouri and have been to Ilinois about three times but the times I've visited I saw Big diffrance .Illinois is chawcked full of liberal antigun people granterd there some good common sence progun people who live there but the ones I know are very unhappy.I have heard they plan to raise the cost of a foid card to 300.00 and that if even one person says they are scaerd of you they will revoke it .IE a neighbor see's you load a rifle in your car to go to the gun range. Also I belive regestration is a prelude to confication.Also I have heard they have already banned all (bad guns )Ie..the Ak's,AR, Ect.. I don't know how much of what I have been told is true but as I see Ilinois it's very antigun.Is'nt it true that if you live in Ilinois and do'nt have a foid card then you can't even buy 22lr bullets?Also I have heard that if you've used your foid card to buy a gun the state later bans they will demand either the gun or your card?
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 2:26:51 PM EDT
Its 24hrs on long guns and 3 days on handguns in IL.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 2:38:47 PM EDT
There are several good reasons. 1) The Quad Cities has a decent tradition of precision metalwork. Just like Massechussets, Conneticut, Chicago, Ohio, and Milwaukee (think Kreiger barrels!) 2) Folks work at a place, form their own operation, employees move back and forth, generally its a good thing. 3) Every part of the country needs their own little part of the military inustrial complex. Your politicians fight for your state's part of the pie. I would say that far more ARs are made on the East Coast, BTW. Why not rag about Mass. and Ct? Excellent precision metalworking, guys! So, this is part of the project I sort of started. I wanted to build up an AR with all local parts. But it's hard... who really makes bolt carriers? Where? Who really makes the RRA lower? What does it mean? I know who makes the JP lower (minnesota)- they machine it from bar stock, but I'm not willing to pay the price for their excellent stuff. So, do I really want to pay $200 more for a Kreiger barrel if I'm really just plinking pop cans at 200 yards? Anyways- Steve: I'm waiting for my Medesha front and back parts. You'd have them by now! Pete
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 2:52:59 PM EDT
You forgot MANY other manufacturers, that are NOT in Illinois. Get your fact stright. Example: you only mention 4. What about: Colt (CT) Bushmaster (ME) Cav Arms (AZ) Wilson Combat (AR) FN (SC) Hmm... looks like you are incorrect on your "most" comment.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 2:53:14 PM EDT
You have to have an industrial base to support manufacturing. They're ideally located. Arizona would suck for them and probably double the cost of the guns.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 4:16:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 5:20:05 PM EDT
If I'm not mistaken, DE's firearms laws are more relaxed and simple, only class 3 and may-issue CCW are the problem. No AW, no BS waiting period, no ID card whatsoever.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 6:52:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2003 7:06:48 PM EDT by 2-gun]
My point was I belive there are more AR makers in Ilinois than any other single state and I wanted to know why.I find it hard to beleive they need to be there because of quality or shipping. there people can be moved or replaced and any place near a interstate and a majior airport is good for shipping. As to quality there are good makers and there are not so good makers there .I am not sold on the notion that they can't build a good product in another state and I dought if they will loose money.Are not Kreiger barrels made of German steel?If they all pooled there resorces to move would'nt that be more cost efective? If Ilinois is going to sue them any way would'nt it make sence to move to a state that won't? 1.LES BEAR 2.RRA 3.ARMALITE 4.M&a 5.modle 1 Those where found flippin through one issue of shot gun news not even lookin hard. I am sure if I realy look I can find more and I know of no other state that has that many. If they completly ban all AR in Ilinois will all the manufatures there not be allowed to make or ship any guns or parts?
