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Posted: 6/7/2003 8:17:59 PM EDT
HI,

I have a AR15 and I have seen post pertaining to self defense and if the shit hits the fan situation. I think most people who have a AR15 have it for just a situation in which I decribed.I see where many people here ask how many magazines do you have," Oh well I have 20 or what ever".Now here is my point not to seem over extreme, what do you carry all your mags in?, a plastic bag?.The point is if you have a AR15 or other weapon with MAGS you have to have other equipment. If you have all these mags you should have a vest to carry them and consider other equipment.I never see anything about this. I see all these people spending money for rifles and scopes, but what do you do if you need your equipment. What Vest do you have?, do you have a packpack for other stuff. I have knee pads, bad knees, and a MAV vest to carry 12 mags I also have googles and other equipment.If something goes wrong I know I will have all the equipment that will help my AR15 and myself do what I want. And I think people should get a drop hoslter for there handgun.I an not saying carry this equipment around town, but you should have this equipment to support your AR or other rifles.No one here really talks about this and this is very important.I would like to know the people here who have vest and other equipment and what do they think would be great to have to help support there AR15 or other rifle.There is extra exspenses that one has to look at , not just to buy a AR or anything else. Thanks,Kev Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 8:38:40 PM EDT
Dude SAW pouches of course. If SHTF I can carry 6x4 (24) 30 round mags. lol. Too bad I dont have that many yet.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 8:42:57 PM EDT
In my case, I can carry three mags each in my two 3 mag GI pouches on my LBE, and carry another fifteen mags in a GI binoculars case that I've adapted to the purpose. So there's 21 mags plus one in the rifle. And there's my ALICE field pack, and a large stock (about thirty) of the older seven pouch GI ammo bandoleers, which I repack as necessary. These 7 pouch bandoleers will hold seven loaded 20 round mags, or if I get the newer four pouch bandoleers, they'll hold four loaded 30 rounder each. I can carry so much ammo that I can hardly move. In theory, I can carry up to 4,860 rounds in magazines in pouches and bandoleers. But that'd be a pretty staggering load...literally!!! I'm not sure I'm strong enough to carry almost five cases of ammo! If I were to, by some great misfortune, get into a situation where I actually needed to haul around that much ammo for battle purposes, I would be greatly surprised if I were to survive long enough to fire it all. A more realistic combat load would be maybe ten full 30's and maybe another 300 rounds in bandoleers. That'd be enough, I think, and would allow me to carry the other supplies and provisions I'd expect to need under field conditions, and still be able to carry it for a day's march. If you can't march the day with your load, you're overloaded, period. If you're serious about preparedness, load up your backpack and vest with the full load you expect to need, weight it all, remove the items that would cause concern from your load (like your rifle, survival knife, and ammo), replace it with equal amounts of weights, and then go for a nice long hike. See if your load is realistic for your physical condition. When in doubt, follow the time-honored and proven procedures that the Army uses. For one, have your battle essentials in a small pack and your not-so-essentials in a larger pack that you can dump for the sake of speed and survivability if you have to. CJ
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:01:56 PM EDT
HI, I see you gentlemen that respond and I thank you for you input. I found it amazing that this is not more f a issue here. You can have the nice AR the nice scope , what good does it do if you can not carry equipment??.I know it sounds strange that a regular person would have a vest and other equipment , one would say , HA this guy is over the edge.I think it is only logical to have a vest a drop holster and other equipment to have to support your $1,500 AR15.If you are serious about using it when needed you better have the equipment that goes with it. I do not see this here , I see I HAVE MY AR 15 AND FANCY SCOPE, but with no way of carrying or using the equipment you put so much money in your AR15, ACOG and other stuff, WHAT ABOUT CARRYING YOUR EQUIPMENT?.There is more to just having a combat rifle get the rest of the equipment, and YES it cost a lot, but is NEEDED JUST AS THE AR15. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:07:05 PM EDT
Im only into plain jane ARs (20in A2 or A3, no optics). My family put together probably has enough milsurp webbing to outfit an entire company. Theres a little term here for all gear and not much gun but I wont say it... [:)]
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:24:06 PM EDT
HI, The point I am trying to make here is this. A AR15 will not help you without other gear, pure and simple.If you buy a AR15 or other rifle that takes MAGS you better get something to carry them in and be able to get to them in a hurry.I do not see this here on AR15 BOARD.More people here should be saying YA, you got a lot of MAGS but what the hell will you carry them in. I am going to spend over $200.00 for a MAV vest so I have it when I need it. I am not a millartary person, buy need this , I have a AR15 with many MAGS and want to be able to use them if I have to.I think many here are missing the fact that a AR15 with not help you a whole lot without equipment to carry all you need for it. Not being informed by menbers of this board of how "DAM" important these pieces equipment are for there ARs to be effective is a big mistake .There is so much more than just the rifle. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:33:07 PM EDT
HI, I am sory about repeating my post,computer is so dam slow. Anyway I am kind of glad, also as I would really like to hear from people here who know what I am saying is true, and the equipment they would suggest for others here.If you have 15 mags you better have something you can carry them in or what the hell is the point. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:37:50 PM EDT
Kev50 Only hit the submit button once [:)] I have a range bag that holds 32 mags and a drum. It sits loaded and ready to go, and the ammo gets recycled every trip to the range.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:44:34 PM EDT
Jeez dude! Chill out. You're beating this dead horse to death...yeah I get it. You need a freakin bag to carry yer crap in. Okay so we all have backpacks and mag pouches. I guess we need to start a "magazine transporting" forum for you before you shit your pants.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 9:59:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2003 10:05:00 PM EDT by uglygun]
LOL, I think we have a run away gun on our hands here. Kev50 has got a full auto submit button and it just got stuck... That said, you can go back and delete posts.....
