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Posted: 6/23/2003 3:01:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2003 3:02:33 PM EDT by gj]
Any one here think it possible for .223 to out perform 308 for bullet drop and wind drift ?

Next ?
What or how well would a .223 75 gr. hornady Amax Balistic tip do for sniping,,, say if it hit at 1000yrds at say 1,200 fps.

Link Posted: 6/24/2003 5:04:57 PM EDT
Bullet drop, quite possibly. Wind drift, not a chance. 5.56 rounds are limited in powder charge by the size of the case. The dimensions of the chamber are simply too small to allow a large enough charge. 308 on the other hand dosen't have that problem. In addition the bullet is usually three times the weight of a 5.56 round and is much less affected by the wind. In terminal ballistics, 5.56 has run out of power at 600 yards for military or police purposes. As a target round, as long as the bullet stays supersonic as it passes through the target it's usable. At 1,000 yards you had better be really good at reading the wind.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 10:52:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 12:07:58 AM EDT by gj]
Sorry but it also drifts in the wind less than this 308 load above due to its sleek and high balistic coeficient. 10 mph wind drift at 1000yrds 308= 108 inches .223= 96.37 inches
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:46:23 AM EDT
You're right about the .223 being smaller. That means the wind can apply a LITTLE less force on it, BUT... The 308 has much more mas (as previously mentioned). So, in F = m x a, The 308 will have less lateral acceleration due to the wind(wind drift) than the 223. The mass of the 308 is 3 times greater than the mass of the 223, but the surface area (proportional to the force) of the 223 is not 3 times less than that of the 308.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:58:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gj: Sorry but it also drifts in the wind less than this 308 load above due to its sleek and high balistic coeficient. 10 mph wind drift at 1000yrds 308= 108 inches .223= 96.37 inches
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I call bullshit on this. If there is a 5.56 NATO chamber round that has less wind drift than the 7.62 NATO, I've never seen it. I submit the following as my proof: http://www.boomershoot.org/general/AccuracyWind.htm http://www.snipercentral.com/223.htm http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm For the record, I'm a former Army grunt and MP. I shot on my ARCOM service rifle team and was a small arms instructor. I shoot a 5.56 service rifle rifle in both high power and service rifle classes. I don't know where you got you ballistic info, but it's three kinds of wrong.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:44:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 5:59:51 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By gj: Sorry but it also drifts in the wind less than this 308 load above due to its sleek and high balistic coeficient. 10 mph wind drift at 1000yrds 308= 108 inches .223= 96.37 inches
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[red]I call bullshit on this.[/red] If there is a 5.56 NATO chamber round that has less wind drift than the 7.62 NATO, I've never seen it. I submit the following as my proof: http://www.boomershoot.org/general/AccuracyWind.htm http://www.snipercentral.com/223.htm http://www.snipercentral.com/308.htm For the record, I'm a former Army grunt and MP. I shot on my ARCOM service rifle team and was a small arms instructor. I shoot a 5.56 service rifle rifle in both high power and service rifle classes. I don't know where you got you ballistic info, but it's three kinds of wrong.
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[b]Sgt_Gold[/b] Thank you for you former service as a grunt and mp! But you need to argue with the sierra bullet company and there infinity ballistic program and also point blank ballistic programs which both concur the same.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:20:35 AM EDT
Since I'm not going to buy the Sierra program, what two bullets are you comparing and what are the ballistics? There are alot of 5.56 and 7.62 bullets out there. Are these out of a bolt gun? A custom wildcat rifle? The numbers just don't hold up to real world applications. What is the velocity of both rounds at 1,000 yards?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:55:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: Since I'm not going to buy the Sierra program, what two bullets are you comparing and what are the ballistics? There are alot of 5.56 and 7.62 bullets out there. Are these out of a bolt gun? A custom wildcat rifle? The numbers just don't hold up to real world applications. What is the velocity of both rounds at 1,000 yards?
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26" barrels 308,150gr match coe:.397 2900 fps. 425.54 " drop at 1000 yrds. 1092.2 fps.at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 2937fps. 375.75 drop at1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds Sierra Infinity blst program
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:12:57 AM EDT
I always thought the most heavily weighted facter in determining wind drift was the TIME OF FLIGHT. Usually which ever bullet is exposed to the wind the least time drits the least.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:33:36 AM EDT
You're nuckin futs! They can spew all that they want from some program but anyone who has fired these weapons in contrast in the real world will tell you different.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 7:59:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 9:26:58 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
Originally Posted By spudley112: You're nuckin futs! They can spew all that they want from some program but anyone who has fired these weapons in contrast in the real world will tell you different.
