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Posted: 7/15/2003 5:40:01 PM EDT
Can You Buy and legally possess a Law Enforcement equipped AR15? If The Gun Has preban Features but is of new manufacture? I ask this because a good friend of my father is a Narcotics officer and has recently obtained a new Bushmaster in the M4 config with all the bells and whistles, but he spent his own money to purchase and did so by having a letter from his Department, Now He is promoted to a desk/investigative (no longer kicking in doors) Job and no longer needs it along with a few other specialized weapons. Its his rifle, he bought it right?, Can he sell it to me or my dad with out an act of congress, and if so is there any limitations to owning semi-auto law enforcement weapons? And are they marked so the feds dont say hey you just made a Post into your own Pre Ban , Here's your cell and orange jumpsuit.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:49:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2003 5:54:04 PM EDT by Mb121]
No LEO weapons can be owned by civilians. If the firearm was made before the 1994 Crime Bill then yes, if it is a post-ban rifle with the designation of for LE use Only (or something of that nature) and pre-ban features then no. It may be his rifle, purhcased by his own means, but it is LE only equipment. No he cannot sell it to you, if you do possess it then you will face criminal charges and your friend will lose his job and face charges too. Limitations of a LE officer possessing a AR15 post-ban with pre-ban features marked for LE use only (taken from the Bushmaster LE website): To Individual Officers wishing to order complete Bushmaster Firearms: Below are listed the specific legal requirement and limitations necessary for the purchase of complete functional weapons from Bushmaster Firearms. A letter from the Office's Department Chief, Sheriff or Shift Supervisor authorizing such purchase. This letter must state that the weapon is for the Officer's use in his/her official duties. Cost for the weapon must be billed directly to the Officer's Law Enforcement Agency. The Individual Officer may make payment to the dealer or distributor for the weapon but the invoice for said weapon must be made out to the Law Enforcement Agency. N.F.A. (National Firearms Act) weapons and short barreled weapons are available for sale only to Law Enforcement Agencies and may not be owned by Individual Officers. [b]If the Individual Officer leaves the Law Enforcement Agency, ownership of the weapon may be transferred to another Law Enforcement Agency through a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer.[/b] Any weapon sold to Law Enforcement Agencies by Bushmaster Firearms will carry a stamping on the lower receiver reading "Restricted Law Enforcement / Government Use Only" Taken from the Impact Guns website: Law Enforcement- How To Buy Weapons & Ammo For Individual Officers wishing to order 'Law Enforcement Only' Firearms or L.E. high capacity mags, the following specific legal requirements (with limitations) apply: 1. A letter from your Department Chief, Sheriff, or Shift Supervisor authorizing such purchase. This letter must state: A- The weapon/s (or magazines) are for the Officer's use in his/her official duties B- Said purchaser understands the gun cannot be resold for non-duty use C- That said buyer's record has been checked and found clear of any misdemeanor crime or domestic violence conviction D- This letter should show the Residence address of the officer. Sample Letter for Officers NOTE: we can ship the mags to you at your dept. 2. The weapon will be paid directly by the Individual Officer. 3. N.F.A. (National Firearms Act) weapons (machine guns, sub-machine guns, etc) and short barrelled weapons (rifles LESS than 16" barrel and shotguns less than 18.5") are NOT AVAILABLE to Individual and may NOT be owned by Individual Officers. (These items (transferrable only) may be purchased as civilians for your own possesion- ask us.) [b]4. If the Individual Officer leaves the Law Enforcement Agency, ownership of the weapon may be transferred to another Law Enforcement Agency through a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer, or presented to said officer by the department, after which he will own and use the firearm a he sees fit, but cannot sell the firearm to a civilian.[/b] 5. We can ship the firearm directly to the Department, to the attention of the Supervisor or Chief. We can also ship to a local FFL dealer, who can then process your required paperwork and receive the Dept. Letter. (Note: ALL restricted weapons sold to Law Enforcement Officers will carry a stamping on the lower receiver reading "Restricted Law Enforcement / Government Use Only").