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:07:15 PM EDT
HI, Again I am sorry for hitting the submitting more than I should have.I guess why I am making a big deal about this is most people who get into AR15 or other rifles and I include myself.Do not understand or are not informated of the cost, cost of the other equipment , vest, googles, knee pads, holsters for handgun, packbacks. And how many train at the range with this equipment on.Not trying to trolin or cause an arguement.I am just trying to help, by pointing out that survivalist nuts or not the AR is not much good without the other supporting equipment.ZRH and SPUDLEY 112 I thank you for your post, but understand I am just trying to point out there is more to just having a AR15 load with A MAG next to you night, I will say this forum has been a great place to learn about the AR and I sure have and appreciate everyones help.Thank you , Kev
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:11:47 PM EDT
I really don't know how many mags I have. However, I do know that I keep three 20-round mags loaded. (Except for some old Sterlings, I never shoot with 30-round mags.)
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:17:20 PM EDT
Well, if I was going to load up all my AR15 mags it would be over 1k rounds total loaded. As it stands I keep 2 or 3 30 rounders loaded. I have 1k rounds on stripper clips though right next to the can of mags. As for what could I carry? I have three 3 mag pouches plus a drop leg 2 mag pouch. In my range bag/hiking/camping pack I've got what could be deemed as "support gear" but it's not much more than an easy to grab pack for when I goto the range so I don't forget nothin. It's got what I need to keep an AR15 running when out in the fields busting squirrels in the event of a popped primer getting crushed in my barrel extension or if I need to break the rifle for detail cleaning. But it really isn't a B.O.B to me, thought it's only about 1/2 full it could easily be filled with the things needed to make it one.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:19:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:21:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/7/2003 10:22:18 PM EDT by cloak-n-carbine]
Originally Posted By kev50: HI, Again I am sorry for hitting the submitting more than I should have.I guess why I am making a big deal about this is most people who get into AR15 or other rifles and I include myself.Do not understand or are not informated of the cost, cost of the other equipment , vest, googles, knee pads, holsters for handgun, packbacks. And how many train at the range with this equipment on.Not trying to trolin or cause an arguement.I am just trying to help, by pointing out that survivalist nuts or not the AR is not much good without the other supporting equipment.ZRH and SPUDLEY 112 I thank you for your post, but understand I am just trying to point out there is more to just having a AR15 load with A MAG next to you night, I will say this forum has been a great place to learn about the AR and I sure have and appreciate everyones help.Thank you , Kev
View Quote
All your "googles" are belong to us.... Dude, seriously. First of all, in a major SHTF situation, where mutants are roaming and looting, etc., your best bet is to hunker down, WHERE ALL YOUR GEAR IS LOCATED, and defend your position. Your home is where you are most familiar, and also where your comfort/survival resources are located. If necessity dictates you must become mobile, then why would you want to take more than a standard combat load of approx 200 to 250 rounds? You won't get very far (assuming you're on foot) if you are so waited down by extraneous equipment that you can't hump steep inclines, or trudge through serious thicket. Just my .02.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 10:36:30 PM EDT
As one who has been caught in a never ending traffic jam in a real SHTF situation, the old "run and hide out in the cabin in the hills" thing just is not going to work without plenty of warning. Best to secure your home. I like the Galati MP30 mag pouch over the GI type. This pouch holds 6 mags, in six separate pockets. So, when you pull one, you don't have the other two rattling around. Buttstock cleaning kits, spare parts kit in the Lonestar Stowaway II grips have most all else needed. Pinned to the pouches are stripper clip guides. The ammo cans on top of the piles have the ammo all on stripper clips, as well as a few more guides in each can. I have several of the GI cleaning kits in the little green pouches handy, too. Vests work well, too.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 11:36:14 PM EDT
This site is geared toward the weapon, not the tactics, gear and theories of SHTF. You post as if you are to break new ground on the subject. Most people who want to be able to use their weapon as a tool, have the equipment to do so. Its not our place to judge those that don't, each person has his or her own unique needs. You come across rather condescending when you post the same thing in every reply. Relax a little, your point is valid without screaming it 85 times.
