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Posted: 6/7/2003 7:30:30 PM EDT
Thinking about putting togather a "Vietnam" era AR-15 just for shits and giggles and was wondering who, if anyone carries SP1 uppers for a reasonable price anymore? I dont suppose bolt carriers are avaliable w/out the forward assist notches are they?
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 5:49:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 6:34:07 AM EDT by shamayim]
When you say"SP1" are you talking about an upper w/out the forward assist only but a standard size hinge pin hole, or an actual SP1 upper with both the smooth side AND the oversized front hinge hole? For the first option, check the DPMS web site. They show an upper w/o the forward assist, with the standard push pin hole. In fact, even if you have a big hole lower, that might still be your best option, using an adapter hinge piece. Or, you could hit the local gun shows. The ones around here always have vendors w/ SP1 uppers, either stripped or barrelled, that some guy who just had to convert his AR to A2 configuration traded in. [:D] (Added 1/2 hour later) Ok, my curiosity got piqued, so I went back to both Brownells, and the DPMS sites, to check out what's what. Brownells shows the early type upper,DPMS part #A1, but the DPMS site does NOT show the part, so it may be discontinued. The DPMS site does show the unnotched, plated, bolt/carrier assy, part #BCBF-01 for $164.00.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 8:23:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 8:24:33 AM EDT by Derek45]
Remember the movie "We were Soldiers" ? If you look at pics from the [b]real battle[/b], the CAV had forward assists, this was way back in 1965. The SP-1 uppers are "large hole", they won't fit a newer post-ban lower without using an adapter. What you probably need is an M16A1 upper receiver, triangle handguards, and a Colt 1:12 skinny 20" barrel. I built one a year or two ago and sold it here on equipment exchange. I trimmed the bayonet lug and put a CAV-COMP on it. It looked REALLY COOL, but I needed the money for another gun buy. SARCO had Chrome lined Mil-spec new 1:12 barresl for about $135. I got one and it was a COLT barrel [:)]
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 2:28:03 PM EDT
Derek is absolutely correct. If you want a copy of the US Army Viet Nam era M16. the A1 with forward assist is the way to go. Unfortunately, real A1 type uppers, with the assist, but w/o the case deflection hump are getting even harder to find than smooth sides[;D]. There were actually two different M16A1 versions used in Nam. Early ones had the non trapdoor buttstock and a three prong flash suppressor. The very earliest did not have the protection fence around the mag releas, but did have the long bar on the lower, that houses the takedown pin detent and spring. The very earliest had the chrome plated, but notched, bolt and carrier assy. Over the course of the three or four years after it's introduction, the trapdoor butt stock was added, the flash suppressor changed over to rhe birdcage style, and the mag protection fence was added. Recently built up a clone of the early style myself, including a chromed carrier. It does have the mag protection fence, tho. Next project is building up a second type model, w/ mag fence, parked bolt/carrier, bird cage type flash suppressor, and trap door stock. Original trapdoor jobs in good shape are getting hard to find tho[;D]. When that's done, I'll have civie versions of every model of the M16 ever used by the Army. Then I'll probebly have to build up an Air Force type M16 (no forward assist) job.[:D]
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 8:43:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2003 8:47:53 PM EDT by mrostov]
One of my pre-ban AR's has a Colt M16A1 barrel, M16A1 furniture with the trangular handguards, and a prong style flash suppressor. The upper is the 'A1' upper that Bushmaster sells. It's actually a Canadian style C7 upper, which is an M16A2 upper with the casing deflector but with A1 sights. Unless you notice the casing deflector it looks just like an M16A1. For M16A1 parts, try Sarco. Last I heard they had surplus M16A1 uppers.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 6:04:01 PM EDT
I think I'll make due with a smooth side upper and a regular lower. Anyone make A1 handguards or am I going to have to go begging to my Guard armory guy to fish me some out of the wayback bin? (he gives me old mags and other goodies all the time anyhow...) The other issue is, I realy dont want to sink a lot of dough into this project- so I dont intend on putting everything on a pre-ban lower. Does anyone make "fake" three-prong flash-supressors?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:11:46 AM EDT
"What you probably need is an M16A1 upper receiver, triangle handguards, and a Colt 1:12 skinny 20" barrel." This is what I DO need. I want to build a rifle like the one I was issued in the Army in the early 1980s. It was an M16A1. Forward assist, triangular handguards, birdcage flash suppressor. If anyone knows where to get one, give me a shout. I realize I could just build one, and I may end up doing that, but I know they become available at times. I saw some for sale on here last February. The guy basically jerked me around and made excuses and I still don't have one.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 11:56:22 AM EDT
