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Posted: 6/5/2003 9:39:29 AM EDT
Has anyone seen the new prices on the Trijicon ACOG's at Riflescopes? They went through the roof. They added $200-300 to every ACOG model.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:57:19 AM EDT
Well I didn't want to believe you, but I took a look for myself and many of the prices on ACOGs did shoot up. Maybe someone can explain what's going on.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 10:03:03 AM EDT
They are just telling you that they don't want to sell anymore scopes is all.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 10:10:28 AM EDT
Supply and demand? Seems that the world situation might be sucking up their production capacity with military orders. You can either put customers on long back orders or raise your prices until the demand matches your capacity to deliver product. If you buy one now consider it your contribution to the war on terrorism. Sort of like a liberty bond.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 11:35:23 AM EDT
Yep supply & demand. They have the product everyone wants - pony up or buy elsewhere.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 12:41:23 PM EDT
Wow, I just bought my M15 and was waiting to catch my breath to get an ACOG. Shouldn't have done that. Where would be the best place to get one that may still have some at the old price?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:17:28 PM EDT
I was going to sell my ACOG to help pay for a MG but the prices of ACOGs are rising faster than those of MGs, so the ACOG was a better investment. [rolleyes] Ok, so I'm exaggerating. But the fact remains that companies like Trijicon and Surefire (to name the two worst offenders that stick out in my mind) are royally sticking it to their customers, because they CAN. Yes, them make excellent products and continue to offer improvements, and I commend them on that, but that doesn't excuse their horrible pricing policies. And don't defend them with the old 'supply and demand' bit, because they have been doing this for years before the war. And inflation ain't matching the price hike either. Do you think they are going to drop prices when all the conflicts in the world dry up? Never going to happen, but if it did, they wouldn't cut you a price break. I started looking at TA11s several years ago. Back then they were around $750. I bought one about a year or two later, and it cost me around $900, this was before any war in Afghanistan. Now, about a year and a half later, they are over $1100. Yet Leupolds still seem to be the same price, even the high end MK4 and LRT lines. Hell, I bought an Aimpoint CompM when they first came out for around $300, and you can go out and buy a new M2 for the same price today! Same thing with Surefire, their lights keep getting better, but try and find a nice 6v light with mount for under $200 anymore. Sure the m900 is the coolest thing out, but $450-550 for a 9v light and foregrip? They know their lights are the best right now, so they will continue to charge you more and more, so they can pay for ads (sometimes entire magazines) picturing 'operators' with 5 lights and 3 lasers on their rifles, so they can sell more lights. Hell, they even have Airsofts now to sell to, so why should they lower prices? Again, I love Trijicon and Surefire stuff, and will continue to buy it. But I know that they are screwing me, because their gear is the hot shit right now, and THEY KNOW that no matter how much they charge, someone will still buy it. So until another company comes out and makes a better product, bend over prepare to take a big one...