Link Posted: 6/7/2003 11:42:20 PM EDT
Heh, very nice everyone, very Matrix. If I survive a TSHTF scenario I'd love to get movies of all of you hitting the hills, it'll look like a SWAT convention or something. Me, well, I probably be dead not too long into that scenario (the hazzards of a combat MOS), but if I do, I have a couple of choices- my issue gear. Nothing fancy, just a basic combat load-out that uncle sam issued me. Fatigues, boots, a ruck, a shelter half, 180 rounds in two belt pouches plus 60rnds for my USP, and what ever else I can wedge into a 38lb ruck after my "basics of living" gear. My next choice, which I'd almost go with first if I could figure some way to keep all the harnessing togather when I took it off is my German WWII reenacting gear. Genuine Whermacht spec field gear is VERY comfortable, VERY sturdy and surprisingly durable. I'd probably still stick with my K-pot and US pattern fatigues though. I'm not a Nazi really, I just play one sometimes. My final choice would be my British pattern '37 gear. Why? Because next to blackrifles I have the most Enfields.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:02:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 5:05:24 AM EDT by rimfire50]
If the SHTF in todays world, you won't be able to see more than 20 feet because of the nuclear dust, and your 'googles' won't be enough to keep you alive. Get real, get a life, talk to a shrink, you're floundering in the deep end. When the SHTF, you (and the rest of us) are going to be the 'S' that gets scattered around, there won't be anything left to defend or protect.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 5:48:59 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:56:10 AM EDT
I bought an AR for it's versatility and proven track record in combat conflicts.I did have a MOLLE setup that cost almost as much as my AR.After taking a tactical carbine coure, I realized that the likelyhood of me actually using that equipment was very slim.That's money I could have spent on ammo to pracice what I learned in class.I've since sold all that stuff and only use a Kydex AR magazine belt pouch and a CQB solutions 3 mag chest pouch.I also have a mag pouch that attaches to the buttstock.I was trained and use my AR for home/self defense andwith this setup, there is always 1 magazine on the rifle at all times.One magazine can be concealed on my belt and the chest pouch holds 3 AR mags and 2 pistol mags(used at the range mainly to keep extra loaded mags within easy reach.I seriously doubt the shit will ever hit the fan so bad that civilians will have to run arround in military garb.In a civil unrest situation(more likely) I would prefer not to advertise that I'm carrying my AR.When i go to the range, I store my magazines in the pouches of the rifle bag and carry a few more in my range bag.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 7:17:35 AM EDT
Personally, I bought my AR because I am a huge fan of firearms in general and realized the AR is one of the finest, most versatile firearms I have ever come across. My wife and I love shooting it so much I put together a lightweight version for her. Yes, we do have a means for carrying our mags and we do own nice backpacks that can double as an emergency carryall for food, water and medical supplies, but I do not concern myself with this whole SHTF thing. Do what the guys here are saying. Concern yourself with protecting your home first. Besides, if there is some kind of social meltdown and I need something to protect my family, I'll just take all of that neat gear from you. Just kidding, or am I? Gear is nice, but it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing. Go take a long walk through the woods (without your AR and gear) and realize that the world is propably not going to end tomorrow.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 7:27:39 AM EDT
After years of owning only bolt guns I decided it might be time to buy an AR. I doubt seriously that we'll have to face terrs parachuting from the sky, the more likely scenario is civil unrest resulting from a terr incident. A semi-auto AR provides much better deterence than does a pistol in some situations what with higher capacity, harder hitting etc. So being new to the AR scene I pondered how many mags I should buy and came up with 3 - 5. That many mags simply because I like to cycle the ammo to prevent spring problems. I'm not planning on conducting any neighborhood operations, just keeping an eye on my own backyard.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 7:45:44 AM EDT
Better ten too many, than one too few!
