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Posted: 7/5/2003 8:51:41 PM EDT
Now there is alot of crap going around that AR's jam at the sight of a grain of sand.
We know that AKs can be put through hell and stil function...
But what is the reality of ARs? Afterall, they are the choice of the military...What exactly are their Mil-Specs?
What type of abuse can ARs handle? What are some performance tests that they undergo?
Exactly how "Tough" are AR-15s?
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 9:07:27 PM EDT
Check out this site www.isayeret.com its the web site for the IDF click on weapons ,they go through all the carbine versions new and hybrid models .Some rifles they have been using sice we sent them 35 years ago see what the israelis have to say about the M16 there primary weapon in the desert.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 9:46:20 PM EDT
I guess I am always swimming upstream. I have two SAR-1s and an SAR-3. I have had failures to eject and/or failures to feed in every one. I have 7 ARs. Three remain unfired. The other ones run like atomic clocks. I have had an issue with one DPMS upper that did not like a particular Thermold mag. My Colt uppers feed from that mag just fine, though. My 20" Govt model eats Wolf with no problem. Feeds, fires and breaks clays at 100 yds, offhand, iron sights. My 12 year old was having a problem with my M4gery Govt Carbine with a Bushy upper - but the problem was that he did not get the mag fully seated. Wasn't the rifle's fault. My Colt Sporter lightweight has never missed a beat. My ARs outperform my "AK"s every time, all the time. The only real issue is that the DPMS bolt was chrome plated, and the ejector broke.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 11:17:43 PM EDT
In 6 years in the Army, I saw exactly [b]ONE[/b] M16A1 that wouldn't run.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 12:59:15 AM EDT
I've seen and fired just about every manufacturers version of the AR. The only make i've seen act like a renegade piece of shit was an Olympic. Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS etc have performed excellently. I hear Hesse is garbage, but iv'e never operated one. I would like to examine the FN version though!
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 1:57:53 AM EDT
Look at the news, and us walking around Iraq. Strongest force in the world issued the M-16, and variants. If the gun sucked the world would know. I have watched what our heros had to, and are going through, and I can see the elements are in full effect for them to brave. I vote that the black rifle wins the contest. My Colt Pre-Bullsh#t Ban 20" eats everything, and has never hiccupped. My 2cents!
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 3:01:23 AM EDT
well seeing as most of the speacialist units here in the uk usually go with the M16, and them boys know what there doing,
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 5:08:56 AM EDT
Two main things lead to problems with choking an AR/M : leaving the dust cover OPEN while traveling and having the bolt too WET. Keeping the dust cover closed eliminates 80% of the large particle collection that leads to a problem and keeping the bolt as dry as possible stops the grit from sticking where it can build up at the head and lugs. All the stories you hear of failure can be traced to stupidity or ignorance with matainence of the weapon. The "best" test these rifles go through is basic training as far as abuse. It's not a "fool's" weapon but stands up to the hands of thousands each year.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 5:47:47 AM EDT
how tough are they..lol..obviously ya wasnt in the military,,i spent 4 years in marine corps..in bootcamp, you have your M16, and it goes everywhere you go, after a 20mile hump with an 80lb pack, the last thing im goin to do is look for a nice place to 'set' my rifle down, we damn near would drag the freakin thing down the road, they would literary get tossed and banged around, drill instructors in the field would take sumones rifle and throw it in the woods if it was left unsecure. and our m16s were so sloppy loose it wasnt funny, but sumhow a bunch of us qualified expert (highest ya can get) and i did this 4 years in a row with a rifle that i only had access to on occasion. yeah they are tough, even shootin the crappy blanks all the time, ya havent seen a dirty rifle til ya fired bout 200rounds of blanks at full auto. lol. not once did i have a jam in the marine corps even with the mags they gave us which had 0% finish on them
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 6:10:14 AM EDT
there is a reason they have dust covers. if you use one in a "dusty" environment and don't use the cover religiously you will have problems
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 6:30:13 AM EDT
And dont forget about the gas vent holes on the carrier's side that blast debris away from the ejection port before the carrier travels rearward. No other rifle does that Some can operate with debris inside the receiver, but the AR-15 is the best at keeping debris out in the first place. Solid system it is.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 11:15:19 AM EDT
Thanks for all the imput so far... Has anyone ever heard of the H&K torture tests for their USP models? Do Colt or Bushmaster do anything like that?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:22:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 2:34:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: In 6 years in the Army, I saw exactly [b]ONE[/b] M16A1 that wouldn't run.