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:26:51 PM EDT
Supply & demand is more than just 'there is a war on'. The demand is high enough and the customers willing enough to pay the higher costs. Trijicon is making the right business decision for their owners/sharholders because people really don't have other equivalent options so they have to buy their product. I'll be the .Gov/Homeland Security purchases are what's driving up the costs. Lots more LEOs and Govt agencies are also seeing the light and they have deep pockets (hey its YOUR money they are spending). Yeah the $900 for a compact ACOG is a bit steep - but nobody makes a serious competitor. Good news is perhaps now that Trijicon's prices are going so high - there is now room for a competitor to make a durable, lighweight, fixed power scope with a BAC type feature. The market so hates a vacume.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:31:33 PM EDT
Buy it used.....ACOGS for $600 when someone needs the cash.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:00:54 PM EDT
Forest, I agree with you 100%, they are making the right 'business' decision, at least in the short run. Doesn't mean I like it. However, if they aren't careful, their price increases will eventually outstep what their customers are willing to pay. Or they worse yet, they'll start pissing folks off. Worse case scenario, someone comes up with a better project, then they are screwed.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:22:08 PM EDT
Yep, they might get screwed - but it would be good for us!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:31:56 PM EDT
Hello, I read your response to my Trijicon post. What ACOG are you looking for? I have been asking and checking around for awhile now and found a couple of places with good prices. Of course stock is limited. I did find tha TA-31 for $819 and $849 for example. I cannot for my life find any of the 3x compact versions though. If you tell me which model# your looking for I'll email you with the place I found the best prices on them. Mike
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:32:32 PM EDT
The main problem is that ACOG's are the best; and no one else makes anything that is as good. According to capitalist theory, draftsmen at major optical factories are at their drawing boards right now peparing to fill the gap between what ACOG's cost and what we, the consumers, are willing to pay. It cannot be too difficult to make a rugged fixed power scope with a tritium reticle in it. But when will they be on the market? That's the question.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:03:32 PM EDT
A reality of manufacturing is that as volume goes up then cost goes down not the opposite. The increased pricing can be one of two things only. It's either pure profit taking and if the market will bare it so be it or they are in fincial trouble and are desperate. No condemnation just fact.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:08:59 PM EDT
Here's a little down home story...I used to be a BIG fan of West Virginia brand thick sliced bacon. At $3.99 a pack, I bought it every trip to the grocery store. At $4.99, I bought it every other trip. At $6.99, I quit buying it altogether. Now it's over $8.00 a pack, and I don't even remember what it tastes like hehehe. Now, you may wonder what the hell that all has to do with ACOGs...well, at some point, EVERYONE is gonna stop buying them...I just wonder what that "price point" is. Looks like they're gettin' closer, though.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:03:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fenian: Here's a little down home story...I used to be a BIG fan of West Virginia brand thick sliced bacon. At $3.99 a pack, I bought it every trip to the grocery store. At $4.99, I bought it every other trip. At $6.99, I quit buying it altogether. Now it's over $8.00 a pack, and I don't even remember what it tastes like hehehe. Now, you may wonder what the hell that all has to do with ACOGs...well, at some point, EVERYONE is gonna stop buying them...I just wonder what that "price point" is. Looks like they're gettin' closer, though.
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And the real moral of your story? The .gov must be paying $12 a pack so your pork packer doesnt need [i]you[/i] anymore.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:31:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: A reality of manufacturing is that as volume goes up then cost goes down not the opposite.
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That's not always true. We are a defense related manufacturer, and our business is up over 60% this year. We are scrambling with pages of Gov't rated orders that HAVE to be built first. Consequently, we are paying a LOT of premium expedites to get materials in, we are paying more to folks that have the materials in stock, rather than waiting for a lower cost vendor, we're paying overtime, added $500,000 in capital improvements, and pay a lot of expedited shipping to make up for late deliveries. Cost don't necessarily go down with increased volume. Mr. Sony himself when he was starting out quoted a big NYC department store an INCREASED price for a higher volume of transistor radios. They were flabbergasted, and proclaimed your statement. Mr Sony countered with the fact that he would have to build a new factory, buy new machinery and hire and train new people to do the volume they required. The Department store acknowledged this, and paid the higher price. Now one big benefit is after you hit your break even point, your G&A and overhead become additional profit.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:22:28 PM EDT
I JUST yesterday took delivery of a TA31A from riflescopes and must have JUST got in before the price increase... Whew! Dodged that bullet by a hair! LF
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:50:50 PM EDT
If you looked at TRIJICONs www site you would see the MSRP of ACOGs has always been VERY high. Whats probably happening is Trijicon is making sure distributors have a minimum advertised price they are allowed to sell at. Surefire did the same thing a couple years ago, Aimpoint has done it for years too.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:52:08 PM EDT
Oh yeah, and for the record, I am glad I got the Comp ACOG I always wanted last week instead of this week!!! [;)]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:16:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FrankSquid: And the real moral of your story? The .gov must be paying $12 a pack so your pork packer doesnt need [i]you[/i] anymore.
