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Posted: 7/16/2003 6:05:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 6:07:01 AM EDT by coltcarbine]
I'm thinking of buying a Colt 9mm AR for my next collection piece.

Give input on to why I should / shouldn't do this.

What's a good source for mags for it?

What features should I be looking for when buying?

Are there any I should avoid?

I don't understand the differences in the R6430 and the R6450, are there any except the roll mark and barrel twist?

Thoughts, input is appreciated.

Thanks for lookin'

CC

Link Posted: 7/16/2003 8:31:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 8:35:14 AM EDT by Raptor22]
The barrel twist is the same. the only other differences are that the R6430 is a blue label Sporter Lightweight, the R6450 is a green label and is roll marked AR15 A2, The Sporter Lightweight (R6430) is .8 lbs heavier than the AR15 A2 (R6450) and the R6450 is more likely to have a bayonet lug and the lower receiver does not have a sear block. Also, mags are expensive with the 20rds going for about $75-$90 and the 32rds going for $110-$125. you will see them from time to time on the EE.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 8:38:54 AM EDT
Raptor, that is some excellent info! Here's where I got some info that shows different bbl twist. [url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/[/url] How accurate is this table? Is the R6450 the more desirable rifle of the two?
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:45:48 AM EDT
Watch out for later manuf AR15 marked rifles which are post ban and LEonly rifles but Colt never marked them as such. They often show up as prebans for sale but are illegal for you to own. Run the serial number before you can buy. Buy a Green Label or blue label if you can find one that is not sear blocked or oversized trigger group pins. You just might want to buy a full auto conversion kit someday and would be unhappy if your Colt rifle was not ready to accept it.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 10:37:06 AM EDT
The biggest argument against the AR15 in any pistol caliber (excpt maybe .22LR) is that you have a full size 8 pound rifle that fires a weak pistol cartidge. If there is ANY argument in favor of a rifle size weapon firing a pistol bullet, I can't think of it. If its an economical practice concern, go .22LR. Put the money saved by skipping the 9MM upper into a Dillon reloader. If you must have a 9MM, get a pistol.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 11:02:49 AM EDT
I can second that advice. Check the serial on any preban rifle with the manufacturer before buying. Fuego: the other good reason I can think of is indoor home defense. I haven't found any sub-caliber AR which I think is worth the money, but there are not many choices in a quality pistol-caliber semi-auto carbine. I can think of the M1 Carbine, HK-94, and Marlin Camp Carbine. Don't know about the Sub-2000, Glock Carbines.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 11:23:25 AM EDT
9mm Colt ARs are fun, and are far more reliable compared to some of the clones out there. Colt mags are the best and expensive, however modified 9mm UZI and similar mags will work too, but will not hold the bolt open on an empty mag. I have a post-ban 9mm Colt. It is LEGAL to own, they are not LE-Only, contrary to popular belief. There are a few of them out there, but post-bans are rare.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 11:25:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fuego: The biggest argument against the AR15 in any pistol caliber (excpt maybe .22LR) is that you have a full size 8 pound rifle that fires a weak pistol cartidge. If there is ANY argument in favor of a rifle size weapon firing a pistol bullet, I can't think of it. If its an economical practice concern, go .22LR. Put the money saved by skipping the 9MM upper into a Dillon reloader. If you must have a 9MM, get a pistol.
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The 9mm AR is a fun gun, and can be shot at most ranges. Depending on your need, the 9mm is more than sufficient to get the job done.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 11:46:35 AM EDT
I would be interested if someone made a complete kit to convert a post-ban 5.56mm into a post-ban 9mm. But I can't find complete kits, just parts.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:41:47 PM EDT
I have two Colts, a pre ban rifle and a post ban upper. Look for a post ban upper, with 9mm you don't need a chrome bore or a flash suppressor. Colt mags are expensive but work good, if the ban sunsets they should come down to around $50. A lot of fun to shoot, with 147 grain sub sonic they are really quite compared to a hot 9mm or a .223, good for indoor ranges. Mack
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 8:11:21 PM EDT
Rock River Arms sell 9mm conversions and magazine adapter blocks in many configurations. Oly Arms also sells complete kits. I just don't think you have been trying very hard.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 1:19:15 AM EDT
