I was looking at the Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle Course and it looked enticing.  I'm sure a lot of you have heard or looked into it too and think the same.  I have a lot of respect for Clint Smith by reputation so I wouldn't disrespect either him or the school.

However-its funny to me that as of recently law enforcement agencies have to come to discover that of all weapons to have the most lethality and dominance in an urban setting would be-dun nah!-the rifle!

For over two hundred years what has been the given weapon of Marines and Soldiers-the rifle!  Hence the rifleman's creed-"This is my rifle..."  Its funny that this seems like a great discovery when of course the rifle's inherent accurancy and range is far, far superior to any pistol and/or shotgun.  Or even the venerable H&K MP-5!!!  Sure enough I realize a lot of it is public opinion because we don't want to see the militarization of the police but we sure don't want to see them outgunned (North Hollywood bank robbery) either.  

But as far as Thunder Ranch, I would be excited to attend the school because I've heard so much about it and really put my AR-15 through its paces.  Lets see if our multi-thousand dollar carbines with space-age hoo-yahs are what they are worth!

Troy, I think he was referring to the course at Thunder Ranch, not LB's overpriced offering.

Thats because baer builds a 1911 also with the thunder ranch logo,Check out "Black Water"they are known to have courses weather and terrain that will make a crappy AR fail,see what Black Water is using for their rifle,A no frills Bushmaster flat top with an ace stock and modular fore end,its Identical to the 25th aniversary rifle,I have alot of respect for clint to,but endorsing target grade tighter than spec tolorence firearms as reliable selfdefence weapons does a diservice to the less experienced less knowledgeable shooter who will look at this equipment recomendation from a very good school as the word of god,I dont know it all but I do know I dont want a real tight 1911 or a real tight AR to defend myself with,especialy an AR they are tight enough already.

Check out Sigarms Academy in NH during the spring.The rifle range is under water at times and when I went in April, it was just a muddy mess.It'll really put your AR to the test.

No kidding!  When I saw that thing I was, like, "What in the hell is THAT thing all about?!"  I can't believe that Thunder Rance actually backs that thing.  And if I knew that, I can just imagine what real operator-types must of thought of that POS!

I have attended three courses at TR.  Handgun 1, 2, and Urban Rifle.  They were all excellent courses and well worth the money and time.

Clint is an excellent instructor and the facilities are first rate.  I would highly recommend TR.

Troy is correct about the TR Special Rifle.  It so happens that I was at TR and at supper was sitting with Clint and asked him about the rifle that was in the works.  He said something along the lines of, "If Les sends me a rifle that weighs more than 6.5 pounds, I'm taking a hacksaw to it."

But I guess marketing realities dictated that light, no-frills rifles didn't have enough profit margin in them, so a more complex rifle was approved.

It goes against everything Clint teaches about how a rifle ought to be.

Old-Painless,

Please tell the audience what you experienced at Thunder Ranch; as far as the Urban Rifle course that is.  Was it challenging?  Was it worth the cost?  How did your rifle hold up after all the abuse?  Would you recommend it to others?

Thanks!

The first week of June, I attended the Urban Rifle H.I.T. course at Thunder Ranch. Definitely more fun that it probably should have been.

Incredible facility! Excellent staff instructors! The entire school seemed to be dedicated to marksmanship as the cornerstone of the fighting mindset. I don't think that you will be sorry for spending the time or money to experience Thunder Ranch. Better hurry before Clint closes it down.

And not to contribute to the hijacking of this thread, but a comment on the Les Baer Thunder Ranch AR. My local instructor, who also teaches at TR and thereby got me and three buddies into the HIT class, also writes articles for SWAT quite a bit. The for the class, Clint asked him to run the rifle through the class. It performed flawlessly. Yes, it was too heavy. Yes, its a little upscale for the intended function as defined by the urban rifle concept. But it worked great and was really accurate. I know, I had the relative embarrassment of being right beside it for 3 days. Clint invited us to see his "collection" one evening (AWESOME!), and we asked him about the TR rifle. As oldpainless said, Clint told Les not to send him a rifle more than 6.5 lbs. Les told Clint, ok, I'll send you one without a barrel.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The Thunder Ranch urban rifle concept predated the North Hollywood shooting and the interest expressed by LEOs by a couple of years. Clint has stated that he could fill those classes before N. Hollywood.