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hehehe...you're probably right!!
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:58:54 PM EDT
I've had my compact acog on order for 2 weeks...before price increase. I called them and they said they would still honour that price when it came in. I hope it comes in or they don't pull the "still on backorder" routine. Anybody had any experience with this?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 10:29:12 PM EDT
I was going to buy one today from them. Instead I removed them from my favorites list. I'll try elsewhere but if it is the same everywhere I'll take a pass. I can still shoot pretty damn good with irons. Probably end up removing a few places from my favorites list. Getting too long anyway.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 9:59:26 AM EDT
I asked over on their industry forum and their response was short and to the point. Said that Trijicon had raised their prices and that SWFA's prices would remain at the increased price. I ordered one elsewhere at the lower price on friday but they are not currently in stock and if they increase the price on me I will probably tell them not interested.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 11:18:30 AM EDT
Wow! Here's my ACOG story: After [b]2 years[/b] of 'researching' and putting off buying a compact TA50 until I was absolutely sure it really is as good as they say--and that I'd really like it, I finally got my order in May 30th at SWFA for $589. I'm not embarassed to say it's a lot of money for a scope for me. What timing!!! Now that they're $799.(!) I'll say...I probably would never be an ACOG owner. It's just too painful a thing to do; to the point where one is forced to settle with something else less expensive (like M2 Aimpoint?) but still get pleasure from using. Heck I think I'll see about getting that 401K put into Trijicon stock--if there is such a thing, I hope! Trijicon looks to be better to [i]make money with[/i] than to [i]buy from[/i]! I feel for the guys that couldn't get they're order in on time before this last wallet rape. Let me also state that Trijicon, SWFA, et al have the right to charge whatever they feel their product is worth. It's called free enterprise, which is what helps to make this country so great and enables me, the ordinary citizen, to buy the best products if I'm willing to pay the price asked. It's all about free will.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 12:05:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: A reality of manufacturing is that as volume goes up then cost goes down not the opposite.
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That's not always true. We are a defense related manufacturer, and our business is up over 60% this year. We are scrambling with pages of Gov't rated orders that HAVE to be built first. Consequently, we are paying a LOT of premium expedites to get materials in, we are paying more to folks that have the materials in stock, rather than waiting for a lower cost vendor, we're paying overtime, added $500,000 in capital improvements, and pay a lot of expedited shipping to make up for late deliveries. Cost don't necessarily go down with increased volume. Mr. Sony himself when he was starting out quoted a big NYC department store an INCREASED price for a higher volume of transistor radios. They were flabbergasted, and proclaimed your statement. Mr Sony countered with the fact that he would have to build a new factory, buy new machinery and hire and train new people to do the volume they required. The Department store acknowledged this, and paid the higher price. Now one big benefit is after you hit your break even point, your G&A and overhead become additional profit.
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Let me rephrase to add in a properly handled company. Your Sony story is a good example since he was amoutizing his capital against the order it was intended to serve. To amourtize your capital expenditures or premium frieght across your entire business by dollars is a formula for lost market share. Variences in manufacturing should be passed on to the customer base with the variences otherwise, you penalize your business, other customers, for the variences you incurr. Likewise setup or indirect labor should be allocated by job/work order not by dollars across the business. Otherwise, you will keep bad customers and lose good ones being defined as profitable. If I took a guess I would say if their increased volume is their problem then they are using a standard cost accounting system and rolled the cost to cover the new fixed overhead. Most volume companies today talk net profit which is if you cover your material, labor, and variences anything else goes to paying the bills thus increasing profit. If indeed volume is the case, they are asking their aftermarket to pay for their bad decisions regarding their government orders. If they know what they are doing, which is doubtful since most companies don't, they are pruning their customer base and the aftermarket, us, are non-core to their strategic direction. Tj (the learned the hardway) businessman.
