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Posted: 6/9/2003 5:58:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 5:32:38 PM EDT by Slacker]
In Atlanta (farmers market gun show) 1993' I traded for an Original Bushmaster rifle. It had a square upper receiver and used an AK type gas piston. It also had a side folding stock. It looked alot like an Armalite AR-180B.
I shot the crap out of it and it was more accurate than I was. I really liked it.
However, it started doubling...and tripleing and then emptying mags if I held the trigger down.
I took it apart and what do I find?
Well, it had a M16 hammer, an M16 bolt carrier, an M16 selector switch and an M16 trigger.
The only internal that wasn't designed for an M16 was the sear...and that was worn to the point of malfunctioning.
The Bushmaster website says that any M16 parts (in an AR15) constitutes owning a machine gun.
So...why the hell did they build this rifle using all M16 parts if it was illegal?
Was it not illegal when they built it?

FWIW, I traded the rifle off at a gunshow in Atlanta (to a blind guy, No shit!).
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:17:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 6:22:55 PM EDT by shaggy]
Lemme get this straight... You bought an original Bushmaster from some guy at a gun show and assume that because the seller told you it was all factory, new, original, Bushmaster must have F'ed up? I suppose it is possible, but did it ever occur to you that the seller lied to you? (Oh no. Gun show sellers [i]never[/i] lie, do they?) Maybe he put the M16 parts in there and wanted to give it a questionable "test fire" before he sold it to you as new and forgot to take the offending parts out? OTOH, the original Bushmaster rifles were built before Bushmaster got into the AR15/M16 business so maybe they used surplus M16 parts. Its widely known that Colt put M16 carriers in early SP1's. Why don't you call Bushmaster and ask them? Edited to add: BTW - did you tell the blind guy it had M16 parts in it and was doubling? I wouldn't expect him to ever find out, but he may sell it to some other poor schlub who didn't know any better. (I certainly wouldn't want to be next to the unwitting blind guy with an unsafe and full auto capable rifle at the range.)
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:17:48 PM EDT
Seeing as you bought the gun at a "Farmer's Market gun show", there's no telling who may have tampered with/altered the gun before you bought it. Some of them gun show dealers have been known to fudge the truth a bit...
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:21:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 6:29:43 PM EDT by ZRH]
Kinda funny in a stupid way. Provided there was no sear hole it was legal as long as you werent making it "double" on purpose... You could have just replaced the trigger group. It sounds kinda like someones project gun lol. Just so you know the statute of limitations on machine gun possesion is 3 years from the time you dispose of the said gun. BTW why did you share this with us now? [edit speelin]
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:25:48 PM EDT
ZRH - Regardless of whether there was a sear hole, it was illegal. He knew it malfunctioned and doubled, firing more than one shot per pull of the trigger.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:27:54 PM EDT
Point taken.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:00:00 PM EDT
I want to know how you knew it would empty a mag after a while when you sold it in the earlier state of just doubling? Are you and the blind guy pen pals? Bob
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:03:58 PM EDT
The doubling makes is illegal, but you can have as many M16 parts as you want as long as it is not drilled and it is still semi.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:42:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: The doubling makes is illegal, but you can have as many M16 parts as you want as long as it is not drilled and it is still semi.
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And BATF can be [i]very[/i] creative in how they test someting to see if it can be "readily restored" to shoot automatically. I do know the point has been made by SteveinVA in the legal forums, but I too have a law degree and I have a differing opinion from him on this matter. Personally, I think BATF and an AUSA could win a conviction with even one or two M16 parts installed in an AR15 if they wanted to press the matter. There's room for reasonable minds to disagree, but the fact that there can be disagreement on this issue should give you some pause. Would you want to be the guy caught in the middle of the disagreement between the AUSA and your defense attorney?
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 9:00:06 PM EDT
As far as I go is an M16 bolt carrier. All my trigger parts ar AR. SteyrAUG once had a rifle confiscated for M16 parts. He says he knows now it should not have been, but complaining woudn't be worth the trouble.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 11:48:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shaggy:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack: The doubling makes is illegal, but you can have as many M16 parts as you want as long as it is not drilled and it is still semi.
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And BATF can be [i]very[/i] creative in how they test someting to see if it can be "readily restored" to shoot automatically. I do know the point has been made by SteveinVA in the legal forums, but I too have a law degree and I have a differing opinion from him on this matter. Personally, I think BATF and an AUSA could win a conviction with even one or two M16 parts installed in an AR15 if they wanted to press the matter. There's room for reasonable minds to disagree, but the fact that there can be disagreement on this issue should give you some pause. Would you want to be the guy caught in the middle of the disagreement between the AUSA and your defense attorney?