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Ditto, except it was an A2 and it turned out to be operator error. Failure to replace firing pin before firing at the range. What a knucklehead.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 3:06:36 PM EDT
Apparently this fellow thinks the AR/M16 is worthless as a combat rifle, and claims we ARFcomers are [i]"Bevets"[/i].
....That's something to be expected. Mainly from both Liberals and AR-15/Glock Bevets.
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Liberals?! Check out his latest rant [url=http://madogre.com/News.html]here[/url] about 5-6 paragraphs down. Lockendon, AR15's are pretty damn tough. Go ahead and read this guys commentary for laugh's, but realize that the M16 has won many militaries over as their weapon of choice. I have almost been swayed by arguments like his in the past, but the IDF's choice of the M16 must mean it's worth its salt as a [b]combat weapon[/b]. One of these days I'm going to torture test my AR and document it here on ARFcom. This will include firing a few hundered rounds of ammo, pouring sand and dirt into everything and shaking it out, then run a few hundered more rounds through it. I dont doubt it will hold up.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 11:02:17 PM EDT
I am a clean freak when it comes to my AR's but I have a friend who doesn't know a cleaning kit from a baseball bat. I am the only one who ever cleans his AR ( a Colt ) and that is about once ever year or two. There have been times that it took me 3 hours to clean the damn thing it was so carbon caked and filthy...yet it still ran. Will EVERY AR run that well....probably not...but good ones from good manufacturers probably will.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 3:27:54 AM EDT
I have been issued one variant of the M16 over the last 20 years (XM16E1,M16A1,M16A2,M4A1 and prototype SPR). I've carried them in the deserts, swam oceans, jumping out airplanes, Alpine skiing/winter warefare, in the Caribbiean, Africa, Europe and all over the US. They are tough and durable weapons. De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 2:10:30 PM EDT
ARs jam if they are: 1. Overlubed 2. Dirty 3. Fed with crap ammo 4. Using a worn out extractor spring. They will still run with sand in the action, and can fire hundreds of rounds this way. I did this very thing at Blackwater. The rifle did not LIKE this, as it ran very sluggishly eventually requirning another shot of lube. But it DID run. I fired about 700 rounds a day through my AR every day of the 5 day course. The rifle ran beautifully with no jams traceable to the rifle. Even with tons of carbon buildup and all that other AR crud in the gun, it ran without a hitch. Sand caused it to run sluggishly, but it still ran. I only fired around 200 rounds in the sand. We had fired about 300 or so rounds in the morning of the day before we went to the KDR, so the gun was already very dirty. Another shot of CLP kept the gun running, (opening the action and squirting in CLP, working the bolt 3 times) but sucked up more sand yet. Was a doozy of a cleanup job that night. I only had one or two jams through around 3000 rounds in muddy and sandy conditions. Those couple of jams were because one magazine had busted feed lips, and they were very easy to clear. Other than that, my Bushmaster worked very well. Other guns there (mostly hybrid uppper and lower franken AR type guns) did not. An Armalite had chamber dimensions too tight to reliably fire the ammo that its owner brought with it. (Federal ammo. Winchester white box worked OK) So the AR works when dirty. But it does not LIKE being dirty, so you had better keep it clean if you want it to be reliable enough to save your bacon. Hope this clears the issue up...
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 2:15:56 PM EDT
Another big factor in weapon jamming is the lube used. CLP stinks like a whorehouse at low tide. Tetra or Miltech works much better. Here is an article from Blackwater on the subject: [url] http://blackwaterusa.com/btw/articles/jammed.html [/url]
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 4:42:05 PM EDT
I love my AK. And, I often wish the AR/m16 had a different gas system so that cleaning the thing would be easier and quicker. But the fact is, my Bushy AR15 is as reliable as a ballpean hammer. So long as I clean it every 2 or so shooting sessions, and I feed it quality ammo from quality mags, it runs like a champ! Tex78
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 5:10:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom_Stick: One of these days I'm going to torture test my AR and document it here on ARFcom. This will include firing a few hundered rounds of ammo, pouring sand and dirt into everything and shaking it out, then run a few hundered more rounds through it. I dont doubt it will hold up.