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Yup! This is kind of a stupid question. The main factor in trAjectory is the Ballistic Coefficient, everything else being equal. The greater the mass, the greater the BC, everything else being equal. The larger the diameter the greater the mass, hence, the greater the BC. 2 bullets of the same shape but one having twice the diameter will have 4 times the mass. That's why an artillery shell will fly accurately 20 miles, a .50 cal BMG will fly accuratley 1 mile, a .308 1000 yards, etc. etc....again [b]EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL[/b]. Ya, a .223 74 grain Amax will out "perform" a .308, 110 grain, round nose. [rolleyes] Edited to add, everything else being equal.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:11:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 8:12:28 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By gj:
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: Since I'm not going to buy the Sierra program, what two bullets are you comparing and what are the ballistics? There are alot of 5.56 and 7.62 bullets out there. Are these out of a bolt gun? A custom wildcat rifle? The numbers just don't hold up to real world applications. What is the velocity of both rounds at 1,000 yards?
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26" barrels 308,150gr match coe:.397 2900 fps. 425.54 " drop at 1000 yrds. 1092.2 fps.at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 2937fps. 375.75 drop at1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds Sierra Infinity blst program
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A couple of minor points: 1) Why look at either round at 1000 yds ?? When the bullet drop is considered is either practical ?? 2) 26" barrrels sound like bolt-guns. 3) I question the program - GI in is still GO out. (GIGO)
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:19:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By inkaybee: I always thought the most heavily weighted facter in determining wind drift was the TIME OF FLIGHT. Usually which ever bullet is exposed to the wind the least time drits the least.
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You are partially right. The longer a bullet takes to get to the target, the more it can travel due to wind drift. But you also have to take into consideration how fast the wind is causing it to move laterally. The more mass a bullet has, the harder it is for the wind to get it moving side to side, so a heavier bullet generally has less wind drift.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:36:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: 26" barrels 308,150gr match coe:.397 2900 fps. .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 2937fps. 3) I question the program - GI in is still GO out. (GIGO)
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Believe the program. Look at the BCs you posted. That tells the story. Compare the 75 grain Amax to a 180 grain Sierra Match King or something with a similar BC.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:29:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 9:33:23 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: 26" barrels 308,150gr match coe:.397 2900 fps. .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 2937fps. 3) I question the program - GI in is still GO out. (GIGO)
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Believe the program. Look at the BCs you posted. That tells the story. Compare the 75 grain Amax to a 180 grain Sierra Match King or something with a similar BC.
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[b]OK[/b] 308 180gr match coe:.496 2650 fps. 434 inch drop at1000yrds 1224 fps at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 2937fps. 375.75 inch drop at 1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds .223 still the winner.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:50:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gj: 308 180gr match coe:.496 [red][b]2650 fps[/b][/red]. 434 inch drop at1000yrds 1224 fps at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 [red][b]2937 fps[/b][/red]. 375.75 inch drop at 1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds .223 still the winner.
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What part about [b][size=6]EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL[/size=6][/b] don't you understand?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 1:44:56 PM EDT by greco]
Many world-class shooters and Olympic games shooters seem to think a slower bulet deflects less. That is why The best .22 rimfire ammo is not hyper-velocity stuff. For an example, stick your hand out of a car window doing 20 mph, then doing 70 mph while angling it up and down. Also, a spire point boat-tailed heavy .223 just might outperform a blunt .308 with a flat base. Also ballistic co-efficient doesn't always relate to mass....some .375 bullets are in the .400 range, while not many .30 cal and smaller can get those numbers, and some BIG bores can't get those BC numbers because they are never constructed for long shots.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:40:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 1:56:28 PM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked:
Originally Posted By gj: 308 180gr match coe:.496 [red][b]2650 fps[/b][/red]. 434 inch drop at1000yrds 1224 fps at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: .435 [red][b]2937 fps[/b][/red]. 375.75 inch drop at 1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds .223 still the winner.
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What part about [b][size=6]EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL[/size=6][/b] don't you understand?