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As another admitted member of the bar skulking about, anybody putting M16 parts in their AR15 is crazy. Forget about whether ATF's published guidance that this is a no-no is correct or not. If they choose to prosecute, and Murphy's law says they will find you, you will spend 50-100,000 dollars mounting a defense even if you win. It's not like TV where the public defender will get you off. And of course, if you lose, you are looking at a big time federal prison sentence. Is it really worth it?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:34:41 AM EDT
What's the story with RRA? Someone said that they come with M16 carriers. At any rate, I compared the parts in my RRA to the Bushmaster catalog, and they ALL look like AR15 instead of M16. The carrier on my RRA has a lot bigger open area behind the firing pin. So, what's the truth? (BTW, my firing group is all Bushmaster AR-15)
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:03:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 4:05:18 AM EDT by Slacker]
Originally Posted By shaggy: Lemme get this straight... You bought an original Bushmaster from some guy at a gun show and assume that because the seller told you it was all factory, new, original, Bushmaster must have F'ed up? I suppose it is possible, but did it ever occur to you that the seller lied to you? (Oh no. Gun show sellers [i]never[/i] lie, do they?) Maybe he put the M16 parts in there and wanted to give it a questionable "test fire" before he sold it to you as new and forgot to take the offending parts out? OTOH, the original Bushmaster rifles were built before Bushmaster got into the AR15/M16 business so maybe they used surplus M16 parts. Its widely known that Colt put M16 carriers in early SP1's. Why don't you call Bushmaster and ask them? Edited to add: BTW - did you tell the blind guy it had M16 parts in it and was doubling? I wouldn't expect him to ever find out, but he may sell it to some other poor schlub who didn't know any better. (I certainly wouldn't want to be next to the unwitting blind guy with an unsafe and full auto capable rifle at the range.)
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Have you ever looked inside a Bushmaster ARMS pistol? Yup, you guessed it...M16 parts. The Original Bushmaster rifles came facroty built with M-16 parts. (I've seen two other rifles like mine w/M16 parts) So, did the law change since they built those rifles? On their webpage they state that any m16 parts is a No-no, yet they built Class II rifles with M16 parts in them. EDITED TO ADD: I fessed up to the blind guy and told him it was doubling. He said "excellent" and took it anyway.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:34:02 AM EDT
Slacker - I didn't mean to bust 'yer balls on this; I hope you didn't take it that way. I don't know when Bushmaster actually started making their own AR15/M16 parts and guns, but I admit that its entirely possible the original Bushmaster rifles had M16 parts in them. Like I said, Colt did put M16 carriers in some SP1's. Of course, that was many years ago and every year BATF promulgates more and more regulations and issues more and more advisory opinions, so they might not have had a stated position when Buhmaster was building their original Bushmaster rifles. But selling a broken rifle to a blind guy? Yeah, I know he knew what he was getting, but that just sounds so bad. (Have you ever thought of becomming a lawyer?)[;)]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:04:34 AM EDT
RRA's do not come with FA carriers. The end of the carrier is full circle but to semi SP1 specs. They also cutout near the firing pin.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:24:22 AM EDT
Unless I took it out of a factory-sealed box, and inspected it myself, I have very real doubts that BUSHMASTER would risk their business putting full-auto parts into a civilian rifle.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:28:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DOA: RRA's do not come with FA carriers. The end of the carrier is full circle but to semi SP1 specs. They also cutout near the firing pin.
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This is incorrect. The RRA carrier is full circle but cut back to not trip the auto sear. The firing pin ramp is NOT cut out and this is what you have heard about... M16 ramp on an AR15 carrier, not an M16 carrier.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:01:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 10:01:54 AM EDT by colinjay]
well according to the ATF it is likely that you: 1. illegaly maunfactured a new machine gun (by grinding dow the sear and having M16 parts). 2. were in posession of an unregistereg machine gun. 3. sold in interstate commerce an unregistered machinegun. 4. comsipred on tthe tow of these counts (#1 and #3) to not pay the $200 tax stamp (total of $400) required by the NFA. As much as the laws are bullshit, I would be more quiet about what you did when where and how as it seriously could lead to potential legal ramifications. You will likely retort, "but I didn't grind the sear down" or, "those parts were already in the gun when I bought it! After your life savings are drained and your car and home are seized, and possibly your family killed in the process, no one will care what you really did. All over $400 dollars of unpaid taxes. Seriously, just delete this post. Whether BM put the parts in there or not, it is your responsiblity to take them out, destroy the gun or do neither and be quiet about it. Telling the blind dude that it doubles could likely land you on a conspiracy rap when he gets busted too.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:42:08 PM EDT
As far as the legality, just think of the 12 idiots they will find to sit as "a jury of your peers". These will be people who would otherwise be at home watching oparah. The Gov't will hold up your Semi only AR15 and ask the jury "does this LOOK like a machine gun?" Do you think the average oxygen deprivator sitting on todays juries even knows or cares what the difference is?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:22:40 PM EDT
this would never ever go to trial. you would never be stupid enough not to plea your way out of the big charges and turn informant on a local dealer and pony up all of your guns, cars, homes and cash to stay out of the slammer.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 2:03:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By DOA: RRA's do not come with FA carriers. The end of the carrier is full circle but to semi SP1 specs. They also cutout near the firing pin.