I bought a Colt SP1 large hole, slab sided upper off of Ebay a couple months ago for $150. It is in excellent condition. It did not have the 3 prong flash hider but the early birdcage. Triangle handguards but no forward assist or case deflector. 1/7 twist in a thin barrel. It matches up quite well on my preban lower with a bushing and is a very light and fun rifle to shoot. I am going to put a 3 prong FH on it just to make it look more retro.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:01:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 12:02:10 PM EDT by monkeyman]
I bought a Colt SP1 large hole, slab sided upper off of Ebay a couple months ago for $150. It is in excellent condition. It did not have the 3 prong flash hider but the early birdcage. Triangle handguards but no forward assist or case deflector. 1/7 twist in a thin barrel. It matches up quite well on my preban lower with a bushing and is a very light and fun rifle to shoot. I am going to put a 3 prong FH on it just to make it look more retro. In fact mine looks just like this one currently on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2178751533&category=135
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:22:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 1:25:11 PM EDT by thrushagent]
Originally Posted By shamayim: Derek is absolutely correct. If you want a copy of the US Army Viet Nam era M16. the A1 with forward assist is the way to go. Unfortunately, real A1 type uppers, with the assist, but w/o the case deflection hump are getting even harder to find than smooth sides[;D]. There were actually two different M16A1 versions used in Nam. Early ones had the non trapdoor buttstock and a three prong flash suppressor. The very earliest did not have the protection fence around the mag releas, but did have the long bar on the lower, that houses the takedown pin detent and spring. The very earliest had the chrome plated, but notched, bolt and carrier assy. Over the course of the three or four years after it's introduction, the trapdoor butt stock was added, the flash suppressor changed over to rhe birdcage style, and the mag protection fence was added.
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These innovations happened in a particular order, as study of war photography will show. Through 1967 they stayed much as introduced in 1964; then the boss around the magazine catch button appeared, followed closely by the birdcage FS. According to the May 1971 [i]The American Rifleman[/i], p.68, the trapdoor buttstock was introduced in 1969 but I have yet to see a photo of an M16 being used in VN by US personnel at any time that had any but the original butt. Indeed, the Army seems never to have gotten around to retrofitting them in any numbers, though the Marines did ( after they were out of VN ). (Full disclosure requires that I make clear that all I know is what I've learned by looking and reading, having been born a bit late to actually take part in the proceedings[:D])
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:31:57 PM EDT
If anyone is interested, I have a Colt M16A1 upper receiver for sale on the EE. It is the upper receiver only, no barrel or bolt/bolt carrier. Here is the link. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=168569[/url]
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:38:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By monkeyman: I bought a Colt SP1 large hole, slab sided upper off of Ebay a couple months ago for $150. It is in excellent condition. It did not have the 3 prong flash hider but the early birdcage. Triangle handguards but no forward assist or case deflector. 1/7 twist in a thin barrel. It matches up quite well on my preban lower with a bushing and is a very light and fun rifle to shoot. I am going to put a 3 prong FH on it just to make it look more retro. In fact mine looks just like this one currently on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2178751533&category=135
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That barrel probably isn't 1:7 but 1:12 instead. For M16A1 furniture try these guys: http://www.northridgeinc.com/ar15_m16.htm
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:43:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thrushagent: These innovations happened in a particular order, as study of war photography will show. Through 1967 they stayed much as introduced in 1964; then the boss around the magazine catch button appeared, followed closely by the birdcage FS. According to the May 1971 [i]The American Rifleman[/i], p.68, the trapdoor buttstock was introduced in 1969 but I have yet to see a photo of an M16 being used in VN by US personnel at any time that had any but the original butt. Indeed, the Army seems never to have gotten around to retrofitting them in any numbers, though the Marines did ( after they were out of VN ). (Full disclosure requires that I make clear that all I know is what I've learned by looking and reading, having been born a bit late to actually take part in the proceedings[:D])
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Thanks for the chronological info. I inadvertently listed the upgrades in reverse order of introduction. I do recall that my first AR15, purchased in 1974 or 75, still had the early butt stock, but did have the birdcage suppressor. Of course Colt has always used parts that had been replaced by different types on the M16s, on the AR15s, so I'm not surprised that the AR I got still had the esrly type stock. Personally, I like the first issue butt. It's "stickier" than the trapdoor type and doesn't slide around on your shoulder as much.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:04:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 6:17:50 PM EDT by Slash]
Originally Posted By RebelGray: Does anyone make "fake" three-prong flash-supressors?