Glad to.  I wrote a thread about it called "AR at Thunder Ranch" but it is archived and I don't know how to link to it.  It was several pages long and covered a lot of ground.  I'll cover a few points for you.


Yes, very.  Regarding the use and manipulation of the rifle, I learned a lot.  I was trained with an M-16 at Fort Polk in Basic Training, and have owned several since then.  I thought I knew a lot about the weapon system until I went to TR.

I found out that I had only scratched the surface.  I learned a lot.

Regarding the physical challenge, I was 53 years old when I went and it wore me out.[:D]  You do a lot of: Go prone and fire, stand up, kneel and fire, get up, get behind barricade and fire, get up, go prone again, etc, etc, etc.

After about the first hour, my thighs were burning.  But don't worry.  The instructors talked tough, but if you had a physical limitation, they would work with you to be sure you could do what you needed to do.

Believe it or not, loading magazines was the biggest complaint of most people.  Sore and blistered fingers were common.  We shot about 1,500 rounds that week IIRC.



Every cent.  The training was excellent, Clint's lecture was excellent, and the facilities were first rate.



I used a Colt H-Bar with iron sights.  Clint liked a rifle like mine.  He doesn't like a lot of gegaws on rifles.  He will let you use anything you want too, but if you ask for advice, he says, "Simpler is better."



Highly.  As you probably know, he is moving to Idaho (or somewhere) in about a year.  Thunder Ranch will be closed down and demolished.  (What a shame!)

Don't miss a chance to attend.  It is an experience of a lifetime.

So I'm wondering, did Clint ever share in class or in print his ideal rifle?  Or did you see the one he used?

He didn't use one in class.  He borrowed one of ours to do demonstrations.

He didn't say, "You ought to use this brand of rifle." or anything like that.

He just said to use a simple AR-type rifle, with iron sights, (anything with a battery will go dead just when you need it most), simple sling (you can use tactical slings and he will teach you to use them, but he doesn't recommend them), and by a reputable gun maker.

People in my class had ARs, AKs, H&Ks, even an M-1 carbine.  You can use any magazine fed rifle.  One guy used his FAL for one day.  But it got mighty heavy by the end of the day of holding it on your shoulder for long periods at a time.

Some folks had red dot scopes, lights, tack slings, multiple magazine attachments, etc.  Most of them had problems before the course was over.  Clint didn't say, "I told you so", he just smiled.

He said, "A good battery optical system needs a grenade pin attachment on it so that when the SHTF, you could just pull the pin and the electric optics pop off and good old iron sights pop up."

It's refreshing to see someone emphasizing skill over gadgets.  By running people through the course with what they brought, he's likely instilling confidence in those who don't have something off the cover of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement, and making a much more solid case for a simple rifle than a direct lecture could.

I'd still like to find out what he'd do to get the weight under 6.5 pounds.  Or, more importantly, what he wouldn't do.

I can give a few hints.

He would have a pencil weight barrel.  He sees no advantage to the heavy barrels.  Remember that the original ARs had very thin barrels.

He suggests standard iron sights.

He doesn't particularly like collapsible stocks because the method of clearing a bad jam involves striking the butt of the rifle on the ground hard, while pulling on the charging handle.  He says he has seen several collapsible stocks break when doing this.

He wouldn't like a big or heavy flash suppressor.  Low flash ammo accomplishes more than any flash suppressor.

I'm sure the experts here can tell us what the first ARs weighed, but I remember that they were light.  They've gotten heavier and heavier over the years.

Sounds like a project. With the proper ammo a FH might be optional, so it might even be a post-ban compliant rifle.  It'd be neat to see.  I know there have been extensive muzzle flash tests on handgun ammo, but I haven't seen any for the plain-muzzled AR.

16" SLW BM, C1 stock, iron sights....

I took a carbine with the following equipment:
PWA preban lower
Bushie upper, flattop
16" pencil barrel
vortex tac flash suppressor
iron sights on removable carry handle
M16 stock (A1 length without the trap door)

Its a sweet lightweight setup.

A picture of the rifle will eventually be in SWAT sometime. It will be in an article on camo finishes or an article on the TR H.I.T. class.

