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Posted: 7/23/2003 11:30:43 AM EDT
with all these reports of the ineffectiveness of CLP and talk of replacing it with the MiliTec i was wondering if anyone has tried this Militec stuff and their impressions of it. Does it hold up well against rust? that is my main concern. I keep my firearms stored in my basement which tends to be humid even with a de-humidifier running all the time and rust can attack my firearms rather quickly, any other suggestions on metal treaments/cleaners to prevent this?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:39:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:43:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 1:06:09 PM EDT by 800Mtrs]
I swear by Militec-1. It does have a corrosion inhibitor as well, but I use it for a lube. I always wipe my guns down as well with a Silicon cloth. I use CLP as a clener only and nothing more, I make sure to get it all off of my weapons whe they are clean then lube them proper. You are openign a huge can of worms with opinions, and it could get ugly. [peep] I just dont trust any one product to do all three. I try to find the best of each category and use them in that manner seperately. I also use solvent as well for the tough stuff. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:44:43 AM EDT
Check this out. There is a link to a corrosion test done by Crufflerjj from Gunboards.com. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=165475 Raymond
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:44:45 AM EDT
I've been using CLP for some time. I will continue to do so, as I have yet to find one product that is superior in such a broad range of applications. Meplat-
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:46:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 11:49:21 AM EDT by 800Mtrs]
I agree with Troy about the improper use of a tragedy.[marines] My personal and extremely unqualified opinion is that of poor weapons maint. but it is a moot point. edited to add a possible IBTL
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:49:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Blankwaffe98: Check this out. There is a link to a corrosion test done by Crufflerjj from Gunboards.com. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=165475[/url] Raymond
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Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:53:36 AM EDT
I'm with Troy 100% with this. I WILL NOT use Militech - nor will I EVER recommend it. Using dead soldiers to sell product is BAD - VERY BAD. Its even worse when you realize their product won't protect the rifle from corrosion, and they concede when Crane (Navy Surface Warfare lab) tested against CLP it didn't fare as well in the 'sand storm simulation' test. Here is the page of the report indicating such: [url]http://www.militec1.com/lubetest7.html[/url] Note "Brand E" is Militec1 (as indiciated on an earlier page)
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 11:59:56 AM EDT
The way Mil-Tec has used the Jessica Lynch incident (her company being ambushed in sandstorm) as a method of pushing their products
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WTF? This is the first I'm hearing of this and my jaw hit the desk. I expect something like this from Hollywood or a politian but this blows me away. Sad, very sad.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 12:11:02 PM EDT
They are just saying what everyone else is and keep dragging up that the Maint company that J.L was assigned to suffered weapons malfunctions because the CLP attracted dirt and made the unusable. They are just reiterating that story.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:03:20 PM EDT
with all these reports of the ineffectiveness of CLP and talk of replacing it with the MiliTec i was wondering if anyone has tried this Militec stuff and their impressions of it.
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All these reports? More like one single report heavily biased and repeated seven or eight times on every gun forum throughout the Internet.
Does it hold up well against rust?
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Straight from Militec themselves: "Next, you state that, "When Militec attempted to pass the CLP specification, the product did not meet the preservative requirement." (p. 1, para. 2) [b]This is true[/b]. However, the point is irrelevant. New weapons specs require manufacturers to coat guns for corrosion resistance adequate to meet soldiers' needs before the gun is even lubed." [url]http://www.militec-1.com/Thompson32.html[/url] In the same letter they also acknowledge that it doesn't meet the minimum cleaning requirement for CLP either (80% of powder residue). The marketing campaign was plenty tasteless on its own; but I've read the evidence on their site and I think it supports the Army's decision 100%.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:19:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 1:22:01 PM EDT by Guntoting_Spartan]
OK OK OK yes miltec did a bad thing, but whats a good rust prevenative?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:24:09 PM EDT
OK OK OK yes miltec did a bad thing, but whats a good rust prevenative?
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Did you check the Gunboard link in the earlier posted thread? [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=165475[/url] It has a link to two separate corrosion tests using a bunch of different lubes (with pictures no less!). CLP and Eezox come out pretty high on both.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:24:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan: OK OK OK yes miltec did a bad thing, but whats a good rust prevenative?