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I have an original 3-prong hider. IM me if you're interested. Or check out Kurts Kustom Firearms.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:12:21 PM EDT
Just curious, does anyone know why they switched from the 3-prong to the birdcage flash suppressor?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:26:15 PM EDT
the old 3 prongs hide a lot of flash at night compaired to most flash/hiders including vortex.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 6:20:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Just curious, does anyone know why they switched from the 3-prong to the birdcage flash suppressor?
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The open-ended prongs tended to snag on the heavy jungle undergrowth. They collected vegetation at the muzzle. Not a good thing.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:40:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2003 7:45:07 PM EDT by Derek45]
Originally Posted By marvl: Just curious, does anyone know why they switched from the 3-prong to the birdcage flash suppressor?
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IIRC, According to THE BLACK RIFLE, they switched to the birdcage (A1) because the 3 prong tended to draw more water into the bore, and it got snagged on vines, etc.. Water in the bore can blow up the barrel. My old SP-1 has the 3 prong, it sure looks cool.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:54:51 PM EDT
does any of us live in the jungle or swamp, well in a sence we all do but?????
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 8:30:21 PM EDT
SP1 upper is a M16A1 upper. Because an SP1 is an M16A1 without a select fire lower.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:06:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Functional: SP1 upper is a M16A1 upper. Because an SP1 is an M16A1 without a select fire lower.
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Sorry, but the SP1 upper is an M16 (not A1) upper, without the forward assist. Some of us have "upgraded" our SP1s to A1 configuation by either using milsurp A1 uppers, or as in my case, finding late Colt commercial big hole uppers, that were used on later models ---after the original owner had "upgraded" his piece with an A3 type upper[:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 4:36:18 AM EDT
Genuine Colt M-16A1 uppers can be found from time to time. I bought a complete (-Bolt carrier group) unissued Colt M16A1 upper reciever group from CDNN in Dec. 01. The cost was just under $250.00. It is mated to an RRA lower. It must have been from a recent foreign contract because it is finished in black rather than grey. It is a very close match to the finish on the RRA lower.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 5:08:45 AM EDT
444, CMMG is selling complete preban A-1 uppers including bolt, new DPMS A-1 Upper receiver, new triangle handguards, and new 30 year old 20 inch 1/12 pencil barrels for around $450.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:47:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 11:02:03 AM EDT by thrushagent]
What I would do to replicate the look of a 1967 vintage XM16E1/M16A1 is this: shop around for an AR-15 A2 Sporter II with the forward assist but not the brass wart and with the late type ejection port cover. Oh, and the early type FA; some have it, some have the round kind. I would then replace the stock and grip with the early style and remove everything ahead of the upper receiver: barrel, handguards, flash suppressor, slipring - well, maybe keep the gas tube[:D]. Then for an M16A1 barrel, handguards, slipring, and three-prong FS. Put it all together with an aftermarket pivot pin and you've got a nigh-perfect reproduction. A few words about parts availability: I'm always astonished at the sheer number of old-but-new flash suppressors still available: could they be aftermarket repros? Old style handguards still seem to be around and Sarco advertises M16A1 barrels both stripped and with everything but the receiver itself. I'm not so sure about old grips and early stocks but I haven't looked for any lately. One part I just about never see anymore is the old style slipring; apparently they've become extinct. Drat. Edited to add a link I just came across while googling: [url]www.mooremilitaria.com/prod03.htm[/url]
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