Out shooting today with 2 other guy's Bump firing someone call's the sheriff because they think we have Full-auto's.....deputy's call out their armor' who look's over ALL OUR WEAPONS.......He find's M-16 carriers in 2 of our AR's I had no idea.....Bought parts kits on-line.....so anyway he's going to call ATF on monday to see if we have a problem....

What do you think????????

Lets see pics of the carriers, especially the bottoms...

I can't take pic's but after looking at them and looking at "regular one's" they are not the same.

I take it he took down your name and address........as to what I think, it's not looking good, if you indeed have a real M16 bolt carrier, I kinda doubt it  because those will cost more then a AR carrier. this is off their web site concerning AR15 and M16 parts.........

".IMPORTANT INFORMATION CONCERNING

AR-15 TYPE RIFLES


ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the five M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.


Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.


Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.


In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.


It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only.


Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF Criminal Enforcement Office. Our telephone numbers are listed in the "United States Government" section of your telephone directory under the "United States Treasury Department."

------------------------------------------------

the sticky part is....

[i]in addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person[/i]

[i]In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.[/i]



check this link out on the differences of M16 and AR parts

http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/

if you do have a real M16 bolt carrier....... I'd check out the trigger assembly for any more surprises.

[url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440]Read_This[/url]

I guess you may be able to settle this discussion once and for all.

Did the sherrif seize the AR's?

You do realize that Class 3 firearms are completely legal in WI, don't you?  Where were you bump firing that would draw the attention of the Sheriff?

I personally think you'll probably just get a reprimand and at most they'll confiscate the carriers.

Do let us know what happens though.

The police took nothing... they went from 4 officers to 1 real quick. My feeling is if they thought we were breaking the law in any way we would have been taken down right-now with no ?'s asked....let alone been allowed to keep our "Illegal weapon's."

PS Hope my next REPLY is not from FEDERAL PRISON

[sniper2]             [headbang]

i guess the big question we all wanna know is, was the carriers M16 or AR15???

They were in fact M-16 I am not playing dumb but I really had no idea what I had.....I bought as a complete upper about 2 years ago and now.....WOW HERE WE GO

My suggestion is to change out the damn carriers before the ATF comes over.  You can claim that they were in there all along.  

Or better yet, since it won't cost anything, grind back the bottom front edge of the underside of the carrier, where it would trip the auto sear in an M16, about 1/4-3/8 inch. Then you can look them in the eye and say, "Yessir, that's the carrier that the deputy looked at when he inspected the rifle" and be telling the truth; and be perfectly legal.

What county and/or locality if you don't mind my askin?


Legally, an M16 carrier in itself does not make a full auto rifle. Now, if you had any other M16 parts, you may have a problem.

no other parts just the carrier which I might add came with the "post -ban" upper I bought about 2 years ago.

You've got nothing ot worry about.

A carrier in itself cannot permit full auto operation, and is therefore legal.

If they tell you otherwise, get a lawyer.

Yes, get a lawyer, i.e., be a martyr.

Do you have $50-100 grand around to spend on your defense?  Even if you win that's not a good outcome.

I would have offered to let him shoot my rifle, then and there as soon as he started asking questions. He would have figured out very quickly they weren't Full Auto Capable. I wonder if this would have ended the inquiry?

I agree with Phil on this one,even thought you broke no laws and was just exercising your rights as an American... Better to hand over our rights than cost us money.  [coffee]

I disagree entirely.


You would rather play dead and get charged with a felony?

We all know the laws are very clear. An M16 carrier is perfectly legal. IF they try to charge you with possession of an unregistered machinegun, or anything of that sort, why would you not want to get a lawyer?

Maybe we are on different levels here. I would show them that the rifle is incapable of full auto fire. Then i would show them the exact AFT regs. That's where i tell them to take a hike.

The bolt carrier has a cutaway on top and bottom.  The lower back lip is, on an M16, what trips an autosear.

On the M16 carrier, the top and bottom toward the read are the same length.

On the AR15 carrier, that bottom section is shorter, or possibly removed altogether) so that there is nothing that can possibly trip an autosear.

Additionally, most AR15 carriers have a ramp machined under the bottom slanting from the front up toward the firing pin, exposing more of the head of the firing pin.  That ramp, combined with a notch on the front top of the hammer, is supposed to tie up the action if the disconnector does not catch the hammer, or is the disconnector is removed or deactivated, preventing a runaway slamfire condition, by the notch catching on the head of the firing pin.

The notch and ramp cause malfunctions on some AR15's, and are fixed by using an unnotched hammer, and unramped carrier.

It has been deemed that it is no longer necessary to ramp the bolt carrier and notch the hammer in order to be legal AR15 parts, though the lip at the back underside of the carrier still could be machined back.  Such parts kits are around now.