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 7:48:19 PM EDT
Since no one actually seems to be able to answer. I would suggest you take it to the Armalite forum. They would best know the history of the area.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 8:50:47 PM EDT
My guess is a couple of the larger forging companies are located there. Dang it, I don't have their links, had to format my harddrive last week and lost my "favorites" but anyway Cardinal and Harvey...something. The split "A" folks. Rick
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 11:17:49 PM EDT
No forging places here, many of the companies are breakaways from larger companies. Example Springfield Armoury (Les worked there I believe, As did The RRA Boys, (who worked for Armalite) there is a large machine shop for Govt M16 project in the area, if you looked at the family tree it is a mass or branches, I (RB Precision, Moline)came out the local AR plant. If you lumped in all other manufactures (DSA, DAVE STAG, Sable co, etc) we are a cornicopia of manufacturers. Robert
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 6:32:31 AM EDT
somebody should make them here in detroit. talk about availability of machine work... probably could put a good business together IF you had someone who knew enough about making ARs to spec the contractors right. probably could come in at very competitive pricing.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 6:38:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2003 6:42:32 AM EDT by cz75fan]
Here's the 2 places i was thinking about. [url=http://www.forgings.com/mad.htm]Anchor-Harvey[/url] [url=http://www.cardinal-forge.com/]Cardinal[/url]
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 7:25:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TriggerFish: May I propose they ALL move to Arizona?! Good pro-gun place to set up shop, IMHO. -TriggerFish (I wouldn't have to pay shipping all the time)
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I will second this proposal... Geoff
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 9:04:37 AM EDT
Ahh I see so the forging plants are there that makes good sence.I would guess close the Mississippi River as they would need large amounts of water.I never would have guessed they where all related. But that doesn't answer the question of what will happen if Illinois bans all AR type guns and parts? One other thing I thought of. If they are located in Illinois and sell to other states there costumers won't have to pay sales tax. Not many sales in Illinois.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 11:17:46 AM EDT
Remember, Rock Island Arsenal is located there. You have a major government employer that historically employed and trained people in the art of weapon making. Sub-contractors grew up along side the arsenal and as the government downsized the plant, people left and worked with the sub-contractors. Most of the companies and machine shops there have something to do with Springfield Armory and before that, Rock Island.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 1:01:14 PM EDT
First, let me say, screw anyone who thinks Illinois-based firearms manufacturers should move out of Illinois because of the current political climate. That's a crappy thing to wish on fellow firearms enthusiasts like myself. Now that I've got your attention and vented, I'll explain why you should reconsider that stance. For the uninformed (hopefully only non-residents), there are some nasty gun bills in limbo right now (e.g. an AW ban ala' Kalifornia). The firearms manufacturers in our state (Rock River Arms, DSA, Springfield Armory, Armalite and Les Baer to name a few) have been making a big stink about the proposed gun laws which, so far, has helped to keep the anti's at bay. If an AW ban did become law in Illinois, then all of these manufacturers would have to move their operations to another state which would cause the state to lose jobs and tax revenue. These losses wouldn't sit very well with the general public considering how bad the state's budget deficit is right now. Consider this - a state (like Illinois) that does have a rabid anti-crowd needs the aforementioned manufacturers more than a gun-friendly state. The battle for our 2nd Amendment rights is an ongoing one and we need all the heavy-weight support (read that big $$$) we can get. BTW, the anti's are concentrated in Northern Illinois, right around Chicago and they're being lead by the king of the anti's, Richard (or as I call him, Dick) Daley, the mayor of Chicago. It should be noted that despite the draconian gun laws that currently "afflict" the residents of Chicago and its suburbs, the Chicago metro area has one of the worst violent crime rates in the nation. I'm sure that doesn't come as a surprise to those of you who are familiar with the current state of affairs in England and D.C. Just because the anti's have "big mouths" and play it up to the liberal rags in this state, that doesn't mean the whole state should be written off as "being full of anti's". To ask the manufacturers residing in this state to just give up and leave is tantamount to asking them to commit treason. Luckily, they have more cajones than that and are willing to stick it out until the battle is over. Finally, please understand I'm not looking to attack anyone personally on this issue but every single one of you should put the shoe on the other foot and consider how you would feel if there was a possibility that you could lose your AR. You'd probably feel like I do - mad as hell.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 1:51:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2003 1:53:09 PM EDT by TriggerFish]
Matt_B, I see your points, and they are well taken. If the "big boys" have to spend lots of $$$ to defeat the antis & their proposed legislation, the cost of this gets passed on to the customer. The result: higher and higher AR parts & gun prices. If the gun makers are allowed to compete pricewise with those companies operating in gun-friendly states, they and us (the end users) will be better off. Huge lawyers fees (fighting liability suits) and filling the coffers of state politicians (you can only rent 'em, not BUT 'em) to get them to vote your way, could possibly lead to them getting out of the business. This is not good for anyone. We need a healthy, profitable firearms industry. We, as individuals, need to get involved politically. The industry can help, but the heavy lifting is always up to us. -TriggerFish
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 2:19:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TriggerFish: Matt_B, I see your points, and they are well taken. If the "big boys" have to spend lots of $$$ to defeat the antis & their proposed legislation, the cost of this gets passed on to the customer. The result: higher and higher AR parts & gun prices. If the gun makers are allowed to compete pricewise with those companies operating in gun-friendly states, they and us (the end users) will be better off. Huge lawyers fees (fighting liability suits) and filling the coffers of state politicians (you can only rent 'em, not BUT 'em) to get them to vote your way, could possibly lead to them getting out of the business. This is not good for anyone. We need a healthy, profitable firearms industry. We, as individuals, need to get involved politically. The industry can help, but the heavy lifting is always up to us. -TriggerFish