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[b]Halfcocked[/b] Your name fits you well!!!!!! Load up a 180gr match-308 that will fly at 2937fps and we will all visit you in the hospital or mourge. [b]Now do [red]you[/red] understand EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL ?????????????????[/b]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 1:59:22 PM EDT
greco: If the ojive and length to diameter ratio and all around shape are the same the larger diameter bullet will have a higher BC. Mass is only 1 part but the shape is the other part. For the same shape bullet made of the same density material the larger diameter one will have a higher BC. gj: My Sierra list a max velocity for a 69 grain .223 Sierra MK at 2800 fps. Not 2937. What reloading manual are you using. Now I don't have data for Berger VLDs but they more closly fit the ojive and profile of the Amax. They would out perform that .223 Any body have a Hornady manual that can compare a Hornady .308 Amax to the .223 Amax?
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:29:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 2:30:46 PM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: greco: If the ojive and length to diameter ratio and all around shape are the same the larger diameter bullet will have a higher BC. Mass is only 1 part but the shape is the other part. For the same shape bullet made of the same density material the larger diameter one will have a higher BC. gj: My Sierra list a max velocity for a 69 grain .223 Sierra MK at 2800 fps. Not 2937. What reloading manual are you using. Now I don't have data for Berger VLDs but they more closly fit the ojive and profile of the Amax. They would out perform that .223 Any body have a Hornady manual that can compare a Hornady .308 Amax to the .223 Amax?
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What barrel length did sie. list? Im using 26" barrels. You want the coe: of a .30 Amax its 150gr .435 168gr .475 180gr .495 Hornady load book
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:32:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 2:33:25 PM EDT by Halfcocked]
gj: Here is a same, same comparison. Sierra 150 grn HPBT MK. Sectional density .226 BC=.450>2600>.443>1800>.417 Max advertised muzzle velocity from Sierra reloding manual=2900 fps. Sierra 80 grn HPBT MK. Sectional density .228 BC=.420>2200>.400>1800>.393 Max advtertised muzzle velocity from Sierra reloading manual=2600 fps. 1000 yards Velocity Drop in. .308 1092fps 425" .223 1045fps 526" See. .308 wins.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 2:49:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 2:50:42 PM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: gj: Here is a same, same comparison. Sierra 150 grn HPBT MK. Sectional density .226 BC=.450>2600>.443>1800>.417 Max advertised muzzle velocity from Sierra reloding manual=2900 fps. [red]26" barrel[/red] Sierra 80 grn HPBT MK. Sectional density .228 BC=.420>2200>.400>1800>.393 Max advtertised muzzle velocity from Sierra reloading manual=2600 fps. [red]20"barrel[/red] 1000 yards Velocity Drop in. .308 1092fps 425" .223 1045fps 526" See. .308 wins.
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[b]308 26" barrel .223 20" barrel Somthing stinks here any body smell a rat?[/b] [b]HALFCOCKED[/b] SORRY .223 Wins
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:20:40 PM EDT
[Homer Simpson]DOH![/Homer Simpson]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:26:12 PM EDT
OK. From Alliant Reloading site. Both 24" barrels. Sierra HPBT MK bullets Mv v@1000yards Drop in. 69 grn 2956 979 515" 168 grn 2665 1147+ 477" .308 Win. wins.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:46:48 PM EDT
I think the moral of the story is that while 5.56 bullets have come a long way, they still fall short of the 7.62 and 6.5 rounds as far as wind is concerned. Tne new sniper round that everyone seems to be going to is the .338 Lapua.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 6:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 6:59:04 PM EDT by 1911ar-15]
For whatever's worth... [url]http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122731&highlight=camp+perry[/url] Love 'em or hate 'em, ARs in .223 ARE winning 1000yd matches, going toe to toe with M1As.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:04:01 PM EDT
don't try to kill anything at 1000 yards with it. it'll bounce off their head... that being said, maybe the reason you aren't understood when you say "everything else being equal" is because you need to say.."ceteris paribus" instead. [;)]
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:24:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 11:29:40 PM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: OK. From Alliant Reloading site. Both 24" barrels. Sierra HPBT MK bullets Mv v@1000yards Drop in. 69 grn 2956 979 515" 168 grn 2665 1147+ 477" .308 Win. wins.
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[b]Halfcocked:[/b] Yet another change to make the 308 look better!!! .223 from 75 gr Amax to 69 gr something or another Why not list a .223 round ball musket load,, even better for you yet!!!! I concede out of pure fustration!!!! 308 wins ,,, yeper!!!! [usa] God Help us all!!!!