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 9:21:37 AM EDT
I see what you're getting at. What percentage of people who have a firearm "just in case" an SHTF situation occurs, actually also has other support equipment that will give him a survival edge in the even that "just in case" becomes reality? I'd venture to say that not ten percent of gun owners in general are actually prepared in that sense. I'd say that those who have an interest in military style rifles are more likely to be so prepared. I figure that anyone who has, for example, acquired more than two AR-15's or similar rifles (or more than two "assault style" rifles of any kind) is going to be still more likely to have taken such preparedness measures. Really, acquiring a serviceable kit of support gear, such as your LBE and your field pack setup, doesn't have to be a major expenditure. I doubt seriously that I have even as much as 100 dollars total investment in my complete ALICE pack and LBE system, not counting the contents of them. I can't see why anyone who'd wish to acquire such a setup needs to pay much more than that, provided he's patient and waits for the right deal. My setup isn't intended for playing Rambo. It's intended to help me to get the hell out of Dodge, provide for my basic needs away from civilization, and keep me armed. My rifle is set up for accuracy at medium range, and NOT for CQB. I would rather be nowhere near a CQB situation, but if I got into it, quite frankly I'd rather trust my good shooting skills with my .45 anyway. Any good pistol is a better handling option than any rifle in tight quarters, and I trust the .45 to put someone down as well as any other caliber. Discretion is the better part of valor. I am very valorous by that measure, as I will discreetly disappear if I have enough warning of an impending hot situation to make use of it. That "last man standing" thing is for the birds! I would use my skills to avoid getting "up close and personal" if at all possible. If I had to get into a shooting conflict, by preference I'd rather assume the role of defensive sniper than any other role. To stay well hidden and keep your opponents well away from you is a doctrine that works for me. In the future, as opportunities allow, look for survival oriented individuals to start equipping themselves with goods and materials that are low observable in IR and thermal imaging equipment as well as in visible light. And of course, as IR, low level light, and thermal imaging equipment becomes more available, we will start acquiring more of it ourselves. CJ
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 11:22:32 AM EDT
I would also think that most people here have something put together in case of emergency. A small pack with essentials would suffice.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 2:32:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rimfire50: If the SHTF in todays world, you won't be able to see more than 20 feet because of the nuclear dust, and your 'googles' won't be enough to keep you alive. Get real, get a life, talk to a shrink, you're floundering in the deep end. When the SHTF, you (and the rest of us) are going to be the 'S' that gets scattered around, there won't be anything left to defend or protect.
View Quote
This is the kind of post that may intimidate some people from discussing this issue. There are those people who like to be prepared as possible. Then there are those people who think they are being moderate in their thinking and will down those people who don't think like they do. Every person has to asses their own situation and what they may need for many different possibilities. You do what you feel comfortable with. You are the only one who will have to worry about your decisions in the end, no matter what happens in the future.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 3:32:48 PM EDT
Good topic! Yes most of us are mag whores but mainly due to limited availability rather than tactical. Like my military training, I don't carry that many mags to the range nor plan to in SHTF. Any plan, range or SHTF, has to include bulk ammo in one form or the other. At the range, I use an assault case with mag pouches with an ammo box with the rounds loaded on stripper clips. I'm typically even around other AR shooters the most prolific shooter on the line. While my barrel cools I load my mags using the strippers. I've kind of found that happy medium of rate of fire, reload, and barrel being too hot. Likewise in SHTF, I would use bandoliers with strippers which I keep in a separate large ammo can ready to grab and growl. Like the military I use pistol belts both for current camping and field shooting needs as well as potential SHTF. I buy USGI mag pouches for about $3-$5 and SAW for $10. I actuall have enough of these things to carry every mag I own but wouldn't. In SHTF how many I would carry would depend on the senario and what else I am packing. I don't see more than six though for most senarios. I'm not Rambo and what field experience I do have tells me that after you go through a couple hundred rounds you have either won or are a corpse no matter hom many rounds you pack. As for longterm SHTF, I keep most of my ammo in ammo cans and a large mortor case which can be slipped into my truck if my back holds out. LOL
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 4:25:20 PM EDT
A search for Bug Out Bag may reveal some interesting results. Anyway, I like the vest. I bought one of those East German vests and liked it so much I went ahead and sprung for an Eagle Industries. I also have the Eagle duty belt with assorted pouches. It can be clipped into the vest or worn by itself.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 6:48:36 PM EDT
Assuming that AR ownership means you should have a survivalist mentality, and that in order to really accessorize your rifle you must have the full US infantry CQB kit handy seems extreme. By all means, buy that stuff if you envision engaging in small unit tactics next disaster... But I suspect it really won't be necessary. I think that the hurricaine in Florida... Andrew was it?, where you had actual homeowners spray painting things like "Have gun, will shoot", and "Will shoot to kill looters", is the best example yet of how crucial our right to own these rifles is. I think early warning and a defensible position are going to make more difference in these cases than an LBE full of mags.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 9:15:21 PM EDT