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This is incorrect. The RRA carrier is full circle but cut back to not trip the auto sear. The firing pin ramp is NOT cut out and this is what you have heard about... M16 ramp on an AR15 carrier, not an M16 carrier.
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My RRA upper came with the firing pin ramp cut out by the factory. As far as the full circle...that is exactly what I meant by SP1 specs. Perhaps my terminology is wrong.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:07:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DOA:
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By DOA: RRA's do not come with FA carriers. The end of the carrier is full circle but to semi SP1 specs. They also cutout near the firing pin.
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This is incorrect. The RRA carrier is full circle but cut back to not trip the auto sear. The firing pin ramp is NOT cut out and this is what you have heard about... M16 ramp on an AR15 carrier, not an M16 carrier.
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My RRA upper came with the firing pin ramp cut out by the factory. As far as the full circle...that is exactly what I meant by SP1 specs. Perhaps my terminology is wrong.
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What I suspect here is that both you guys are right. Apparently, the manufacturers have recently stopped cutting out the firing pin area. This was probably to reduce manufacturing cost, tho in my view, it's a good thing for shooters. It produces a carrier much closer to the original weight than those cutaway pieces, and that can't help but improve reliability and longevity. Understand, that cutaway firing pin thing is not, and never has been, any part of the federal regs. It was purely Colt's idea to start with, and at least most of the aftermarket folks ust followed along. Now from info recently posted here, Colt has stopped doing it, and most of the aftermarket folks are yet again just following Colt's lead. Bought a DPMS complete lower just a couple of monthsago in which the hammer did NOT have the notch that goes with the cutaway carrier, so I assume that DPMSs carriers don't have the cutaway any more either.[:D]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:10:16 PM EDT
colinjay, why in the hell would his family be killed. Now I may be wrong about this. There is no amount of tax stamps someone can buy that would allow them to manufacture a machine gun. If that was all it took you wouldent have M16s that cost 10 grand. Personaly I think you are a peter puffer.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:13:53 PM EDT
FWIW, I traded the rifle off at a gunshow in Atlanta (to a blind guy, No shit!) shortly after it started doubling.
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I love it!
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:28:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZRH: Kinda funny in a stupid way. Just so you know the statute of limitations on machine gun possesion is 3 years from the time you dispose of the said gun. BTW why did you share this with us now? [edit speelin]
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There have been several posts lately that discussed the legalality of M16 parts in a AR15 rifle. It reminded me of my old Original Bushmaster, hence, I posted a question about it.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:47:01 PM EDT
I would add that the purpose I own my AR-15 is for self defense. If I were to use an AR that had M16 parts in it, that is only fodder for the opposing attourney to take advantage off... Just my 2 sense...
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 10:55:02 AM EDT
well polesmoker, i was simply stating that what could happen to his was what happened to Randy Weaver. wife, son and dog murdered over a rifle whose barell was within NFA rules but the overall length was less than an inch too short to be legal. he never paid a $5 dollar tax on it. a classII FFL with SOT could manufacture a machinegun if they pay the tax, so yes you are wrong. and personally I think that you need to check your snotty attitude and save your juvenile agression for the politicos who made these laws and not me.
Originally Posted By para-bush15: colinjay, why in the hell would his family be killed. Now I may be wrong about this. There is no amount of tax stamps someone can buy that would allow them to manufacture a machine gun. If that was all it took you wouldent have M16s that cost 10 grand. Personaly I think you are a peter puffer.
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Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:42:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 2:48:25 PM EDT by para-bush15]
If that is what you meant why did'nt you say that.
You will likely retort, "but I didn't grind the sear down" or, "those parts were already in the gun when I bought it! After your life savings are drained and your car and home are seized, and possibly your family killed in the process, no one will care what you really did. All over $400 dollars of unpaid taxes. Seriously, just delete this post. Whether BM put the parts in there or not, it is your responsiblity to take them out, destroy the gun or do neither and be quiet about it. Telling the blind dude that it doubles could likely land you on a conspiracy rap when he gets busted too.