I am enrolled in the Sept. urban rifle class.  After taking the defensive handgun class last year, I knew that I would want a light rifle.  I bought my AR with this class in mind.  Bushy 16" w/fluted barrel, no brake/flash hider, A2. Very light.

I may put a eotech/aimpoint on it, but co-witnessed.  I will probably shoot a portion of the course with it turned off just to practice w/iron sights.

Are you going to T.R. or are you taking the course offered by PFDC in Pittsburg?


I think you'll find its heavier than you think.  An M4 profile would have save you more.

Both sound like good ideas.

I have known Clint for 23 years and have seen and shot his personal AR-15.  M-16 type standard upper,  original 20" bbl., trangular handguards, flash hider, M16 butt stock, standard sling.  Fairly straight forward rifle and light. Simple is better, and all that trick stuff, doesnt make you shoot any better, sans sights. Most folks who attend TR with tricked out, new improved, super blasters, with lights,tac slings, trick butt stocks, a half a dozen light rails, duel mag holders, etc.(that weight 9lbs. plus), take most of that 'stuff' off by Wednesday. But, Clint has also realized, that as some of us get older in years, red dots or some type of electronic sight is necessary.  His tenet that you have to see your target to shoot it, and you have to be able to aim at it to hit it, and only hits count; has led to him to softening his stance on electronic dot sights a few years back, when his eyes passed the age of 50. (Oh, by-the-way, his wife Heidi shoots an AR with a C-More sight.) But he still insists that you have a set of back-up adjustable sights,on the rifle and sighted in (or as best as some old eyes can sight them in).
I've attended a number of classes with Clint, all the way back to his Gunsite days.  He is a fine instructor, a great humorist (dry, very dry) and a real down to earth thinker.  The knowledge you pick up at TR about urban combat and the functioning of your AR will be enormous. It will change many of your ideas about the "perfect AR".  The plus is that all that learning can almost be secondary to the fun you will have. A week there is hard work, and the comment about sore thighs is certainly true, but that week there, with people who think alot like you, is really more of a vacation.
Be sure, if you attend one of his classes, you stay in a cabin on the ranch.  Saves you the drive to town each night and you'll enjoy the comraderie of the other class members that are staying there.
The best way to train and get in shape for TR, as it was explained to my shooting partner, is every morning get up and throw yourself on the ground, get up: repeat 50 times.
As to the comment about Clint leaving TR and moving to Idaho.  He and Heidi are moving to Oregon and opening a new school called The School of Arms.  He'll be able to spend more time with  students and less time administrating.
Hope this helps.

Going to TR, sept 11-15 I believe.  Thanks for your pics in the optics forum on the co-witnessed aimpoint, now I just need someone to post an eotech.
BTW, Heidi is a hottie.  I'm sure Clint is quite secure in everyone there knowing don't mess with her, though. [:D] When I made the reservation for the class & I was discussing what to bring, she mentioned how people come down with all this stuff on their ARs, and by Tuesday or Wed. of the course they're just ripping it all off.

If & when I go to TR, this is what I'm taking:
[img]http://www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/135trrifle.jpg[/img]
-T. Fish

I spent 3 days with Pete at the PFDC and the only thing I changed was to replace the GI sling with my tac sling before Day 2 (I couldn't take another day of the imitation GI sling).  I had my pistol grip back ON within 4 hours of the start of the class.

I would install my light as needed (normally I left it off for the daytime portions of the class).

Rifle had M4 barrel, C7 upper, Compact ACOG, Fobus forward grip (very light), and the Tactical Taylor sling (and TACM 3 as needed).

I plan on keeping it the same for Giles Stock's 3 day course this weekend (unless I can get my flattop test fired & zeroed in the next 2 days).  I would be interested in knowing how Clint teaches fighting at night w/o lights or optics.

Also would you be willing to write up a review on Clint's class when you get back?

The Les Baer 1911's are excellent pistols.

The Les Baer AR's are good for target shooting. Not as a defensive weapon.

The Thunder Ranch course is very good from what I hear. I took the Bushmaster Carbine Course at Blackwater Training Center in Moyock NC. Excellent course with lots of trigger time and good quality instructors with SpecOps and SWAT experience.