HI, FIRST, I would like to thank who ever take off all my repeated posts, thank you very much for your help.The idea I had with this is a lot of the additional gear needed is very important when one thinks about what a AR15 is for, so I think some time should be taken to consider the gear also. I really like what CMJOHNSON,VA-GUNNUT,TOMJEFFERSON,MRHAPPY, had to say.They understood what I am getting at. I also feel a little strange to have vests knee pads googles and onther equipment as to say , Yes I have gone over the edge. And I am trying to be a weekend RAMBO, but the facts are very clear, if you have a AR15 for the purpose the rifle is designed for it only makes common sense to have the gear to implement ones AR15 or other rifle to use.And to do this the gear would just make a person more effective.I think it would be strange for a person who has 2 AR15 and 30 mags, but no other eqipment to carry this in a quick mannor,this would be not to understand or see the whole picture. I am not a end of the world person, but if one was to just look at the LA riots this should be enough for what I am trying to say, something like that could happen any time or any where, one needs to get ALL his gear togather very fast.. A AR15 with no other gear is like peanut butter without jelly. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 9:16:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 9:19:11 PM EDT by jason_h]
I guess it comes down to what you mean by SHTF. If it is some sort of natural disaster where looting becomes a concern, staying put only makes sense. It would be more important to stock up on food and water than ammo. So in this case, having web gear is kind of pointless. If SHTF means fighting a military opponent, your screwed. Most likely you would get off maybe one shot and then your position would be compromised by artillery, armored vehicle weapon fire, or a nice 1,000 lb bomb. Remember that modern militaries have thermal and night vision, its not like you can really hide once you make your presence known. If you plan on fighting guerilla type warfare, you would be much better served with a bolt gun in a fairly large caliber and a good scope. That said, each to their own, I do have a bit of web gear myself, but I just use it to carry ammo around while plinkin' on the farm or on public land. Edited to add that if you did need to move during a time of social unrest, it would be much better to have gear that could be concealed. If out go out the front door in full battle dress, you are just going to call a lot of unwanted attention to yourself.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 10:33:37 PM EDT
Stay freakin put seems like the best advice. PLANNING. Your house should have plenty of food water and other essentials, you can't walk your family far enough to make any real difference in any real emergency. If you live in an area where you are going to be prey to predatory neighbors, MOVE NOW. If the neighbors know you have the guns you may become the rallying point, either for protection or to take you. My intentions are to stay put in a civil disturbance. I can't imagine any kind of a scenario where my home locale becomes a battlefield. And if it does, I can win. I have emergency power, food supplies, potable water, the neighbor has a pool. You can't drink pool water too long but it sure works with a bucket to dump in the toilet to flush it. I do Emergency radio support to hospitals in my county. They have already agreed to subsist the comms volunteers AND their families. I can get to either of the two nearest hospitals from home with little or no problems. If I bugout the firepower goes in the truck. (Actually the car will do) I head for the "creek" which here in So.CAl. has nice Flood Control districts access roads along and I can drive right up to the parking losts of the hospitaals. If the access roads are for some reason impassable, then I drive the creek bad or the adjoining golf cources where there isn't the access or the concrete channel. I go to the hospitals in a natural disaster - earthquake. So. CAl has earthquakes. No warning BANG they are here. Tornadoes you usually get some warning, hurricanes several days. Earthquakes NONE. So you better be ready. We have amateur radio, cell phones are not going to be available, the wire and wireless phone systems can't handle the load that will be generated. Plus, until I get a CCW I am not going to have loaded arms in the car if I am working across t. Well not that I will admit too. I will have a basic kit of water and food. Taking long guns and keeping them in your vehicle is just asking for things to get stolen. (Maybe a real basic pump shotgun) The car and truck have water and MRE's, blankets, radios, batteries, etc.Worst case scenario is being away from home or office. (Most savvy employers have at least a minimum earthquake support plan.) Any civil disturbance and I go well around or don't go to work. Planning Planning Planning
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 11:07:21 PM EDT
HI, I appreciate all the people who have posted here and thank them for there input.The bottom line with any weapon is you better have the additional gear that will enable you to utilize your rifle more efectively rather than going thought some plastic bag looking for your MAGS.Have your equipment that can ready and easily reachable.This means have a vest that carry"s mags have googles have knee pads and a backpack. Make sure you know you equipment and can use it any time you need it, it will save your life and your families as well.It kills me people have an AR15, but think nothing is going to happen? Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 12:19:46 AM EDT
HI, This web site is so educational in that it will point out equipment that is very reliable and useful for a AR15 type of weapon.The point I tried so hard to make is to help other realizes that just having a AR15 or other weapon system is not the end. I and you need vest and other equipment that will enable the AR or other rifle to be used to its fullist potential.How can anyone here have this weapon, but not have the ability to carry the needed epuipment . This makes no DAM sense?????, Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 12:57:55 AM EDT