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Nothing in that quote says anything about Randy Weaver. I doubt Slacker is a class2 ffl, so he can not pay a tax and make a m/g.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 3:22:35 PM EDT
Was the Bushmaster Rifle classified as an ar15? I've personally never seen one in person so I don't know. But, isn't the m16 parts law applying only to AR15's? Of course, if it fired full auto, that wouldn't matter, but if it only had the parts and fired semi, I wouldn't think it would make any difference. Of course, I'm no expert...lol
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:31:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kicker9898: Was the Bushmaster Rifle classified as an ar15?
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Excellent question. Anyone know?
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 6:53:51 PM EDT
I'm surprised no one has brought it up by now, but it didn't used to be illegal to have M-16 parts in an AR-15. I had an early Olympic Arms Preban that had an M-16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. It did not have a hole for the auto-sear and there was a small pin sticking out of the receiver that would prevent the selector from moving to the auto position. It was probably someone filing off the pin and moving it easily to the full-auto position that ATF used to ban all the M16 fire control parts. Without an auto-sear, the hammer will follow the bolt forward. Most? of the time, there will not be sufficient energy in the hammer to ignite a primer after the bolt rotates and unlocks the firing pin, but I'm sure it would work often enough (once) for the ATF to rule it an MG. Anyway, I ended up removing all those parts and putting in AR15 neutered ones. In this case, since this was a very early, pre-AR15 Bushmaster, it was probably built legally with M16 parts at the time. What really surprises me, is that you "shot the crap" out of it and never noticed when you cleaned it.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 7:40:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/12/2003 7:42:20 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By Slacker: In Atlanta (farmers market gun show) 1993' I traded for an Original Bushmaster rifle. It had a square upper receiver and used an AK type gas piston. It also had a side folding stock. It looked alot like an Armalite AR-180B. I shot the crap out of it and it was more accurate than I was. I really liked it. However, it started doubling...and tripleing and then emptying mags if I held the trigger down. I took it apart and what do I find? Well, it had a M16 hammer, an M16 bolt carrier, an M16 selector switch and an M16 trigger. The only internal that wasn't designed for an M16 was the sear...and that was worn to the point of malfunctioning. The Bushmaster website says that any M16 parts (in an AR15) constitutes owning a machine gun. [b]So...why the hell did they build this rifle using all M16 parts if it was illegal?[/b] Was it not illegal when they built it? FWIW, I traded the rifle off at a gunshow in Atlanta (to a blind guy, No shit!).
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If you shot the crap out of your gun, didn't you ever notice the hammer was a M16 hammer when you break it down for cleaning?? the hook on the top of the hammer is hard to miss. you also stated the selector is M16, how come you did not notice the select will going to the third position?? Of course, when you clean your gun, didn't you notice the bolt carrier was a FA version when you take the carrier to clean it?? Why did it take you until the gun is melfunctioning to figure the gun had full auto parts?? I must be missing some point here, please help me understand. thanks.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 9:38:13 PM EDT
I had an old Bushy catalogue with the parts&#'s for the pistol& rifle. I'll have to go find it. The rifle & pistol used AR mags,FCG parts& pistol grip. The rifle looked more like the Galil AR than an AR-18 though. The pistol was adjustable for left or right shooters by pivoting,& was designed for pilots as a survival weapon. If I remember correctly they came with M16 FCG parts before the ban. Damb cool rifle if you can find one.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 2:13:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 2:16:43 AM EDT by Slacker]
Originally Posted By SMGLee:
Originally Posted By Slacker: In Atlanta (farmers market gun show) 1993'
If you shot the crap out of your gun, didn't you ever notice the hammer was a M16 hammer when you break it down for cleaning?? the hook on the top of the hammer is hard to miss. you also stated the selector is M16, how come you did not notice the select will going to the third position?? Of course, when you clean your gun, didn't you notice the bolt carrier was a FA version when you take the carrier to clean it?? Why did it take you until the gun is melfunctioning to figure the gun had full auto parts?? I must be missing some point here, please help me understand. thanks.
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I wasn't "into AR's" back then. Remember, this was 1993. I had a M16 that Uncle Sugar let me shoot and I only traded for the Bushmaster rifle because it "looked cool". The selector did go to all three positions but it didn't suprise me. All the AR type rifles I had ever handled (up to that point) did. Heck, back then I couldn't have told you the difference between a M16 and an AR15 hammer. Long story short....newbie black rifle fan trades into an Old bushmaster rifle at a funshow. Shoots it alot and just enjoys it. It starts doubling/tripling/firing auto and he (I) got rid of it. If I had known what I know now, I would have fixed it....hindsight is always 20/20 eh' Chen?
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 4:43:14 AM EDT
All I want to know - did the blind guy have a seeing eye cat with him?
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