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:44:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 11:52:23 PM EDT by gj]
[b]1911ar-15[/b] Thanks!!! Good to know there is more than ballistic programs backing up the .223at 1000yrds. I like the comment that it took the.223, 8yrs to surpass what took the 308, 30 yrs to establish!!! For whatever's worth... [url]www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122731&highlight=camp+perry[/url]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:45:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 3:47:14 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
Why don't just compare a .308 Amax to a .223 Amax like I asked for some 8 odd posts ago? Until you do you're just comparing an apple to an orange.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:43:14 AM EDT
Like any sane person on the planet I would not choose a .223 for sniping at 1000yds, but if I HAD to make the shot, keep in mind that a 75gr bullet is still going at ~1200fps at that distance. Compare that with a .22LR (40gr at 1100fps at the muzzle), and it's pretty obvious that you are going to hurt quite bad. And you can show ballistic numbers all you want, the plain fact is that in actual competition ("real world"), the .223 is holding its own just fine (and actually winning) against the .308
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:05:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 5:34:49 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: Why don't just compare a .308 Amax to a .223 Amax like I asked for some 8 odd posts ago? Until you do you're just comparing an apple to an orange.
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[b]Halfcocked:[/b] Because you [size=5]fool[/size=5], i couldnt find a 75 gr .30 bullet, with a.435 BC... If you look back,,, i did go one better a,,, .30 bullet with a higher BC. than the Amax..... 308 180gr match coe: [red].496[/red] 2650 fps. 434 inch drop at1000yrds 1224 fps at 1000 yrds .223 75gr Amax coe: [red].435[/red] 2937fps. 375.75 inch drop at 1000yrds 1251.3 fps at 1000 yrds What barrel length did sie. list? Im using 26" barrels. You want the coe: of a .30 Amax its 150gr .435 168gr .475 180gr [red].495[/red] [b]I see your, Still earning your name every post.[/b]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 5:59:52 AM EDT
Comparing 308 to 223 is like comparing a Geo to an 18-wheeler. One is made to be small, easy to use. The other is meant to get the job done, and get it done in one trip. 223 is made as a target round for soldiers who can't handle normal recoil. 308 is a slightly less potent 30-06 that can be used in assault rifles, but still retains its long range killing potential and accuracy. Also, what kinds of barrels were being used? Were they made on the same mill, and hardened at the same time (to ensure hardening quality)? To they have the same imperfections? This can be equated to comparing different fuels/oils in different model cars(and engines).
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:39:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 6:46:33 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Andreuha: Comparing 308 to 223 is like comparing a Geo to an 18-wheeler. One is made to be small, easy to use. The other is meant to get the job done, and get it done in one trip. 223 is made as a target round for soldiers who can't handle normal recoil. 308 is a slightly less potent 30-06 that can be used in assault rifles, but still retains its long range killing potential and accuracy. Also, what kinds of barrels were being used? Were they made on the same mill, and hardened at the same time (to ensure hardening quality)? To they have the same imperfections? This can be equated to comparing different fuels/oils in different model cars(and engines).
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I m just curious to how the 75 gr amax would actually perform for terminal damage at 1000 yrds due to its poly tip and thin jacket i (Think) it could be quite supprising as long as no hardcover needed penetration. As far as the barrels are concerned i think you already know that answere.but they both were 26"ers. I THINK! as an in the open sniper round it would do very well against the 308 with a HP match bullet.And possibly even better> . Personaly i would love to see some real life terminal testing or tests on the .223 WITH the 75grAmax but realize prob never will! gj.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 7:10:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 7:17:09 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
gj: Humor me. Try this one in your Infinity Software. From Berger Bullet web site. 308 CAL 155 GRAIN VLD ID: 30-155 VLD Category: Bullets Very Low Drag Recommended twist rate is 1/14 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.484 Boat tail
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:09:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 8:10:25 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: gj: Humor me. Try this one in your Infinity Software. From Berger Bullet web site. 308 CAL 155 GRAIN VLD ID: 30-155 VLD Category: Bullets Very Low Drag Recommended twist rate is 1/14 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.484 Boat tail
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What velocity? Im sure you going to want 3500 fps,, right!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:42:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gj: I m just curious to how the 75 gr amax would actually perform for terminal damage at 1000 yrds due to its poly tip and thin jacket i (Think) it could be quite supprising as long as no hardcover needed penetration. As far as the barrels are concerned i think you already know that answere.but they both were 26"ers. I THINK! as an in the open sniper round it would do very well against the 308 with a HP match bullet.And possibly even better> . Personaly i would love to see some real life terminal testing or tests on the .223 WITH the 75grAmax but realize prob never will! gj.