I think that in a (sthf) situation it would probably be best to stay where you are, which would be home where you and your family would most likely be. For most people that live in the city they would use their cars to get out of Dodge in that situation and would have plenty of room to bring supplies. How many people would actually get their AR-15, vest, mags and other equiptment and take off on foot through what ever was going on to get to the hills? For carrying my gear I use a basic gym bag which is light, sturdy, has plenty of room and is cheap. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that people talk about and prepare in many ways for a shtf scenario but don't have night vision scopes or night vision capability. Most social breakdowns happen at night. Riots, blackouts and general hell raising happens much more often when it is dark. Even if you don't use a night vision scope to shoot someone it would help you see what was going on. Night vision is one of the excessories that is super expensive for a good one though.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 3:13:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kev50: HI, This web site is so educational in that it will point out equipment that is very reliable and useful for a AR15 type of weapon.The point I tried so hard to make is to help other realizes that just having a AR15 or other weapon system is not the end. I and you need vest and other equipment that will enable the AR or other rifle to be used to its fullist potential.How can anyone here have this weapon, but not have the ability to carry the needed epuipment . This makes no DAM sense?????, Thanks,Kev
View Quote
You can't understand that every AR owner is NOT preparing for "SHTF", "TEOTWAWKI", etc.? Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that there are AR owners that just like to shoot their AR's? YES .... there are other AR owners that DO think differently than you, and KNOW what they're doing. Chris
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 4:22:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 5:32:13 AM EDT by mrostov]
A couple of thoughts on the topic. Like one poster previous said, probably not 10% of gun owners are actually prepared for a major upheaval in what we consider to be civilization. Present company mostly excepted, it's shocking how many gun owners really don't have much ammo at all. Many have maybe a box or two of shells in their bedroom closet for whatever gun they have. Tactical gear - Some very good tactical gear doesn't cost much that will get you way ahead in the game of getting geared up. I've seen US Army surplus LBV's in good shape selling for $20 to $25. Knee pads (a must in a possible firefight situation) can be had from Walmart in the section where skateboards are sold. Ammo Storage - A couple of ideas I've implemented. 1) Store your ammo in the smaller 30 caliber ammo cans. You can store about 720 rounds of M193 in one and they are way lighter and easier to carry than the more common and larger .50 cal ammo can most everyone else seems to prefer. They are a lot easier to carry when loaded than the .50's, especially for people of smaller stature, like the wife and kids. This logistical and transport consideration could come in very handy, especially if you need to move a lot of your vital supplies, such as in case you need to load your vehicle fast. 2) When using bandoliers, instead of using the cardboards with 20 rounds per pocket, since most people use the 30 round mags, ditch the cardboards and store 3 loaded strippers per bandolier pocket. Wrap the small 30 round bundles with some cellophane, but not air tight to avoid condensation. Leave them open on the sides unless you have dessicant packs and oxy-absorber packs to wrap in with the bundles. ------------------------
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 4:30:42 AM EDT
I bought my AR15s (and most of my guns) for fun, plinking, and historical interest (I have a C&R FFL) and in case I ever decide to shoot competitively. The idea of "bugging out" is not in the equation where I live for the following reasons: - I'm in the 'burbs of Boston, where the roads all back up at 4PM every day, nobody would be moving in a SHTF scenario . . . they'd all be bumper to bumper until they died or ran out of gas! [I used to work in the nuclear power industry and chuckled when they talked about "emergency evacuation plans" . . . we can't get people home in rush hours, never mind a real emergency!] - There are no sizeable uninhabited areas to "bug out" to here! - Not being in a big city, typical city unrest is unlikely. [I drove thru the parts of Boston that were "burning" during the racial unrest of the 1960's as I was attending college . . . would never do that now, but realize that burning down blocks "plays better" than a single family home on 1-2 acres!] BTW, having been in TX, FL and WA I do acknowledge that there are parts of these states where one could "escape to the mountains or woods/plains" even if roads are backed up. Our geography really doesn't allow for that unless one owns a helicopter and has a landing pad at their home. I agree with others that in case of a disaster or localized unrest, it is better to defend your home than run away to hide in the woods (and perhaps have nothing to come back to). Having been a Reserve Police Officer for 17 years and currently a Constable for 4 years in our town, I'm not about to be "duking it out" with law enforcement. In a real emergency, I'm more likely to be fighting along side of them (still extremely unlikely) than against them. In a real military situation, as one person wrote, after the first shot you take, their "big guns" are going to make a crater where your home (or you) are located! As I learned in my radiation control training (Electric Boat in CT), in case of a nuclear attack I would want to be in the path of a direct hit. Going fast and certain is a lot better than coming out of a hole in the ground to a totally uninhabitable environment (food, water, air, soil all contaminated with radioactive material) and a slow death. When I work in the law enforcement area, I am armed to defend myself (Constables don't usually work in uniform and thus we CCW and try to look unobtrusive to get the job done with the least amount of aggravation), not to go to war.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 4:47:16 AM EDT
Alot of very good responses here.
Originally Posted By Aimless: I can't really envision the situation where I will go through 12 30 round mags and not have time to reach into my backpack (an embarrassingly blue number, hey I ASKED for Blackhawk but Santa decided on LL Bean).
