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Posted: 6/30/2003 10:37:22 AM EDT
I was thinking about the many war stories, etc. ive read and seen when you here about bravery in the face of death in a firefight and how people are able to accept the fight and face the danger. I also thought of how many police videos and convenient store hold ups you've probably seen where the officer(s) or store clerk and the bad guy(s) can be no more than 10 feet away from eachother during a gun battle and nobody gets hit. Obviously training is a big factor but I would think so is will. What are everyones thoughts on this subject. How would you face the possibility of injury/death while trying to stay calm for shot placement!

sorry so long!

If'n this here thread is in the wrong place scrap it! Just hate to leave it to the GF...Ugh!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:08:58 AM EDT
Horik, you already answered your question - training. If you have to think before reacting you're likely to be dead. Training, training...... . The military cannot identify only those with an iron will so they do the next best thing - train, train them all.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:24:15 AM EDT
We all have fear it can keep you alive. However its how we deal with that fear (stress) that determines our survivablity. You will act how you train. You should also make a few decisions ahead of time. In law enforcement we do a lot of if then thinking. For example if he does this I will do this. If he does something else I will take this route. Get the idea. PAT
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:06:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:20:54 PM EDT
I am aware of a situation where a police instuctor who worked with officers teaching a technique to disarm a perp. when at close range. His muscle memory was to take the weapon from the person, But when he took it from the officer he return it to that person. Well it happened on the street, he quickly disarmed the person then gave it back. He was shot. luckily it was not fatal.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:24:23 PM EDT
Focus and Calm is a by product of good trianning especially force on force. SimFX is one excellent method to gain this insight. I have had several opportunities to do SimFX trainnings and found it to be as about close to the real thing as you can get. next best thing would be Airsoft. if used under trainning enviroment, not bunch of kids running around shooting each other, you can also gain a lot of insight to how you would react under live fire.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:32:34 PM EDT
All great insights everyone. Thanks! Sims would be great to try sometime! One thing I think would be imperative would be the ability to accept the danger to a certain degree and not concern yourself with getting hit so to speak. By this I don't mean ignoring training, finding cover, shoot and scoot, etc. but that the more you accept the situation the more over you would have on your opponent. Like most everyone, if you can convince yourself your unlikely to get hit by rounds coming your way the more confident you could be in sending rounds "on target" the other way! Does this make sense? In other words, I think most people in a gun fight probably worry more about getting hit than hitting!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 2:59:00 PM EDT
The last time I looked at the Dept.of Justice stats on crime and shooting. The cops managed to kill between 1500-1750 criminals a year and the criminals manage to get 75-150 cops. I know a few cops, one is a weapons/marksmanship instructor, he says most cops are really crappy shots on a good day. Most criminals are crappy shots as well, why do the cops do better in shootings? Training is a huge factor. They practice using cover, point firing, reloading under stress and occasionally aiming. Most police shootings are at close range and happen pretty fast, training does save lives.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 4:00:03 PM EDT
Troy, They have found officers dead with brass in their pockets who were unable to reload in time. Its happened more than once. Others have already commented on it, but I will say it again, training keeps you alive. If reaction isn't part of your training, you are missing an important piece.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 5:17:46 PM EDT
We had an incident here in KY. recently where a police officer unloaded his Glock .45 into a guy during a call. The guy was hopped up on crack big time and came at the officer who was cornered alone in a room. The officer shot the man 12 times. The guy was cuffed at the time and had somehow got a carpet knife from his pocket and lunged from about 10 ft. or less away. You may have heard about it since there has been a big hoopla about excessive force, etc. I point this out since officers in KY are apparently TRAINED to shoot (pull trigger)till the threat is stopped. This no doubt saved the officer severe wounds though he is now UP A CREEK so to speak! Shooting a cuffed man 12 times doesn't go over well on the news!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 5:42:28 PM EDT
Focus and calm changes to terror and chaos real quick. Training just programs the mind and body that hopefully in the T & C one will be able follow those programmed steps. I once read and article about WWII soliers, saying that a low percentage went out and did the "heroic $hit" thile the mainstay hid in fear. GG
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:58:56 PM EDT
The best way to stay calm in a firefight is to stay drunk. Training is ok but just practice a lot with your weapon and stay drunk.....you'll be fine. Dean Martin was drunk all the time and he hit everyone he shot at in his movies....see there! [beer]
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 9:11:02 PM EDT
"A completely revamped set of procedures to be followed during high-risk and felony stops, with emphasis at every step on officer safety." [url]http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/newhall.html[/url] One change now taught as a result of that tragic incident is to LEAVE SPENT BRASS ON THE GROUND. [img]http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/4062/meba.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:06:58 PM EDT
If you go for a long run and immediately start shooting (at a range that is) after you stop, you mimmick the effect of stress under fire. I learned that from reading alot of tom clancy's rainbow six. I'm sure that is an excelent way to prep for the unthinkable.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:48:54 AM EDT
This from a lurker.Training times with respect to real life, nite and day training is a must. From experience, it may take more than one survived "battle" to really know how to react in real time situations. Ask some of our returning Hero's.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:42:33 AM EDT
some police training i've gone to used paintballs filled with water. the marker was not like a real gun or anything, but i heard they are getting SIm munitions. a big part of the training was not stopping the scenario because you were hit. even if you got "goggled" you were expected to keep going. if you didn't you got to do a bunch of push ups as punishment. you will react as trained. that is a fact.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:11:15 AM EDT
Just an off the wall observation, have you noticed that when TV or movies portray gangbangers, they are shown holding their guns high and sideways, with no sight alignment? What's the deal there? Is that taken from real life?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 6:26:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Prebandanna: Just an off the wall observation, have you noticed that when TV or movies portray gangbangers, they are shown holding their guns high and sideways, with no sight alignment? What's the deal there? Is that taken from real life?
View Quote
I would like to think that no one is that stupid. I think that the sideways gun thing is a product of Rap ablumn covers and hollywood bullshit. Then again, I'm no expert on gangbangers. :)
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:07:53 AM EDT
Off-topic, but I've heard the sideways shooting style is used by SWAT officers using a shield with a view port while holding a pistol. This brings the sights into view of the port - but I think a laser sight would be more effective. I have no idea how or why gangbangers started using this stance, yo! About the Newhall incident, is it true that one of the CHP officers was found with pockets full of his spent brass?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:08:42 AM EDT
i've actually seen on one of those "real tv" shows a couple of 'bangers' holding up a convenience store and trying to shoot the clerk holding their pistol sideways and up, they managed to miss 5 or 6 times from about 10 feet
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