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:50:50 PM EDT
He can own it as long as he is on the force, but it depends on the dept. policy. You can not own it legally.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 5:57:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/15/2003 5:59:28 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
HERE WE GO AGAIN. One more time: There is NO explicit prohibition in law that keeps you from owning a legal, post-ban configured rifle that has the LEO marking on it, PROVIDED that nobody disassembled a completed LEO marked, post-ban ASSAULT RIFLE (complete with evil features) to obtain the receiver, as it is explicitly illegal for a DEALER to disassemble an LEO assault rifle for the purpose of reselling the parts. If your local PD decided to sell the lower receiver separately from the rifle, that's THEIR business, and no law prohibits them from selling it (legally) to a civilian, nor is there any prohibition against you getting your dealer to order you a lower receiver (stripped, complete, or as an assembly) from the manufacturer with the LEO marking on it. He can also order you a complete rifle with LEO markings if it is configured as post-ban legal. THAT is precisely what the law allows. I'm SURE that someone will try to argue with me, and I have some advice that person: DON'T. You'll lose, as has everyone else before you who has challenged me on this. The law's exact wording is clear, and if you don't look it up before challenging me, you should now because otherwise you'll end up slightly embarassed and proven wrong by the letter of the law. I've fought this battle about four times so far and the score is four to zip in my favor. One more and I'm an ace. If the law doesn't SAY something is prohibited, then it's NOT prohibited. And the law doesn't say that you can't ever have an LEO marked lower receiver on your legally configured post-ban rifle. CJ Here it comes....
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 6:33:02 PM EDT
cmjohnson, Will you agree with me in that he can not own the rifle in it's current evil config?
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 6:54:38 PM EDT
LEO marking or no LEO marking, a civilian can't own a post-ban rifle configured so as to meet the definition of an assault rifle as defined by laws we are generally aware of. There are a very few exceptions to this concerning retired LEO's, but they're not very clearly defined in scope. CJ
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 6:57:33 PM EDT
it's the pre-ban features as opposed to the stampings isn't it? ((Pre-ban features manufactured during the post-ban time period? ergo the stampong and not vice versa) Labling and stamping apply to magazines only right?
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 7:12:08 PM EDT
Precisely. A mag with the LEO stamping isn't legal to own, because that's specifically mentioned as a verboten feature. Yet oddly enough, it's the DATE CODE (which has to be stamped on all post-ban high caps by law) which is the item that gets you in trouble. Very schizophrenic. CJ
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 7:45:21 PM EDT
I have been told by ATF that once the officer retires and the weapon is tranfered to him by the department the weapon must then be configured as a post ban. ???
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 9:19:39 PM EDT
The ATF officer was mistaken, or his opinion of the law doesn't match reality. The AR15 is given to the officer more or less as a gift for time in service and can be maintained in it's LEO configuration since a letter from the department is provided to the retiree.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 11:00:54 PM EDT
[B]Can You Buy and legally possess a Law Enforcement equipped AR15? [/B] Yes I can.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:05:40 AM EDT
Simple answer. Under the current law, he can only sell it to another LEO who is authorized by his employing agency to buy it. He may also sell it to an FFL. Technically, even though purchased with his own funds the Rifle belongs to the LE agency. If he were to retire, they may or may not choose to give it to him as a gift. Interestingly, if he dies, it must go back to the LE agency, be transferred in some way to another LEO, or sold back to an ffl. It can't be inherited by a non LEO under the current interpretation of the law. For this reason, all of my rifles are in post ban configuration. Its too much hassle even for an LEO to personally buy an LEO rifle.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:07:06 AM EDT
Absolutely wrong! Any person that can legally buy a firearm can own and configure a Post Ban rifle that meets the definition of an assault weapon. Heard of NFA Class III weapons? A legally transferable AR15 Registered Receiver, RDIAS, Lightning Link all exempt a rifle from the AWB because they are legally owned Machine Guns. Who's embarrassed now!