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Aimless, I think that the LL Bean backback could very well prove to be of greater value in a SHTF situation, [i]if you had to be on the move[/i]; I agree that the best plan (in most cases) is to stay put in your home. Of course, us country bumpkins may have a slight advantage there. Anyway, back to the LL Bean thing - if you are on the move and subsequently being evaluated as potential prey by both LE and the mutants, an LL Bean bag in the back seat or on your back is much more unasuming than the tactical Blackhawk stuff. If you gotta move, look scared (if you ain't already), dress normal, and move quick.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:14:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 5:44:39 AM EDT by mrostov]
The nuclear threat is every bit as real now as it was in the 1980's, probably more so since America's weapon stockpile has dramatically decreased while the Russians and the Chinese still continue to build warheads and missiles. The Russians actually never stopped. They kept making more of the modern stuff. I strongly disagree on the nuclear assessment by some that we're all just doomed to die from radiation. Odds are far higher you'll die from starvation, disease, lack of clean water, exposure to the elements after becoming a refugee, or violence at the hands of your fellow man than the odds of your being killed by blast or radiation. In a general nuclear exchange, unless you live right next to a serious target or happen to be looking directly at bomb when it goes off you will most likely survive the initial strike with little or no injury. Furthermore, all of the fallout myths aside in a general attack, even if NO ONE sought shelter from fallout, probably a minimum 50% to 60% of the civilian population would survive the 2 weeks it would take for 99% of the fallout to dissipate it's radioactive emission capacity and survive the effects of any radiation contamination they may have received. The fallout will NOT be everywhere, but localized in certain random patterns defined by the local wind and atmospheric conditions downwind from ground strikes against hardened military targets (do NOT use silly Hollywood movies as a guide). Fallout in the Northern Hemisphere that goes long distances tends to travel in an East-Southeasterly direction. Fallout in one hemisphere almost never crosses the Equator. Fallout in the Northern Hemisphere will stay in the Northern Hemisphere. The bulk of the radiation from the fallout dust will be gone in 2 weeks since most of it was non-isotopic, artificially induced emitters, stuff like common dirt and atomized Air Force base personnel. Most of the targets in a general strike against the American infrastructure would be airbursts anyway, which produce less than 1% of the radioactive fallout of the less common ground bursts which produce a smaller damage area and are intended primarily only for hardened military targets. So, that leaves us with a surviving population of probably 50% to 80% (probably closer to the higher figure) out of a nation of 280 million people. Now the real danger starts. Your average city has a 3 day food supply and your beloved government has taken NO civil defense preparations for the average citizen (but you can bet your ass THEY have well stocked and guarded shelters - that YOU paid for). Furthermore, in a general nuclear strike the transportation and fuel supply systems will be amongst the first targets heavily hit. So, no food or fuel comes in, or moves much of anywhere, at least not nearly enough. What food and fuel there is at the distribution centers and warehouses will probably be seized and rationed inefficiently by the well fed bureaucrats and politicians in their command shelters. The military and government personnel will get first dibs on everything. Even if the infrastructure didn't collapse, and only 50% of the people were left after the strikes and fallout, that's 140 million starving people, that's 20 million more than the entire US population in WWII. All of this is a real danger that never actually went away in the 1990's, it's still with us and probably a bigger possibility than ever.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 9:06:53 AM EDT
Anyway, back to the LL Bean thing - if you are on the move and subsequently being evaluated as potential prey by both LE and the mutants, an LL Bean bag in the back seat or on your back is much more unasuming than the tactical Blackhawk stuff.
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Absolutely right. If you are on the move in urban/suburban America or even rural America it will pay to look like one of your sheeple brothers. Saw pouches attached your loaded down LBE will not be the profile that you want to project. And in the SHTF situation, in my mind I am only breaking contact. I can't fathom any situation in the relatively civilized US that would require more than 710 rds to break contact. As well, if it took more than 710 rds to defend my house, then I probably made a poor decision deciding to defend. I do have a Tactical Tailor vest that holds a double basic load but I only use it when I strap on my leg holster and decide to practice moving and shooting, transitions etc. The truth is that if I wasn't in the Army I probably wouldn't have anything more than a shotgun to defend the house. The likelihood of real SHTF situation is so infinitessimal as to be absurd. That doesn't mean that we can't use those situations to justify all these guns to the wife or that it isn't fun doing alot of shooting just in case we really do win the lottery!:)
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 11:02:10 AM EDT
i own blackhawk gear and some tactical tailor stuff. most of it i got from playing airsoft without which i would own a few weapons, a whole lot of mags and no real way to carry them. if there was a nuclear strike i would prefer to go in the initial blast ive heard stories of radiation sickness that are ugly.the situation i can more likely see is a sudden catastrophe and breakdown of law and order at which point i want to stay put till the situation is righted.i have enough mre's and water to sustain the family for a 2 week period possibly longer and the weapons and ammo to defend us if necessary. if we have to move because of the crisis we would blend in as much as possible.but carrying a rifle or a shotgun among the herd would almost certainly make us stand out anyway while on the move and just looking prepared to deal with the situation and frightened out of your wits would really make us stand out. mostly i would prefer to stay in the area that i know rather than trying to run somewhere that everyone else was running to. wherever they go to there are likely to already be people there who arent moving out so quickly without a fight and i have seen refugee camps in areas of the world where people have run and those dont look too good either. considering that the usa is the one that feeds these refugee camps(according to the usda food bags)if something happens here i would stay put cause noone will feed us. my 2 cents