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 9:18:45 AM EDT
Guys go buy a IOR M2 and save yourself $600-$800. Yeah, it may be bigger but a Trijicon is not $600-$800 better. I looked at some of the mini models and did not see an increase in optics quality or features that justified it. SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 5:18:02 PM EDT
"Has anyone seen the new prices on the Trijicon ACOG's at Riflescopes? They went through the roof. They added $200-300 to every ACOG model." and if you also noticed car prices go up also, so does washers, food, and almost every consumer product there is. so your point being????
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:08:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sfcret: "Has anyone seen the new prices on the Trijicon ACOG's at Riflescopes? They went through the roof. They added $200-300 to every ACOG model." and if you also noticed car prices go up also, so does washers, food, and almost every consumer product there is. so your point being????
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Since when do any of those things go up 25% in one shot without substantial improvements. So what's YOUR point???? SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:27:57 PM EDT
The weak US Dollar against foreign currencies has something to do with thie price increases, too.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:17:42 AM EDT
Jacking up the price by about 33% is kind of drastic and I think goes way beyond inflation or weaker dollar arguments...
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:50:35 AM EDT
Trijicon hasnt raised the prices of their scopes on their website. If they have, it's not by much at all. The only people to have raised the prices so much are the vendors selling them. It used to be a scope that Trijicon retailed for $1200 could be found online for like $800 or so. It seems that now all the vendors are selling the scopes for prices much closer to what Trijicon has always been selling them for.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:04:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: It used to be a scope that Trijicon retailed for $1200 could be found online for like $800 or so. It seems that now all the vendors are selling the scopes for prices much closer to what Trijicon has always been selling them for.
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Before purchasing my TA01NSN I called Trijicon directly because I was concerned that the NSN on their website, selling for close to $1200, could not possibly be the same one that I found, new, for $735. The Trijicon rep assured me that it was the same model, and strongly suggested that I purchase the scope from a retailer rather than from Trijicon directly. They want you to go to the retailers, as Trijicon would rather sell in bulk to these guys. That having been said, I don't know why the retailers would make such a jump in price, other than the good reasons already mentioned here.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:39:50 AM EDT
Manufacturers always sell to individual customers for more than they sell to retailers for. IOW the MSRP is ALWAYS inflated. Retailers can then set their price somewhat in order to compete in the marketplace and get a substantial discount by buying in volume. Further manufacturers for the most part do not want to sell retail. It's just not what they do best. It can definitely be expected that prices will increase on most items we buy. I think the issue is the size and rapidity of the increase. SWFA/riflescopes is pretty much saying "bend over or keep your business." Fine by me. I purchased elsewhere, actually for less than SWFA had orig listed for. I will not buy from SWFA, nor will I refer any more business their way. That is my choice. Maybe their was some kind of management or organizational change that accounts for this as that is often the case. Increase the bottom line for this quarter and to hell with the long term. Alot of management types are looking to move on periodically anyhow so only the short term profits really matter to them. That has been my experience, anyhow. Like I said, there are other seller's out there and they are all competing for OUR money. Look around. There are better prices. Screw SWFA. They will sure be glad to screw you.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 7:49:24 AM EDT
SWFA advertises in Shotgun News and Gun List in virtually every edition. 2-3 years back, I was in the market for a Reflex II, saw a current ad with a seeming good price and called them to place my order. The price was, IIRC, about $30 higher than the printed ad. They STILL tend to advertise lower prices in their printed ads than what you see on their web site. I tend to look elsewhere for my optics needs.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:43:14 AM EDT
Maybe I was quick to blame Trijicon, since I don't know if they actually raise their MSRP this time. Too bad SWFA isn't competing for customers as strongly any more. I remember they used to post all the time in the optics forum here. Their prices were hard to beat, and if you found a better price, they sometimes matched it. Seems like they aren't around to answer questions anymore. I bought a lot of scopes from them in the past, but my last 3 scopes have been from different vendors, go figure. At some point in time they got rid of the 'super secret sale' page on their website for AR15.com members, that seems to be about the time I stopped shopping there.
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