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Great idea. My question: how does, or does, our ARs differ from the M16, and does this effect the strength of the weapon? For example, the AR receivers have the sear block - does this make the receiver stronger, perhaps, because of the added material? I have a forged lower and 4150 steel, chrome lined upper because I wanted to get as close to military specs as possible. Are there machining specs that we just can't get as civis?
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 6:24:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 6:38:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2003 6:40:54 PM EDT by Gun_Addict]
Even if the little pill did fragment, it still can't match the lethality of a .308. Itty bitty fragments don’t penetrate very deep or cause much tissue damage or enough bleeding. (See MAGIC BULLETS) It’s simple physics and there is no amount of flat tops and vertical fore-grips that are going to change that fact. Not by a long shot. (bad pun) 5.56MM might sound cool, but it's still a wee little .22 caliber bullet.
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If he thinks the 5.56 is so worth less and tiny fragments do nothing mabey he put his money where his mouth is and voulenteer to be shot with an AR.
Only SOME of the US ammo fragments. And then again, it doesn't do that from the M-4 Carbine which is increasing in numbers in our service units and in the hands of Tactical Teds and SWAT Pup Wannabes everywhere.
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Some one should clue him into the fact that at swat engagement ranges the bullets will still have enugh volocity to fragment even if they are out of a shorter barrel. *Edited to fix qoute.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:30:22 AM EDT
HI, I was at the range yesterday and fired around 500 rounds non- stop as I had all my mags loaded.When I got home and cleaned my AR it was the dirty'est I have ever seen it, as I did not completely break it down before. My AR did not miss a beat, completely dirty it kept on firing non-stop, the BS of not being reliable is hype,Kev
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 8:34:08 AM EDT
Yeah, AR's are tough...but I usually tenderize them a bit first, then marinate in either teriyaki or plain ol' Italian dressing. Tasty. Preferred sauce for dipping? [b]A1[/b] of course... --Otter (Sorry...had to lighten it up a bit...)
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 8:58:03 AM EDT
There will always be those who say the things they do strictly for the purpose of argument. This duesche bag is one them. There is always going to be that handful of people who believe that anything smaller than .30 cal will not do the job effectively. I have no doubt that a .308 in most cases will do more damage than a .223 but does that mean that the .223 is ineffective and should not be used? Hell no. Ignore these morons at all costs. It's not worth the effort to try and argue with them.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 3:17:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun_Addict:
Even if the little pill did fragment, it still can't match the lethality of a .308. Itty bitty fragments don’t penetrate very deep or cause much tissue damage or enough bleeding. (See MAGIC BULLETS) It’s simple physics and there is no amount of flat tops and vertical fore-grips that are going to change that fact. Not by a long shot. (bad pun) 5.56MM might sound cool, but it's still a wee little .22 caliber bullet.
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If he thinks the 5.56 is so worth less and tiny fragments do nothing mabey he put his money where his mouth is and voulenteer to be shot with an AR.
Only SOME of the US ammo fragments. And then again, it doesn't do that from the M-4 Carbine which is increasing in numbers in our service units and in the hands of Tactical Teds and SWAT Pup Wannabes everywhere.
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Some one should clue him into the fact that at swat engagement ranges the bullets will still have enugh volocity to fragment even if they are out of a shorter barrel. *Edited to fix qoute.
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The AR-15/M-16 is a very reliable weapons system. That is why it is still around. Even the Russians don't use the 7.62x39mm any more. The M-16 is here to stay, and will be with us for a long time to come. The only nations that use anything else are ones that can't afford the M-16.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 3:52:40 PM EDT
Just a personal experience but, one day back in '82 we'd (The Tankers) already fought off the TT-8 gremlins and I had a chance to go downrange with Our scouts. I took along an M-203 from a buddy Who's team had already qual'd and shot the transition range with a short-handed crew. At the end of it there was a buttload of '203 and 5.56 left (Weren't the 80's great :) lol) and I put two cases of '203 and about 900 rnds of 5.56 (On an H&R '16A1 that'd already qual'd two ranges that day) down on the hill that looked threatening ;) It never missed a beat while I dumped one FA 30 after another. It WAS a mother' to clean but it ate it all :)
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 10:52:20 PM EDT
hehehe some of you are getting really fired up about this simple question. I have two ARs and i love them. I was just curious to learn some facts about their strength... Not to mention any names, 00_buckshot but if this simple question pissed you off, you really seriously need to get some friends and a life...
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