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 12:06:50 PM EDT
Kev50, Can't help asking if english is a second language for you, or if you are young? Aside from that, many people often confuse SHTF and TEOTWAWKI. SHTF happens quite a bit. Rodney King riots (not just LA). Hurricane evacuation (complete with looting). Ice storm wipes out power for a week. 911. There were some Medical students on an island called Grenada who probably thought the S had HTF for a while. Anyone who was home when a burglar broke in could say the same. I think I can make it through TSHTF again. I am personally at 3 and counting. I'm not sure I want to make it through TEOTWAWKI.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 1:40:45 PM EDT
Hi, GLOCKSHOOTER, I am not young,41, and english is my only language, but you are right I am awful using it, kind of a rock head.There are a lot of good ideas here, I just wanted to get some input from the people on this forum. MRCR0603, I understand people just shooting for fun, I hope more people will do that.I just think the people on this forum are serious shooters and I would be surprised if they did not have additional equipment along with there AR15. I am not trying to start any argment,I just had a question so I posted it. Thanks,Kev
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 1:49:56 PM EDT
I think we need to take another look at the AR15 rifle. Being extremely versatile, durable, and accurate, as well as convertible to .22 rimfire, it is well suited to almost every purpose a rifle will be called upon for, outside of big game hunting. It would be a perfectly valid and sensible choice to lock it up in a cabinet, own nothing but 10 round factory mags, and shoot it only on the 15th of the month. Saying that people who don't accessorize for infantry patrols aren't using the rifle right would be similar to saying that people who don't mount a tactical 14 X 50 scope on a free floated flat top camo'd 24" are messed up because their sniping ability would just suck. Neither position is defensible, since ownership is a personal matter. The beauty of the AR15 is that it will do SO many things extremely well. Talking about it like it needs to be 'the ultimate weapon' kind of smacks of the same thing that the media likes to do, if you ask me. It's a perfectly valid do it all rifle in the closet... and with a prouder heritage than any Remington 700 or Ruger 10/22.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 2:14:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 2:27:02 PM EDT by PVFD304]
Originally Posted By kev50:what do you carry all your mags in What Vest do you have?, Thanks,Kev Thanks,Kev
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[img]http://www.blackhawkindustries.com/uploads/product_images/30VT09BK.jpg[/img] I use this or a travel back-pack I bought at Target for my gear. I read somewhere of a system using three "layers" of gear. You would shed off the layers that you don't need. I'll see if I can find the link.... here it is [url]http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x[/url] First Line Tactical Gear - The bare necessities to live another day Second Line Tactical Gear - The main line harness that executes the fight Third Line Tactical Gear - Heavy sustainment systems that allow long term living
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:26:42 PM EDT
Yes, I have complete LBE, spare parts and accessories for all my weapons. FAL, AR, shotgun, ect.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:57:35 PM EDT
I am a Firefighter/EMT, and if TSHTF around here I will be called by the local sheriff to back up the boys, as either above, guns&stuff, or both. Like Len, I *won't* be running away, but trying to restore order. (BTW, I think I know you from C&R-FFL) $30 on EBay will get you a web belt, suspenders, and a few 3x30 round ammo cases. Get a holster a double mag pouch and you're done. You will spend more on the holster than the rest. The vests are nice; I plan to get one some day soon; mostly for nighttime forays and alerts; at home or to toss in the trunk if paged to an ugly call. It doesn't take $300 Molle gear and full SWAT ensemble to be prepared.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 7:22:31 PM EDT by KODoc]
Originally Posted By mrostov: 1) Store your ammo in the smaller 30 caliber ammo cans. You can store about 720 rounds of M193 in one and they are way lighter and easier to carry than the more common and larger .50 cal ammo can 2) When using bandoliers, instead of using the cardboards with 20 rounds per pocket, since most people use the 30 round mags, ditch the cardboards and store 3 loaded strippers per bandolier pocket.
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A 50 cal can will accommodate six 4 pocket bandoliers, rendering 720 rounds of easily portable ammunition. The cardboards accommodate 30 rounds each. Simply alternate the bullet direction of the 3 stripper clips. That being said, A realistic SHTF scenario is more likely to involve roving bands of homies following an unpopular verdict than the Russkies dropping out of the skies. I'd prefer to remain in my home minding my own business until the need to drop a couple became apparent. At that point my family heads into the utility room and daddy day care is in session. Regarding nuclear "attack", in that unlikely event, it would be probably be sabotage directed against poorly secured nuclear facilities. At that point you hope you're far enough away and out of the typical wind currects (NE in this neck of the woods) to avoid the dirt.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:32:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2003 7:33:22 PM EDT by TitaniumT]
Originally Posted By kev50: Yes I have gone over the edge.
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ya think? [rofl]
I think it would be strange for a person who has 2 AR15 and 30 mags, but no other eqipment to carry this in a quick mannor
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Perhaps it's time to buy a motorized vehicle to carry those AR15s. They must sell surplus tanks somewhere!! [rofl2] TT
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