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Actually, that's the funny part - they don't have to spend any money per say. All they have to do is write letters to politicians and tell them "If this bill passes, we are going to have to move our multi-million dollar business out of this state and take all the jobs we provide along with us. Do YOU (the politician) want to be the one who has to tell your constituents that it was your vote that cost this state jobs and revenue?". And that is exactly what they have done. Some politicians may be anti-gun but they, more often than not, want to be re-elected and don't want the bad press. Now if I wrote a letter to my rep and said if this law passes, I'm moving that doesn't count for squat. If 1 million Illinois residents write letters such as I described, then we're talking about an organized movement, a united voice. If the proposed bill (S.659 Reckless Lawsuit Preemption) passes in the Senate, then we're all going to be better off. But I still have to say that proposing the Illinois firearms manufacturers move out of state is not the answer for the reasons I have stated previously. Running away to another state isn't going to solve the problem. Unless you live in Illinois, you have no idea how it feels to hear that they may be banning your favorite firearms. And, when I say ban, what that means is IF the proposed AW ban passes, every "AW" type firearm will have to be moved out of state or turned over to your local PD within 90 days of said bill's passage or you will become a FELON. I am not exaggerating this - this is exactly what the AW ban bill proposes. Like I said, put yourself in my shoes and maybe you'll see why the gun owners of this state need every bit of help we can get.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 3:24:37 PM EDT
Posted by MATT B. Unless you live in Illinois, you have no idea how it feels to hear that they may be banning your favorite firearms. And, when I say ban, what that means is IF the proposed AW ban passes, every "AW" type firearm will have to be moved out of state or turned over to your local PD within 90 days of said bill's passage or you will become a FELON. I am not exaggerating this - this is exactly what the AW ban bill proposes. Like I said, put yourself in my shoes and maybe you'll see why the gun owners of this state need every bit of help we can get. How can you stay there and fight knowing you are fighting a loosing battle? They have already passed the foid card. That is registration they can revoke it at any time they can raise the cost so high you may not be able to afford one. not to mention they know every little thing you do. You can't even go into a gun shop without a foid card if you live in Illinois. I couldn't live like that. All I was saying was that they should pool there resources and move together to a place they would love and that want's them. Buy a town on EBAY and change the name to AR-15 town USA! I would make it a vacation spot every year:). I don't need to live there to know what it's like I have been there on three occasions and I couldn't wait to leave. I'm not knocking you or the others who are normal but there are a lot of anti's there. I can't stand ST.LOUIS either every time I go there I feel sick and that's in my state. It's not surrender it's a tactical withdraw and regrouping. leaving now and not after the antis make you would send them a massage. The message is (you don't want us here fine we will leave but we'll take our money with us and go find a state that will appreciate us. Just remember you didn't kick us out we left because we wanted to!) Isn't that better than waiting till they make you leave? I am not bad mouthing any progun people or companies. I just hate to see so many good gun companies and people live and pay taxes to a liberally controlled state that doesn't want them. Lets try to keep this civil
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 9:21:06 PM EDT
I know the owners of several of the IL based companies, and they aren't planning on going anywhere. They're all planning to fight the proposed legislation, in whatever form it comes up in, whenever it comes up. Pooling their resources to move to some Utopia of free-love-of-ARs isn't viable, logical, or doable. It's not just the manufacturers either. Think about the shippers, the machine shops, the parts suppliers, the box-makers, the catalog printers, the web-site designers and makers, and everyone else associated with the small arms industry but who isn't actually in it. Even the towns that they are in have been helping, with council resolutions, letters to reps and senators, letters to their state party leadership, etc... Most people in Illinois couldn't care less whther or not we have ARs or anything else. The impetus for this all comes from Sickago and it's left-leaning dictatorial political machine...so far, legislators from the rest of the state have stood up to the machine, perhaps even scaring Richie Daley and his puppet governor into leaving it alone for this year, although we all know it will be back again and again, at which point the manufacturers will fight it all over again.
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 5:46:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt_B: BTW, the anti's are concentrated in Northern Illinois, right around Chicago and they're being lead by the king of the anti's, Richard (or as I call him, Dick) Daley, the mayor of Chicago. It should be noted that despite the draconian gun laws that currently "afflict" the residents of Chicago and its suburbs, the Chicago metro area has one of the worst violent crime rates in the nation.
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Well said. Give 'em hell ! If Chicago fell into Lake Michigan, Illinois would be a great state. Downstate Illinois is full of law abiding gun owners who have no use for Daley's Bullshit. When SB1195 was floating around, the good people of Illinois crashed the phone system in Springfield with cries of "No more gun control !"
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 6:07:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Matt_B: BTW, the anti's are concentrated in Northern Illinois, right around Chicago and they're being lead by the king of the anti's, Richard (or as I call him, Dick) Daley, the mayor of Chicago.
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And here it is - the seemingly eternal struggle between the mostly liberal, and often corrupt, beings and politicians from Cook County against the mostly conservative, hard working citizens from Southern Illinois. As several of you have posted, don't paint the entire state of Illinois with the same brush that should only be used for Cook County. 5sub
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 6:15:19 AM EDT
"If Chicago fell into Lake Michigan, Illinois would be a great state." If Chicago fell in to Lake Michigan..... ahhhh! I like the way you think! Pete (southern part of Wi.)
Link Posted: 7/27/2003 5:53:14 PM EDT
Hey Matt B............you a member of MRC?????.........
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