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[url]www.sentrysolutions.com[/url]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:51:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: CLP is hardly ineffective. It is just a bad choice for desert areas where wind storms blow fine sand (talcum powder consistantcy) into everything. That's an out-of-the-ordinary environment, which AFAIK isn't duplicated anywhere in the USA, and does need special attention for that reason. The way Mil-Tec has used the Jessica Lynch incident (her company being ambushed in sandstorm) as a method of pushing their products pisses me off, even IF their product claims are true (which has yet to be proven). -Troy
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So if they had used miltech, they are saying the guy wouldnot have crash the humvee. GG
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:17:57 PM EDT
On the blowing dust, and sand test, per their own website, CLP was the best lubricant. Their own lubricant came in last. It also says that while liquid lubes caused more dust to stick to them, they were better able to overcome it than dry lubricants.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:34:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 2:34:57 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
I used CLP in my rifle during GW1. Just before the drive into Iraq I lubed it per spec's and my rifle was completely filthy only after a days drive. I drove a doorless HMMWV and kept the rifle in my lap the whole way through to the Euphrates valley. During one stop I dropped my mag and pulled the charging handle to inspect. The grit was SO BAD it freaked me out. I field stripped my M16 and brushed the hell out of it and did not apply any more CLP.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:40:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru:
Originally Posted By Troy: CLP is hardly ineffective. It is just a bad choice for desert areas where wind storms blow fine sand (talcum powder consistantcy) into everything. That's an out-of-the-ordinary environment, which AFAIK isn't duplicated anywhere in the USA, and does need special attention for that reason. The way Mil-Tec has used the Jessica Lynch incident (her company being ambushed in sandstorm) as a method of pushing their products pisses me off, even IF their product claims are true (which has yet to be proven). -Troy
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So if they had used miltech, they are saying the guy wouldnot have crash the humvee. GG
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Yeah and the Iraqis would have seen their extremly clean and lubed bolts from miles away and would have never felt the need to lob a couple RPG's their way.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:02:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan: OK OK OK yes miltec did a bad thing, but whats a good rust prevenative?
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[url]communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-rust.html[/url] Militec and Militec, Inc. can go pack sand... CLP was and is the standard, end of story... Perhaps Brad P. Giordani, President of Militec, Inc. should have a link to this thread sent to him so he can see firsthand what the firearm community thinks of his sleazy marketing ploy...
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:25:55 PM EDT
I thought I was the only one that thought Mil-tec sounded stupid using a tragedy to sell their products. They sound like anti gunners to me, the way they jumped on. They can kiss my $%^#%.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:19:00 PM EDT
Aaargh! This story pisses me off everytime it is brought up. Miltech's use of this tragedy as both an advertising tool and to try and pull political strings within the DOD proves they are nothing but opportunistic pukes. They are even using senior leadership to try and forward their cause. Be very skeptical about any opinions offered by those senior leaders who claim to be "in the know". Most of them, like so many others have done, are only kissing up to these contractors/manufacturers in an attempt to gain employment after they retire with salaries that match their ego's. This is a big plus for the contractors/manufacturers as these new VP's, Consultants and Advisors bring with them all their contacts within their former departments along with the GOBS(Good Ole Boy System). Which brings with it influence and inside information that at best borderlines on unethical and at worst criminal behavior. Same thing as insider trading on Wall Street. As to the actually tragedy that started this, well.... I'll relate some of the experiences gained while shooting and repairing M16's and observations I've made while teaching marksmanship and operator maintenance to soldiers for some 20 years now. I have been in both Combat Arms(In my younger days), and a Support type(currently), so I have seen both ends of the spectrum. But, keep in mind there are always exceptions. 1. Infantry types aside, most soldiers have to be kicked in the ass to even apply the most basic operator maintenance (Clean and Lubricate) to their weapons. Most veiw it as almost a form of punishment. 2. When these soldiers do conduct maintenance on their weapon, most will do a half-assed job unless the armorer knows his shit and is a hard ass with them. 3. Unless the man in #2 above is still on the job, most will improperly lubricate said weapon before going to the range or God forbid, leaving on a mission. "I don't know why it won't work Sir, I cleaned it last month". I.E. they will either leave it totally dry or even worse, will literally hose it down with lubricant. 4. In a desert environment, ANY exposed lubricant will act as a dust magnet and quickly jam up the works of any and every weapon. 5. Any Combat Arms type worth their salt knows that you must take care of your gear so it will take care of you, and that any weapon or piece of equipment will fail if neglected. They will take every step to keep dust and sand off of, and out of their weapons so they will work when called upon. Even if it means cleaning it numerous times in one day, just a fact of life. 6. Anyone who ignores #'s 4 and 5 is a liability to themselves and their unit. Could this tragedy have been avoided if everyone had used Miltech the miracle lube, highly unlikely. Would these troops have had a better chance in the fight if some standards of operator maintenance had been enforced within their immediate chain of command, probably, but we'll never know now will we. Sorry for the long post but this subject obviously hits a raw nerve with me. Wpns Man
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:01:28 PM EDT
Go to the miltec site there is a posting of a email to miltec from a gus funcasta who is at piatinny arsenal its an email he received from a dave skeldon who was with a col padgett at the 507th on june 19 to investigate what happened this email to miltec was june 25it reads this.When reading all the misinformation coming back from iraq do not beleive what you read.I dave skeldon and col.padgettwere at the 507th on the 19th what happened to their weapons was not lubricant related and miltec posted this email along with the crane tests in 1993 miltec was 8 failures to clp 1 test rifles were new unfired M16A1s it was a dust test and salt fog test a firing pin rusted after coating with miltec after a 6 hour exposure what miltec did was no different than the anti gun people who use a tradgedy to say we shouldnt own guns,the crane report said L.A.W oil in winter and LSA was still approved for use.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:39:35 PM EDT
I tried a free sample of Militec1 and can say it is the WORSE corrosion preventor I have ever come across. I tested some in salt water mist and the metal with Militec1 rusted as fast as the control. Started to corode in under 2 hours. I will never trust it for that or cleaning. I won't buy it now either after reading their site and "dead soldier" rants!