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:41:47 AM EDT
ARMYINF.... You are correct sir. I pulled up title 18 922 and heres what it says..This should cover Assault weapons and High cap mags. (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon. (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection. (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to - (A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (B) any firearm that - (i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action; (ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or (iii) is an antique firearm; (C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or (D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine. The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect. (4) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to - (A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty); (B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials; (C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a firearm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or (D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of a semiautomatic assault weapon by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary. (w) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device. (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection. (3) This subsection shall not apply to - (A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty); (B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials; (C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition, of a large capacity ammunition feeding device transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or (D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary. (4) If a person charged with violating paragraph (1) asserts that paragraph (1) does not apply to such person because of paragraph (2) or (3), the Government shall have the burden of proof to show that such paragraph (1) applies to such person. The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of this title shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1). (1)
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 7:47:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By snice: Absolutely wrong! Any person that can legally buy a firearm can own and configure a Post Ban rifle that meets the definition of an assault weapon. Heard of NFA Class III weapons? A legally transferable AR15 Registered Receiver, RDIAS, Lightning Link all exempt a rifle from the AWB because they are legally owned Machine Guns. Who's embarrassed now!
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As we weren't DISCUSSING class III weapons, but instead were discussing LEO marked assault rifles, your contribution is irrelevant. CJ
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 7:50:36 AM EDT
After the AWB sunsets, all those little "LEO/GOVT ONLY" words suddenly have no meaning, unless the weapon in question is Class III.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 8:55:34 AM EDT
Yep, and it won't matter if it's a rifle or a magazine. The LEO marking will just be decorative. The only problem thn will be that we'll have to change our terminology to describe rifles. Rather than pre-ban and post-ban, we'll have to change to pre-ban, mid-ban, and post-ban or after-ban. Or non-banned, which I like best. CJ
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:43:00 AM EDT
CMJohnson is correct in every thing he said. Forget anyone who disagrees with him. The stuff posted on Bushmaster's site is thier policy and is in regards to avoiding the Federal Excise tax being paid on the LE marked rifle and has nothing to do with how one can be legally ordered. Have the selling officer neuter the rifle of all evil featurs and then you may buy it good to go. Of course what's the point as you can buy a rifle in that non evil configuration any day.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 1:56:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Originally Posted By snice: Absolutely wrong! Any person that can legally buy a firearm can own and configure a Post Ban rifle that meets the definition of an assault weapon. Heard of NFA Class III weapons? A legally transferable AR15 Registered Receiver, RDIAS, Lightning Link all exempt a rifle from the AWB because they are legally owned Machine Guns. Who's embarrassed now!
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As we weren't DISCUSSING class III weapons, but instead were discussing LEO marked assault rifles, your contribution is irrelevant. CJ
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You changed the post. Last time I checked "all the bells and whistles" is a bayo lug, col stock threaded barrel and FH. So the answer is NO! We are not talking LEO marked. were talking LEO AW period, not you can nueter this and that. GG
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 5:22:13 AM EDT
Cruizer, Where did you get that in writting? As I said above, I had an agent tell me the same thing but I cant find it now. The only thing that I can find on what happens to the gun after retirement is taken right from 18 922 G. the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a firearm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; Thanks
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 7:53:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 8:05:28 AM EDT by rxdawg]
Absolutely wrong! Any person that can legally buy a firearm can own and configure a Post Ban rifle that meets the definition of an assault weapon. Heard of NFA Class III weapons? A legally transferable AR15 Registered Receiver, RDIAS, Lightning Link all exempt a rifle from the AWB because they are legally owned Machine Guns. Who's embarrassed now!