So, I guess mine is a R6430. It has large fire control pins, a sear block, and did not come with a bayonet lug. It is pre-ban with the collapsible stock and I registered it as an SBR, had the barrel cut to 10-inches so the flash hider is butted up to the front sight base. I bought it because I saw the Gemtech Talon SD at the SAR show in Phoenix a couple years back and thought I had to have one, still have to have one, but don’t yet. I registered the weapon because of the five-inch barrel in the SD and for the time being I just use the cut down 10-inch upper. The gun “looks right”, handles great and is a lot of fun to shoot. I never considered the large pins and sear block to be an issue as I’ve never desired to make it full auto. If the opportunity do buy a registered DIAS did present itself and I wanted to run it in this weapon I can have John Norrell cut the sear block out and furnish me with M-16 FCG with large pin holes. Like I said though, I don’t plan on doing this so it is a non-issue for me. What I didn’t want is a flat side gun or something with a large pivot pin. Just my personal opinion or tastes but I don’t care for either and my gun has the raised fence and a small front pushpin. As far as trying to retrofit non-Colt parts and mags I’m done with that. I’ve tried using my upper and buffer on different M-16’s with different drop in mag blocks and different non-Colt mags and nothing has ever worked right. If someone else can get these things to work that’s great, but I’m just sticking with Colt stuff for now on. I have one 20 and one 32-ronud Colt mags and one converted Uzi mag and they all work great. As finances permit I’d like to get a few more Colt mags but I’m always thinking each 32-round mag is 1/10 of the Talon SD. For an AR it is extremely expensive. I’m not very mechanically inclined; actually, some might say I have a negative mechanical inclination. Thus, I am somewhat stuck having to buy the premium parts that aren’t cheap, but the gun works fine, it’s a different twist on an AR and it is a lot of fun. That said, I’d recommend one, and for the average person to use all Colt parts, not a kit, unless you’re close friends with the Dermel tool god. Best Regards, J
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:57:04 AM EDT
The rationall of using a sub caliber round for overpenetration concerns relating to the 9mm vs. the .223 are completely bogus. I've seen it first hand. I fact, it made 60 Minutes about 10 years ago when Customs and DEA executed a legally flawed warrant on a house down by San Diego that resulted in a delightful law suit on the part of the home owner. The bottom line was that many of the 9mm rounds fired by DEA Agents using their Colt SMG's completely penetrated the entirety of the structure, and were never recovered. To the best of my knowledge NONE of the .40 gr jhp .223's fired by Customs Agents, using Styer AUG's, exited any exterior walls. They out performed the HELL out of the 9mm SMG. That whole argument is flawed. You want to use a small light jhp travelling at the speed of light if possible. They absolutely explode on impact and they are fight stoppers when they impact with the bad guy. Everyone will have their own take on this one, I'm sure. But I've seen it in action. In the above rerefenced event, the bad guy was stopped with a shot from a Sig P226 right straight to the bad guy's femoral artery, just because of the dynamics of the way the whole thing unfolded. But as of the time I retired, every bad guy we shot with a .223 was stopped instantly, and buried shortly thereafter. Again, "your mileage may vary," but food for thought.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:14:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FED-up: The rationall of using a sub caliber round for overpenetration concerns relating to the 9mm vs. the .223 are completely bogus. I've seen it first hand. I fact, it made 60 Minutes about 10 years ago when Customs and DEA executed a legally flawed warrant on a house down by San Diego that resulted in a delightful law suit on the part of the home owner. The bottom line was that many of the 9mm rounds fired by DEA Agents using their Colt SMG's completely penetrated the entirety of the structure, and were never recovered. To the best of my knowledge NONE of the .40 gr jhp .223's fired by Customs Agents, using Styer AUG's, exited any exterior walls. They out performed the HELL out of the 9mm SMG. That whole argument is flawed. You want to use a small light jhp travelling at the speed of light if possible. They absolutely explode on impact and they are fight stoppers when they impact with the bad guy. Everyone will have their own take on this one, I'm sure. But I've seen it in action. In the above rerefenced event, the bad guy was stopped with a shot from a Sig P226 right straight to the bad guy's femoral artery, just because of the dynamics of the way the whole thing unfolded. But as of the time I retired, every bad guy we shot with a .223 was stopped instantly, and buried shortly thereafter. Again, "your mileage may vary," but food for thought.
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My brother has an LE magazine (like Guns & Weapons for LE, or something) that has a nice article describing pistol calibers (shooting from a handgun) vs. .223 fired from a 16" AR. I think they said, that according to FBI research, that the .223 loses much of its energy on impact and will not overpenetrate or pierce objects such as bullet-proof vests and cinder blocks, whereas the .45 and 9mm will.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:28:47 AM EDT
David_Hineline: I understand plenty of people sell parts. But after reading the Pistol Caliber forum, I am reluctant to spend hundreds on a pile of parts. I may have to ramp my bolt. I may have to swap out my hammer. I may have to file and weld my own mags. Not interested. I'll tolerate 10-round mags. I'll buy a complete kit. But I'm not interested in a shop project :) I just want a drop-in kit including every thing I need, and no handtools necissary.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 6:48:23 AM EDT
You are reading a forum where guys like to customize the crap out of everything. Yes if you are doing a semi auto kit Colt style you will need to change the hammer. Other than that it's all drop in. Oly Arms kit is ready to go no mods or hammer or buffer changes or ramping the bolt. Just buy thier $75 mags since putting in the socom adapter block is too much trouble for you.
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