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Posted: 6/11/2003 9:40:27 AM EDT
If this is true:
"The law states that you can not have a centerfire rifle with a removeable magazine with one or more of the following features: pistol grip, flash suppressor, flare launcher, collapsable / folding stock, bayonet, bayonet lug, or threaded tip barrel."
Why don't people in the communist republic of kalifornia get a thumbhole stock for their AR? Seems like that would be better than loading stripper clips.

A thousand apologies if this is a dumb question, but I know I've seen thumbhole stocks on ARs.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:00:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 10:14:58 AM EDT by DOA]
Thumbhole stocks have been re-classified BY THE ATF as having a pistol grip.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:01:15 AM EDT
Well I guess that would explain it then. Is that classification only in california, or is that federal?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:05:32 AM EDT
Is California a state in the USA? I always thought of it as the Communist Republic of California.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:22:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:27:07 PM EDT
Maybe if we painted our ARs pink or rainbow colors, instead of black, they would be more acceptable Kalifornia.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:28:40 PM EDT
The part I find most amusing about building on FAB lowers is that, because the FAB does not have a detachable/removeable magazine, it is by definition not an "AW". So you can put on any combination of the "evil" features that the "AWB" was supposed to ban [rolleyes]. All my FABs have flash suppressors and bayonet lugs, and two have tele- stocks.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:13:32 AM EDT
First STEP 1 use the California definitions for discussing the CA state law and not the Federal definitions. They are different. To wit - 12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip. (2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches. You will note that a bayonet lug is not an identifying characteristic in CA. I guess they figured that since there have been no known bayonet charges in CA they wouldn't worry about them. Step 2 Go "ah ha" That's why the FAB-10 is the go to gun in CA if you gotta have an AR. Somebody needs to develop a "standard style" stock with an integrated trigger linkage that can be fit to an AR action with minimal modification
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:18:39 AM EDT
I agree about the stock... I would've thought someone would have been all over that possibility. The grip is the only thing keeping ar15's out of cal!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 11:17:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 11:43:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2003 11:45:50 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Here are some pics... [url]http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/fab10.htm[/url] I would like to steal this discussions to add to the webpage as I really don't know all the details on California's laws. I also find it quite interesting that the CA laws clearly indicate a detachable magazine is one that can be removed without a tool AND a carridge is considered a tool. The federal laws to not provide guidance on this! It seems to me that this level of non-detachable magazine (As in the FAB 10) isn't really needed! There is a handy California Compliant mag latch that is sold for the FN FAL. This little latch holds the mag in and it was held to the FAL via a set screw or two... Sorry, I couldn't find the link quick but the gents at [url]www.falfiles.com[/url] will know where to find it! CA users need a simpler conversion like this for the AR series if they can get CA approval for it!
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 12:01:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 1:46:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2003 1:47:46 PM EDT by mrostov]
Say I'm traveling through California in a car on my way to Oregon or I'm in my boat and I pull into a California harbor for fuel and food. If I have an AR-15 suitably secured and I'm just passing through, what's the practical legalities? Technically it should be OK due to the interstate commerce clause of the Consitution, but who in government or 'law enforcement' pays attention to the Constitution anymore? If they did there would be none of this silliness in the first place.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 3:35:34 PM EDT
If it's suitably secured (defined as unloaded in a locked container and ammo in a separate locked container) then you should have no problem. The CA AG pages http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/travel.htm pretty much tells the story for motor vehicles. Boats should be the same or similar. Federal Law covers the casual traveler transiting between states. I would suggest you not bring any more attention to the boat than necessary since we're apparently talking hypotheticals. Remember that at the current time, CA is having problems with alien smuggling, drug smuggling, and some recently enacted ocean fishing regulations that have got the fishing folk really twisting their knickers. So you have the Coasties, Customs, DEA, INS/BP, DFG all of whom can more or less board you anytime when underway with minimal or no probable cause and when moored without a whole lot of probable cause. Remember boats don't count as cars or homes for most purposes of search and seizure.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 4:24:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 3:12:20 AM EDT
How long has the fab-10 been for sale? I want to build one but I'm waiting for the price to go down. How long do you think before other companies make their own fixed magazine lowers? Do you think california would be so cruel to ban these lowers too? California Resident
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:19:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 12:26:37 PM EDT
I noticed Gogogadgets.net (Shoeless Ventures) are still selling the vertical grips for those interested in keeping a FH on their Post ban weapon.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 4:36:48 PM EDT
Has the price of the fab-10 remained the same for the past 2 years?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:21:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BBgunner: Has the price of the fab-10 remained the same for the past 2 years?
View Quote
No, the original producer was "CMS Machine Services", in N. California and wholesaled at $169, around $199 retail. The patent was bought out by "Shoeless Ventures" out of Carson City, Nev. I don't know what the new wholesale price is, but retail runs from $299 to $375. This is for "stripped" lower receivers.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 5:22:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BBgunner: Has the price of the fab-10 remained the same for the past 2 years?
View Quote
Since the local FFLs were paranoid about transferring the FAB-10, and since Shoeless Ventures doesn't have a retail license (the FFL must purchase the FAB-10, then charge the end user) I had to buy from a somewhat local retail hunting store which gave it a hefty markup. I believe their cost is somewhere around $220, but I had to purchase it for $299.95. (Shoeless Ventures mentioned that the price rose as compared to the price CMS Engine Service [creators] was selling for) It is the singlemost expensive piece on my rifle... but it works!
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