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The AW ban applies to SEMIAUTOMATIC firearms. The NFA registered devices you mention creates a machine gun. Since the firearm is no longer semiautomatic the AWB is irrelevant as long as the conversion device is installed. You are both right and wrong - you can own an [u]automatic[/u] weapon built upon a postban receiver and a registered conversion device, but if you remove the conversion device you must render the resulting [u]semiautomatic[/u] weapon postban compliant. As others have said, a postban receiver marked LEO only is legal to own by a civilian as long as it is configured postban.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 12:26:10 PM EDT
Good discussion. I would like to stir the pot a bit with this, however: You may want to think twice before purchasing a lower marked "Law Enforcement Only" or "US Government Property", etc. We all know that [i]most[/i] cops are not fluent in the AWB. This can be good or bad, depending on how you go about your personal business. I'm willing to bet that the majority of cops don't know the difference between a flash suppressor and a muzzle break if you held the two of them side by side. Now, marked lowers are a different ballgame. If nosey Officer Fife decides he wants to check out your rifle and its marked "Law Enforcement Only" or "Government Use Only", you may have problems. I'm not advocating not getting one (I would like to, just for the LCF) or being overly paranoid, but its something to think about, all else being equal. If you have to pay for one either way, I would go with something low profile that will attract the least amount of attention.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 12:33:36 PM EDT
Ever heard of "brinksmanship"? How about "sue for false arrest"? If you got arrested by a cop who doesn't know the law, you'd have grounds for a good lawsuit. The question isn't WOULD you win, it's HOW you'll spend the money for damages? CJ
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 12:39:52 PM EDT
cm - sure, those are all valid points. The question is how much of your time and money you are willing to gamble. Don't get me wrong - I have no love for our unconstitutional laws. Just thought I would mention this. A few hours trying to explain to a dipshit LEO that your LEO lower is not stolen can ruin a perfectly good shooting day. I live in a very rural area and believe that the likelihood of having my weapon inspected is very very low. A resident of a more urban setting may have a different likelihood, however.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:44:29 PM EDT
All the later Colt rifles I have seen with small push pins still had the screwed up trigger pins and were sear blocked by never milling out the receiver rather than the older insert way.
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 7:03:21 AM EDT
Thanks for all the input guys, Ill just have him hold onto it until atleast the AWB Sunset, Godwilling there is one. Then Ill snag it in a heartbeat. Overall it was an excellent discussion and clarifies alot about ownership and rights. Chris M
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 6:31:26 PM EDT
As the screen name may hint, I have been in law enforcement for over 30 years. Recently I transfered an "owned" Colt AR-15 9mm LEO back to the dealer and obtained a standard Bushmaster in .223. Couldn't have kept the LEO AR even if I wanted to. As Hog_Sniper related, only if the Department owned the weapon and transferred it to me upon retirement. While some Dept's might do that, mine will not. There are many fine weapons you can legally own. Why risk a potential problem that could change your life and possibly keep you from owning any. Think of the rifles you could buy instead of paying an attorney (not a slam). Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:33:36 PM EDT
That's an outstanding letter, putting in writing exactly what I have said previously. (And sometimes, getting argued with over it.) Thanks for posting it. CJ
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:05:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 4:32:16 PM EDT by Gun Guru]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: That's an outstanding letter, putting in writing exactly what I have said previously. (And sometimes, getting argued with over it.) Thanks for posting it. CJ
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Here is his question. Can You Buy and legally possess a Law Enforcement equipped AR15? If The Gun Has preban Features but is of new manufacture? After all yous BS the answer is no. Stick to the question. You must be a lawyer the way you "fixed" his question. GG
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 2:52:03 PM EDT
But the strange thing about owning a LEO weapon after retirement is you can't own post ban (LEO marked)mags. You can own pistol mags but not rifle mags. I read this while perusing the ATF regs. Strange!!!1
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:02:09 PM EDT
Yes, in the original form, the question as posed can be answered simply: A [i]civilian[/i] may not own or possess any post-ban rifle that is configured as an assault rifle as defined in 18 U.S.C 922(v). Exception: If the rifle is subject to NFA rules by installation of a duly registered autosear or lightning link. Additional exception: A retired LEO might have one if his department transferred it to him. Now I think all significant aspects of this question and its related issues have been answered well enough to suit just about anybody. CJ
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