Ken Cashwell and John Russel taught my course and it was great. Ken is a good armorer and can shoot like nobody's buisness. Ditto for John. (Who is on the VA Beach PD SWAT Team) The carbine range and their Hogan's Alley are great fun to shoot. They spend most of the time at 120 yards and under (Standard urban distance) but you also work on the 1000 meter KDR.

They have trained Airforce PJs (Pararescue Jumpers, some serious high speed fellas) Rangers, S.E.A.L's and others as well as numerous LEO SWAT fellas.

A few pieces of advice for you:

1. Gadgets suck. Leave them at home
2. Get a good weapon light
3. USGI mags. USGI mags. USGI MAGS. USGI MAGS!!!
4. Stripper clips RULE.
5. Wear a turtleneck

(Those of us who have tried desperately to get a piece of hot brass out of our shirt before it burned a hole through our chest will agree...)

Having taken the course at T/R, I agree with John Waynes 5 rules! You will wear out your fingers trying to reload loose rounds, and it takes up valuable time better used hydrating yourself. I was the only one there using strippers, and I was loading mags for both myself and my wife, and still had time to drink and catch my breath between rounds. I took thirty - 30 rd. mags and 12 twenty rounders all GI and never had a mag related failure or problem, and most of mine are surplus, finish worn mags that I put green followers in. Nix on the turtleneck though, in Texas, it can still be very warm here in november and will still be in the 90's in sept unless we get a freaky cold front. Wearing a ballcap and a lite t-shirt under a collared shirt worked for me. Some of the guys were using thigh mounted mag pouches which seemed to work well, I wore pants with large, deep cargo pockets that each held two 30 round mags and retained them all right, while still giving fairly speedy access. You will need a light for night training, and you need to have it mounted on the rifle! They will train you to use a hand held one, but it is a pain in the ass, and the first thing I bought after that class was a weapon mounted lite! You will use the iron sights in conjunction with the light and learn to briefly illuminate the target while acquiring the irons and firing. This is easier than it sounds and not having to hold the light makes it a cakewalk. Tactical slings are fine, but just like gadgets, they are not going to stop the class while you sort out your gear, and you are paying for this class, and malfunctions and weapons problems take away your valuable time from class! A lot of people on this board seem to get "Professionally Offended" by Clint's advocating a bare-bones basic rifle for the class, but, you are there to learn the Basics! If you knew it all, you would'nt be paying all that money to learn from the pro's. As an old drag racer, I can say, you don't learn to race in a Top Fuel Dragster, you start out with a slower, less complicated car that allows you to learn the fundamentals at a slower pace, then with experience, you go faster. I have attended 4 classes at T/R and I have observed that an inordinate amount of gadgets do fail, usually about mid-day of day 1. If Clint tells you that your particular toy has a high failure rate, Believe it! He has no axe to grind, he won't make fun of you, he is just giving you the benefit of his experience. The LE guys that used Aimpoints had zero problems with them, but between rounds, always check to make sure nothing is getting loose, people frequently undertighten thumbscrews, unless you are Swartzenegger, use a screwdriver on the slots and get them tight. Bring a good cleaning kit, screwdiver kit, and plenty of lube, most civilian guns are severely underlubed for the task they are going to be given. I think the EO Tech would be a great addition to your rifle for this class as is the proven Aimpoint. My wife and I did it with iron, but now I know that at 100 yds, I need a optic, but I don't regret using the irons, after all, if you learn to be reasonably proficient with the irons, an appropriate optic will only improve your hit ratio. Bring an appropriate sight adjusting tool, bring two! they are cheap and you may be the only one with one! When you transition to Thunderville, wear a long sleeve shirt, as you will slide down a firemans pole with one arm controlling descent and the other holding your weapon. I got a nice road rash on the inside of my arm wearing short sleeves! If you have weak ankles you need good boots on this one!
Kneepads and arm pads are absolutley essential.Go on a mild fitness program at least a month before, doing knee bends, pushups and windsprints to help get in a little better shape, you hear more when you are not breathing like a blown horse(voice of experience here!) Bring your favorite brand of Ibuprofen, youll need it. Be prepared to have a great time... cause you will!!  These are just my observations from my limited experience there, hope it helps! P.S. a Leatherman on your belt can come in handy!

