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Posted: 6/2/2003 2:44:45 PM EDT
Was at the range the other day shooting my pistols and (legal) SKS when I see this guy in the lane next to me firing an MP5 with all the trimmings (front pistol grip, flash hider, scope, 40 round mag etc..). He even was having his 7 year-old DAUGHTER firing the thing (she could barely lift the thing, he had to help her). So as he walks by me I say "Nice weapon" he says "Thanks". I say "Is that an MP5?" He says "Yes" and walks away. It is then that my light bulb goes on and I realize that the chances of this MP5 being legally registered are slim to none. He was too 'discreet' about it (i.e. not wanting to chat about his weapon, and always returning it to its case between firing loads). Now I don't know what to think about the guy, was he smart to be so discreet, or just plain stupid to bring it to a public range in the PRK? By the way this is also a range where we have substantial 'law enforcement' patronage. Personally I think taking those chances are stupid, but part of me admires the guy for having some brass ba11s in this Golden Police State of ours...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:00:16 PM EDT
What range?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:03:11 PM EDT
I thought you could have NFA weapons in kaliforniastan if you got a permit.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:10:11 PM EDT
Its absolutely none of your damn buisness what this guy has. I suggest you shut your mouth and not get the man in trouble.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:11:35 PM EDT
There are semi-auto MP5's that could be bought at one time...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:13:08 PM EDT
Oh, and Sam B, take a hike you flaming bastard idiot.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:13:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 3:19:05 PM EDT by uglygun]
Originally Posted By Dave85: By the way this is also a range where we have substantial 'law enforcement' patronage.
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What? He couldn't been off duty? As for MP5s, sure it wasn't something along the lines of an HK94 or was the guy firing off long strings of full auto/burst fire? Steyr AUG rifles and HK 91s are also legal in Ca. but they have been banned from transfer since 1989, they are in Ca. but they are just damned rare. I know somebody who is fortunate enough to have a BUNCH of the rifles banned on the old 1989 Rooberti/Roos legislation, he registered the entire lot of them and continues to shoot them just fine. His situation is no different than my own where I own and shoot 3 AR15s and an AR10 at the range on a regular basis, they are papered and I can prove it. He doesn't neccesarily have to be breaking the law, just like there are thousands of legally owned AR15 and AK type rifles in Ca. that got grandfathered.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:17:19 PM EDT
Possibly, but I'm just stirring the pot in case he wasnt LE, and just a regular citizen.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:24:05 PM EDT
it's not your problem. CA's laws are illegal. if you want to feel better than go rat him out. otherwise i wouldn't say anything. it's their problem if they want to risk it but i could care less what someone else does as long as it's not full auto.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:45:45 PM EDT
Your misinterpreting what I was saying. I don't want to rat him out or anything like that. I respect his decision to own what firearm he wants and his 'civil disobedience' in doing so against a stupid law. I just question his common sense if he brings that weapon to a public range (if he is, in fact, NOT law enforcement). Maybe he should be in the desert somewhere popping off instead of risking arrest (in front of his daughter, as well) at a public range.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:48:11 PM EDT
Did I also mention that Las Vegas is only a few short hours away? He could go there too...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:49:10 PM EDT
The guy could have been LEO, Govt, or a Class 3 dealer. There are also many civilian owners of NFA stuff in CA. Federally it is legal to have MG's in CA but illegal per state law. If I were anyone of those people, I would have been careful myself, not wanting undo attention. There are WAY too many "doo-gooders" who would jump at the chance to bust a fellow gunowner. Iv'e seen it plenty of times. Best thing to do is do what you did. Just say "nice weapon" and walk away. BTW: Was this the Angeles range???
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 3:55:22 PM EDT
Not the Angeles range. I'd rather not be too specific in case the guy is on the 'discreet' side of things. It was in indoor range. Oh well, more power to the guy whatever he was.. I still was envious.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:00:48 PM EDT
Best way is inform them of what they are doing in very gentle way, and ask if what they are doing is legal.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:22:31 PM EDT
I'ld let the Range worry about it. It's their business and license thats in jeopardy in addition to the shooter. I might mention it to the range boss if he's the kind of guy that likes to run a tight legal ship. And of course we have the out of state dork blithering his blather about legality of CA laws. They are not "illegal" nor are they unconstitutional, and they are our problem. I'll type slowly so he can understand. The 2nd Amendment applies to the Federal Government and Congress, it does not apply to the State Government. This is one of the areas where the State can make it's own laws. California has no 2nd amendment equivalent in it's State Constitution, ergo the State can make just about any gun law it likes. If you don't understand this, ask it on the Legal board. afch, cripes
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:26:57 PM EDT
not too flame MAVERICK..but why inform anyone of anything..unless you are ATF or LEO..its noones concern ya dont know the deal with this guy..if it was me..i would ignore sumone asking me questions..its noone business. obviously the guy didnt wanna talk..we have a problem at our range of the range officers jus pickin up "cool" lookin firearms to make sure the bolt is back , yadda yadda yadda..we ask them what are they doin and they say makin sure its on safe and bolt is back , and we tell them that if they looked hard enough without touchin the firearm they could see that..they usually mumble off..too many nibshits in this world..
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:36:33 PM EDT
Well, the "guess-timate" of the legally registered AW's in Kali ranges between 15% - 20%, with another 10% that have been confiscated for other reasons. That leaves several thousand AW's "unaccounted" for.[;)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:40:12 PM EDT
I'm saying to inform HIM...not anyone else. (I admit I could have used better clarification) The point of my statement was to tell him what he is doing and ASK HIM if he thinks what he is doing is legal, and advise him if you know really well about it. Otherwise, just close your mouth and let him deal it himself. As you said, its none of our business. It is his.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:55:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sam_B: Its absolutely none of your damn buisness what this guy has. I suggest you shut your mouth and not get the man in trouble.