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:12:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 8:13:28 PM EDT by DaPhotoGuy]
So, where is the best (ie: cheapest) place to buy around 16 fl oz of CLP? Can someone post a link?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:31:19 PM EDT
Can someone point me to where Militec was using this tragedy to sell their lube? The only articles I've seen involved military "experts'" and "analysts'" opinions that they should have used Militec, but no interviews with any Militec personell.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 10:24:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: So, where is the best (ie: cheapest) place to buy around 16 fl oz of CLP? Can someone post a link?
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[url]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/BreakFree/breakfree.htm[/url] Pint - $11.25 Gallon - $52.00 +S&H CC +3%
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:17:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 6:20:08 PM EDT by O_DubhGhaill]
WpnsMan, outstandingly insightful post, #1-#6 couldn't be more true. Lumpy196, good link to a great product: SentrySolution Marine Tuf-Cloth stands up to salt water quite unlike anything I've used. When things got sandy for a few of us back in the day, we used to use Dri Slide Bike Aid, a Moly dry film lubricant that worked really well (was then [and is now] also unbeatable for the clutch and brake cables on my hog -- dry as a bone yet slippery as hell, lasts forever, and completely unattractive to dust and sand.) BTW, here's the Break-Free sight: [url]http://www.break-free.com/index.htm[/url] (FWIW, Break-Free/CLP products have always served me well...I won't use anything else for general purpose CLP to this day, be it rifle, pistol, shotgun, steel mags....) Once there, follow the link to Holsters.com Safariland for the best on-line supplier of Break-Free products I've found. O'DubhGhaill [url=www.forcerecon.com]Force Recon Association[/url] regular member #2259
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 8:22:34 AM EDT
O_DubhGhaill, Thanks, I could give many more examples and some of the axioms I've come up with over the years, but then I'd just get pissed off all over again. You have obviously experienced some of these same problems. TXN, While I have not personally seen a Miltech ad using the 507 ambush, I have seen MUCH official and personnal email traffic at work relating to the incident infering that Miltech would have been a better choice. Obviously, someone is trying to pull some strings and stir the pot on this one. Some of the traffic I've read makes the accusation that Miltech has been shut out from GSA, DLA, etc. contracts unfairly, and go on to state that the troops are begging for their product. Others come from those in procurement, R&D, or who otherwise have some influence that have somehow jumped on the pro Miltech/anti CLP bandwagon. Most of these, fall into two categories, A) Those who either believe the press, or who have otherwise bought(been bought)it. or B) Those old die-hards who refuse to believe that CLP is better than the old RBC and LSA that they use to clean their M14 with, but they somehow like Miltech, funny. Not that I don't like either RBC or LSA, they are each fine products in there perspective areas I.E. RBC to clean with and LSA to lube with afterwards. I myself still use them on occasion. But, they have to be used as a pair to be effective. Logistically speaking, you have to lug around both of them and the use of one without the other leads to failures. And Miltech, well, test results have shown it to be second rate. Dollar for dollar, ounce for ounce, CLP/BreakFree is still the best multi-purpose cleaner and lubricant our troops could use. We just need re-enforce it's PROPER use, and the importance of weapons maintenance in general to the troops. Damn, now I'm pissed again. Wpns Man
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