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The problem with using target bullets for actual combat is that they are not designed to fragment. There have been a number of tests of the Sierra HPBT match rounds and they just don't cause the kind of damage that the military is looking for. Because of this kind of problem, the U.S. military has droped the prohibition against hunting style hollow point bullets for SOME sniping applications. This has been covered in other threads and related to the extended ranges that were encountered in Afganland. Can SOME 5.56 rounds compete and win against 7.62's in target shooting? Yes. Do I want to try and kill someone at 1,000 yards with my M-16 or SPR? No f@#$%!g way! The target loads needed for a 1,000 yard 5.56 are single load only and require a custom throat to allow the longer rounds to chamber. In addition the 7.62 round is almost three times the weight of the 5.56 round, which will cause more damage even at the lower velocity's encountered at longer range.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:48:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gj: What velocity? Im sure you going to want 3500 fps,, right!
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Na. Max advertised velocity from Sierra's book for a 155, .308 is 2900fps. Also to keep things interesting here's a Berger 75 grn VLD .223 (.224) with a little better BC. 224 CAL 75 GRAIN VLD ID: 22-75 VLD Category: Bullets Very Low Drag Coated with the Berger process Recommended twist rate is 1/9 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.448 Boat tail
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:49:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 9:50:57 AM EDT by gj]
sgt gold : I agree only if the 308 will do more than just punch a hole, such as hitting some dense bone where as the Amax although only 75 gr is more like a varmint bullet and will almost guarentee fragmentation.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:51:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 9:52:46 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
...and while you got the puter warmed up here's one that I've ordered for my AR10 that I hope to run at 2800 fps or so. .308 CAL 168 GRAIN VLD ID: 30-168 VLD Category: Bullets Very Low Drag Recommended twist rate is 1/13 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.512 Boat tail
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:56:09 AM EDT
1/2 cocked: Ill use the berger 80vld closer bc yet.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:08:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: The problem with using target bullets for actual combat is that they are not designed to fragment. There have been a number of tests of the Sierra HPBT match rounds and they just don't cause the kind of damage that the military is looking for.
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What? Is that not what the 77 grn OTM is?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:48:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 10:49:16 AM EDT by Sgt_Gold]
inkaybee posted: What? Is that not what the 77 grn OTM is? Gj posted I agree only if the 308 will do more than just punch a hole, such as hitting some dense bone where as the Amax although only 75 gr is more like a varmint bullet and will almost guarentee fragmentation. My Reply; Are we talking about match target bullets or hunting rounds? None of the target bullets are designed to fragment or expand in tissue. The small hollow point used on match bullets is there to stabilize the bullet, not to cause expansion. The A-max is a TARGET bullet, not a combat round. Hornady dose not make a hunting bullet in 5.56 (.223) heavier than 70 gr, or at least they don't list it on their web site. The heaviest .223 hunting bullet on the Sierra web site is 63 gr. Simply put there is no long range 'killer' bullet in .223. All the real slippery stuff exists in the 'target' catagory. There is some TAP ammo from different manufacturers, but it's designed for shorter 'real world' ranges of under 400 yards.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:11:20 AM EDT
Sgt_Gold Wake up and read tha ballistic gelatin tests. 77 grain Sierra match kings and 75 hornady boat tail hollow points are fragmenting extreamly well. Gj - I don't think the A Max can be seated to mag lenght.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:21:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 11:28:03 AM EDT by gj]
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: inkaybee posted: What? Is that not what the 77 grn OTM is? Gj posted I agree only if the 308 will do more than just punch a hole, such as hitting some dense bone where as the Amax although only 75 gr is more like a varmint bullet and will almost guarentee fragmentation. My Reply; Are we talking about match target bullets or hunting rounds? None of the target bullets are designed to fragment or expand in tissue. [blue]EXCEPT ONE I KNOW OF!!![/blue] The small hollow point used on match bullets is there to stabilize the bullet, not to cause expansion. The A-max is a TARGET bullet, not a combat round. Hornady dose not make a hunting bullet in 5.56 (.223) heavier than 70 gr, or at least they don't list it on their web site. The heaviest .223 hunting bullet on the Sierra web site is 63 gr. Simply put there is no long range 'killer' bullet in .223. All the real slippery stuff exists in the 'target' catagory. There is some TAP ammo from different manufacturers, but it's designed for shorter 'real world' ranges of under 400 yards.