Perhaps you have one like this?  Is there no ramp cut, but still the lower lip in back is cut back, not even with the top?  If so, it is still an AR15 carrier.

I hear ya,Nam. I was joking in my earlier post. I can't understand why some people are so easily buffaloed by the ATF. Like an prev. post suggested,have the LEO fire the weapon and get a signed statement from him on his findings,witnesses as well start the paper trail right there! I don't think anything will come of this other than the standard letter from the ATF stating that you are walking on thin ice with hot shoes.

My letter to the ATF:




6-23-03
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226


Dear Sirs,

I would like to know the legalities of using an M16 carrier in an AR15 rifle.  This rifle has semi auto trigger, disconnector, hammer and safety.  It does not contain a drop in auto sear or an auto sear and does not have a hole drilled for an auto sear.  It will not and cannot fire in a fully automatic mode with an M16 carrier installed.  I do not own any other M16 parts or a drop in auto sear.

I would like to know if I am in violation of the National Firearms Act by using this M16 carrier in my semi auto AR15 if no other parts are M16 and it cannot in any way be made to fire more than one shot per trigger pull.

If this is illegal then I would like to know the exact amount of metal that must be removed in millimeters or inches from the underside of the bolt carrier to no longer be considered an M16 carrier.

If there is no set amount of material that has to be removed because the only requirement is that it cannot trip an auto sear then why is it illegal in the first place since the rifle cannot function as a full auto with the parts installed?

I hope I do not come across as having a condescending tone.  I just want to know the actual laws pertaining to my carrier.  If it helps any my trigger set is a Knight’s Armament 2 stage, semi auto, match trigger.  I would like to use the M16 carrier as it covers the firing pin, which keeps my expensive match trigger set from contacting the firing pin, and lets it slide down the ramp covering the firing pin, which an AR15 carrier lacks, and the weight of the carrier aids reliability.

If I were allowed to use an M16 bolt carrier I would not even consider the thought of owning other M16 parts.  Thank you for your attention to my question.

Sincerely,


Devron Limerick



We shall see what they say.....

[devil]

OK, I've been following this thread for a while, and must pose the following question: if bolt carriers are such an issue, why then did my brand-new, post-ban Bushmaster M4A3 arrive with the bolt on the left, while the 16" M4 post-ban upper came with the *proper* AR-15 bolt on the right?

In other words, if there really is a legal issue with these carriers, how is it that companies are shipping new consumer firearms with them?

[img]http://www.foxprojects.com/images/bolt_carriers.jpg[/img]

Ummm... bro, those are both AR15 carriers.

M16 is full length underneath.  It would be the same as the top.

Well in that picture shown the one on the left is not currently a M16 carrier but it might have been one at one time since the feed ramp is covering the firing pin area like in the full auto guns. But the trip surface is definatly milled back.

The one on the left is how I intended to modify my Bushmaster M16 carrier.  I had Kurt Wala from KKF in the industry section do that for me with a Colt M16 carrier and it came out beautiful.  However if its legal to have an M16 carrier then I will just use the M16 carrier as is and avoid the expense of converting it.

This is an m16 carrier from Bush Master.
[img]http://ooctar.com/pix/m16carrier.jpg[/img]

OK. By the pics I had to go by, it wasn't easy to see a difference.
[img]http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/boltCarrier.gif[/img]

One of my carriers has less cut away at the bottom section than the other. I have yet to see one that had the bottom section completely open.

A couple things.....

1) Its hard to put a jeanie back in a bottle. Dont ask questions if you are not prepared to hear the answer....Any letter they may send you might just rope all of us in a corner we dont need or want to be in....I really do hope letter writing to the ATF is [b]not[/b] something a lot of people start doing. I hate to see them make policy on something that is currently acceptable by reasonable standards.

2) They have already written a [url=http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter52.txt]letter[/url] that pretty much covers this subject.




3) I think as arfcom members, we have a legal section, where one can get free advice from more than one good lawyer. This topic has been hashed and rehased in the thread [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440]here[/url]. I think the lawyers are pretty much in agreement on the position for us to take.

Looks like you have a "hybrid" AR-15 carrier not an M16 as told by the LEO's armor but I will still take the questionalable carrier !

Looks pretty simple unfortunately he was going to ask the ATF if it was ok to have M16 parts in a AR15 which is not the case at all and won't get the right answer, which is can you have a "hybrid" AR15 carrier in your AR15 ! The right answer is yes, duh!

Your gun and all guns used that day shot one round with one trigger pull bottom line.

There is no such thing as a hybrid carrier.  I asked how far back the carrier had to be milled.  That makes it an AR15 carrier not an M16 carrier.

That was really dumb to write the ATF a letter when the mere _posession_ of an M16 carrier is considered by the KGB to be an unregistered machine gun.