I Brought plenty of USGI 30s & 20s with me.  I had them loaded up the night before so I never needed to load magazines during the course.  Occasionally if I had the time I'd consolodate ammo (combine the ammo from two or more partially spent mags into one full magazine).  

My 'spares' were kept in a USGI .30 cal ammo can with a shoulder strap (think USGI sling with clips at each end to attach to the ammo can's handle).

Spares carried on me were either in my Cargo pockets or my Eagle single mag duty pouch (which I don't care for BTW - I've switched to the one by the Wilderness with holds the magazine closer to the body).

As pointed out by Lee, he does teach w/lights, but handheld.  From his low-light video, he has a few issues w/weapons mounted lights. 1) light draws fire. 2) light might break, stay stuck on, and cause issues with #1.  (If the space shuttle can blow up, your light can break, to paraphrase Clint).  3)  If you are pointing the light @ something, you are also pointing your gun at it, and it might be something you don't want to shoot.

I have the standard round AR handguards- is there any way to mount a light other than getting some kind of rail system?


Definitely.

I recall Surefire teaching the simultaneous use of both a hand-held light and a weapon mounted light, plus another hand-held for backup.  Then again, they sell flashlights. :)

OUCH!  We were taught these techniques as well.  Real Pain in the Posterier - especially when compared to a weapon mounted light.

Also at range (say 30-50 yards) its much more difficult to align the light to the bore.

Also a pain when you have to change magazines.

(BTW My class with Giles Stock this weekend requires a weapon mounted light AND a handheld light).


You realize this applies equally to hand held lights?


Again this is no different from a hand held light.  I can remove my weapon mounted light in a second (push button and slide foward a couple of centimeters).  Not much slower than using a hand held technique.  Plus now I can use my hand held as a BACKUP light.  Are you going to carry two lights on your belt?


True but the Shuttle is a far more complex system working under far harsher conditions (both increase the odds of failure) [;)]


Again true - but if you're using proper handheld technique and proper search technique.

Light should be where you are looking (also where weapon is pointing).  And your head should be looking at what your weapon is pointing at.  So it really doesn't matter if your light is attached to the weapon.

Besides you are following the Rule about FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO FIRE, right?


Yes.  There are a varity of methods available.

GG&G and Advance Armament produce rails that mount on the bottom handguard and have screws that go through a couple of the vent holes.  The GG&G is the better product - the AA model isn't a perfect M1913 rail and some lights won't work with it.

Bushmaster sells a 'snap on' device that allows you to mount a light at the 9:00 or 3:00 position - it snaps onto the handguards (very slick).

You could replace the lower handguard with one of the Fobus M33 handguards (that is what I use).

There are a variety of mounts that will attach the light to either your barrel or front sight post (I don't care for these - as they lack a quick release function).

There is a mount that will attach to the bayonet lug & front sight.

Or you could add a bit of weaver rail to your handguard (I've done this and it works fairly well)  I mounted my rail at 10:00  - complete directions with pictures can be found at [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/makeaflashlightmount.msnw[/url] and here you can find direction of a weaver base mount for the front sight tower [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/frontsitelightmount.msnw[/url]


Much appreciated!

Regarding light breakages and back-up lights, quoting Clint:

"Two is one.  One is none."

The issue with pointing a weapon-mounted light at something you don't intend to shoot sounds like a violation of Rule 2.

I agree with Forest.  We need to distinguish between flashlight search techniques and target aquisition.  I think Clint is worried about using the weaponlight as a regular flashlight.

Think of a handgun instead of a rifle.  We wouldn't use a weaponlight to light our way to take out the trash.  But once the presentation of the handgun is appropriate, the use of the weaponlight is as well.

All of your points are valid.

But I would point out that if a handheld light stays on or breaks it is can be discarded (if necessary). I doubt that if a weapons mounted light permanently lit you up, that you would discard your weapon.

TWIRE,
Go back and re-read what I wrote.  I can remove my weapon mounted light extreamly quickly should it 'be stuck on'.

As a matter of fact MOST weapons lights I've seen had similar capability.

The only ones w/o it were the ones with the barrel mounts (you know the ones used by the US Army) and the Millenial series which replaces the upper handguard.  Neither of which I use or recommend.