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sgt gold : the Amax does fragment and veeeery well just ask the cottontail i shot at 533yrds and the p-dog at 603 yrds. and you should see what it does to yotes! And as almost everyone knows here, it also is used for long range target. No slippery stuff here with the Amax! If there is a problem using the Amax long range it will be that it fragments to easy!!! Ive heard from hornady that Black hills is purchacing the Amax from them now.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:42:37 AM EDT
From http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ Q. So are heavier rounds dead for self-defense purposes? Not really, no. In fact, some more recent work suggests that some heavier, lower velocity rounds are superior in terms of wound ballistics. Current tests of newer, magazine sized 75, 77, 87 and even 100 grain rounds show faster yaw in ballistic gel and much more dramatic fragmentation than M855. Some 75gr open tip, match bullets have performed very well in law enforcement use over the past 5 years or so. Additionally, 77gr open tip match bullets seem to be performing very well for the U.S. military in combat operations since September 11th. Also showing great promise is the 87 gr P.R.L. match round. Some of these heavier bullets, probably because of their length, maintain their fragmentation down to below 2100 fps and as a result have a much longer range of fragmentation, out to as far as 300 yards. I stand corrected on the BTHP. However, get it through your heads people, the .223 round is NOT NOT NOT a 1,000 yard killer.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:27:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: From http://www.ammo-oracle.com/ Q. So are heavier rounds dead for self-defense purposes? Not really, no. In fact, some more recent work suggests that some heavier, lower velocity rounds are superior in terms of wound ballistics. Current tests of newer, magazine sized 75, 77, 87 and even 100 grain rounds show faster yaw in ballistic gel and much more dramatic fragmentation than M855. Some 75gr open tip, match bullets have performed very well in law enforcement use over the past 5 years or so. Additionally, 77gr open tip match bullets seem to be performing very well for the U.S. military in combat operations since September 11th. Also showing great promise is the 87 gr P.R.L. match round. Some of these heavier bullets, probably because of their length, maintain their fragmentation down to below 2100 fps and as a result have a much longer range of fragmentation, out to as far as 300 yards. I stand corrected on the BTHP. However, get it through your heads people, the .223 round is NOT NOT NOT a 1,000 yard killer.
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Maybe????? [naughty]
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 12:48:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: I stand corrected on the BTHP. However, get it through your heads people, the .223 round is NOT NOT NOT a 1,000 yard killer.
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We agree that there are better choices for sniping at 1000yds (heck, I would rather have a .338 Lapua than a .308 Win), but still keep in mind that a 75gr (with a 2750 fps muzzle velocity) will do at least as much damage at 1000yds as a .22LR at the muzzle. I don't know about you, but I sure as heck don't want to be shot with a .22 rimfire. Too many coffins have been populated thanks to that tiny round... Please stop thinking that the .223 is harmless at that range!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:33:03 PM EDT
From Cor-Bon's website... 223REM 55gr JHP 3200fps/1251ftlbs vs. 308WIN 125gr JHP 3150fps/2755ftlbs Nearly identical speed but with over twice the weight and impact energy? I like my AR, but .308 takes the cake.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:47:19 PM EDT
[lolabove] At a thousand yards? Why not 2000 yards then? Are you crazy? Half the people here live in states you can't even shoot as something a thousand yards away due to the terrain let alone see it at that range. Call in an artillary strike if you're shooting at something 3000 feet away. You people crack me up!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:29:16 PM EDT
Well, I can tell you that I am trying to sell my STG FALs to support my 223 addiction. THe ammo is lighter and smaller so I can carry more and in my area a 223 in 20" will fit the bill in 90% of shooting. Matter-o-fact, this is why I like my AUG so much, I can throw on a 24" HB with built in bipod and brake in 1/7 and throw some heavy weight rounds easily. It is my belief (without actually measuring) that the AUG mags allow a longer round. I will measure later now that my curiosity is enough. SorryOciffer
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