They're going to believe whatever they want to believe and enforce it because they are an illegitimate organization that thinks they can do pretty much what they want.  They've got judges convinced that they are "God" and our government lets them violate checks and balances by allowing them to be the executive, legislative, AND judicial branch.  The _only_ way you're going to kick their butts is to pay for a high powered attorney who is capable of making them look like the stalin group they are.  If you're willing to do that, more power to you.

Personally, if I had the kind of money it took to hire that kind of attorney, I wouldn't go writing letters telling the ATF you have an unregistered machine gun.  I'd go straight to the courts and make your case for why the ATF should be disbanded or at least smacked back into their place as tax collectors, citing their many indescressions and gestapo tactics.

]


Anything new on this?

He's become an unperson. Removed from all records. Even uttering his name can get you an appointment with big brother.

Actually i think that was "Devl" after he wrote a letter to "The Man" scheduling a no knock on his house.

I do not own the full auto bolt carrier yet.  It is in the hands of a local FFL.  Even if I did I would just show em the modified full auto carrier I did before.  Also if you read it even in the strictest interpretation you must have either:

A single full auto part IN YOUR RIFLE

OR

All the parts to make a complete full auto rifle even if they are not in your rifle.

I am violation of nothing at this point.

This man's done nothing wrong.......how is owning the M16 BCG alone a machine gun? This is not a DIAS it a Bolt carrier that is NOT in a rifle!

It's not illegal. The law is very clear; if you hav enough parts to fire more that one round per operation of the trigger, you are in violation of the law. Last time i checked, there was no way to make an AR-15 fire full auto with an M16 carrier ALONE.


PLain and simple. Re-read the law. It's very clear.

Clear as mud to some it seems....

However, those of us who speak English agree!

We do have a winner, even though some havent figured it out yet....

I agree and thats the only reason I wrote the letter to the ATF so we could get the people who think its illegal to stop once and for all.

If these pic's are correct the Deputy was WRONG...It' been four day's and still haven't heard anything from them...no news is good news....If there was a case to be made I'm sure They would have acted by now


[headbang]      [sniper2]

Big brother is watching you !

Time for another Bump-Fire party at Jackgun's house............

IF ya don't mind me asking, where you go shooting?

I'm currently at Scott AFB, IL. But i come up to wisconsin about once a month. My dad lives in Portage. Rest of my family's from the dodge county area.


We might have to get a south central wisconsin shoot sometime!

Let's do it Nam I was at the last one Tattoo and his family put on....Let's get something going in the Hometown forum..

NAM is corect.  I spent the majority of the day yesterday reading the legal section and the posts regarding this.  The Legal section verifies that it is NOT illegal to have it.  Stev-In-VA is a lawyer and confirms this.  The disinformation here and abroad is astounding.  Even the local shop that sells AR and M16 BCs for the same price sad the same disinformation.  Read the law and make your decisions upont hat, not what someoen thinks.  Are you going to say "Well Sheriff the guys ont he internet said it is legal" or are you going to say "Sheriff the law is very clear ont his, and here is the law regarding this issue, My rifle is not capable of full automatic fire, look one trigger pul, one bang, no DIAS, no Auto-Sear, no hole drilled.  Yes I may have an M16 bc but that is not illegal, even if I have M16 trigger parts and selector witht the BC it is NOT uillegal becasue it is not classified as an unregistered MG without the auto-Sear."  It is a closed case.  Stop all of the "you are going to jail" crap and read the laws as I did and take the time to understand it.  I did not even bother to post on the subject becaseu it is open and closed and I am going to take the word of a lawyer who deals in these issues before I take the word of a gun shop owner or some guy on the NET.  I had the same question but had it answered corectly here. NAM was on the same post with Steve-In-VA and knows.  It is still your decision but the BATF has already responded to similar letters with wording to the effect that it is not illegal but the "ADVISE against it"  Your call but check the legal section of this site. It is very informative.

Once I post my letter it will stop all this BS about the carrier being illegal...

How long does the ATF take to respond to letters like mine?

Depends on how they choose to respond:

In the mail, a few weeks.

In person, just before dawn.

Oh I just got my M16 Bushmaster carrier today!  Oh dear I am SOOOOO scared!  What shall I do?  How will I sleep? [rolleyes]

Everyone knows what the deal is..The only question is do you believe that the ATF has been given the juristdiction to act as the judicial branch.  Technically they haven't, but the courts are listening to them.  Until they are exposed as an illegitimate organization completely contrary to the checks and balances that the contitution instated, they will be able to do pretty much whatever they want.  If they want to say that black rifles are all m16's because m16's are all black, the courts are going to give them a wink and a nod.  Why? because our whole system of government is biased against firearms and things like the constitution go flying out the window because "OH MY GOD HE HAS A GUN!"