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No shit man mind your own damn buisness.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:59:01 PM EDT
sorry..once again..dont inform "HIM" of anything...even if ya dont rat him out..its still not your concern to tell HIM of HIS business..ONLY unless he is being unsafe, then ya got a safety issue not a AWB issue..and then that is range officers problem..(unless your indanger)
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:58:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaDanby: I'ld let the Range worry about it. It's their business and license thats in jeopardy in addition to the shooter. I might mention it to the range boss if he's the kind of guy that likes to run a tight legal ship. And of course we have the out of state dork blithering his blather about legality of CA laws. They are not "illegal" nor are they unconstitutional, and they are our problem. I'll type slowly so he can understand. The 2nd Amendment applies to the Federal Government and Congress, it does not apply to the State Government. This is one of the areas where the State can make it's own laws. California has no 2nd amendment equivalent in it's State Constitution, ergo the State can make just about any gun law it likes. If you don't understand this, ask it on the Legal board. afch, cripes
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i'll type slower so you might get a clue. The 2nd amendment lists a right of all people, even those living in PRK. Ergo the State can make any law it likes SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE. Forget the legal board, read Silviera vs. Lockyer.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:37:22 PM EDT
I dont know about anyone else, but i wouldnt be walkig up to a guy with an MP5 and informing him of ANYTHING. Simply put, it his busines sif he is following the law or not, and not anyones place to say anything (except the local authorites of course)
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:44:40 PM EDT
In this case, with a supposedely MP5, he would know what he is doing. But if it is a true AWB violation with cheaper / common weapons, and if I think he really doesn't know he is doing, I would tell him a bit about it, but no way in hell that I'm suggesting anything. (does that make any sense?) Oh well dumbass law and me
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:30:56 PM EDT
Wow. My first message. I have been lurking for a long time and this is the one thread that made me break my vow of silence. A little off topic, but illustrative. I ride motorcycles. Do a lot of on and off road riding. This thread is similar to how some of the "better" riders approach riders who choose to not wear any protective gear. While I would never ride without helmet, leathers, gloves, boots and various pieces of body armor, I certainly respect the rights of those who choose to ride in flip flops. It may be leagal, but it ain't smart. Some of the "righteoous" riders will accost these less experienced, more casual, less safety-gear adorned riders trying to evangelize about the virtues of body armor. Reminds me of when the Jehovaha witnesses come to the door (no offense to any JW's here) I see the "comment on the legality" of owning/operating a class III on a public range in the same fashion. I would say, "nice gun" and leave it at that unless the person chooses to be more forthcoming. Then I would try to get a test firing of the "way cool toy". As a recent escapee from PRK to the much more enlightened AZ, my eyes are open and I am having a ton of fun here. Geoff - Applying the asbestos underwear for the esuing flame fest...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:49:17 PM EDT
Some real dumbass people on this thread. Dave85 never acted like he was turning anyone in. Dave85 made the comment
but part of me admires the guy for having some brass ba11s in this Golden Police State of ours...
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Sounds like a good opinion to me. Some of you need to stop acting like tough shit kinda guys. Dave85 has every free right in this country to talk about what he observed at the range. He in no way tried to get any one in trouble. I saw a guy buy a can o beer at the store and get in his truck with it. Am I trying to get him arrested? NO! I just told some e-buddys what I saw today.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:22:08 PM EDT
All I have to say is thank god I live in North Dakota! I think this state is the last bastion of freedom.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:38:07 PM EDT
Siveira don't mean squat. As it stands NOW, both the 9th Circus and Ca Supreme Court, CA AG etc etc etc all agree that the 2nd amendment does not bestow an individual right, and that CA has no 2nd amendment equivalent. If Silveira goes to SCOTUS AND if they rule the desired way, then it will make a difference but as of right now, it doesn't and the laws are as stated. Those are two damn big if, We have to live with the laws as they are now and not what we think they may become. We have to live in the here and now, not in the when and maybe. Fer crying out loud, you wanna complain about another state complain about Jersey, not about someplace 3000 miles away.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:39:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 9:41:01 PM EDT by FireControlman]
I have seen MP5's at indoor ranges here in so cal. The people with them are called off duty law-enforcement officers. Or some other qualified person. No criminals in my book. What threaded barrel?[peep] who..what??
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:47:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FireControlman: What threaded barrel?[peep] who..what??
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[ROFL2] Having no knowledge on A.W. Ban, might be better...such BS law even some LEOs don't know about it.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 12:01:32 AM EDT
Be careful of what you assume at a Gun range you never know who is who. The Guy could have been a cop or a Federal Agent, or just simply have a Permit for his MP5. And because we have been scared $hitless by the AWB doesnt mean that everyone is a scared little Sheep who Runs around everyday Paranoid of Which Gun Laws they might be in violation of today, thats the waY THEY WANT YOU. Next time mind your own business and you might have some fun at the range.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:31:47 AM EDT
I put a Polytech Legend wooden pistol grip on my Rommy AK. ::::puts hands together::: Ok, Im ready for the cuffs. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:19:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 7:21:53 AM EDT by HKocher]
I think the problem here is that the stupid laws are actually working on our own kind here. No, I'm not saying that anyone here is planning on turning in any violators, but the fact that someone would take special notice of someone else's guns troubles me a bit. I have some guns that could cause question, but they are all legit. The last thing I want when I'm spending a relaxing day at the range, is some know-it-all coming up to me and asking if I have my papers, or "is that a preban?" I'm likely to tell someone to mind their business, especially if I get a lecture on the current laws, which I am well aware of. I understand the good citizen in you wants to warn them of any potential laws they are unknowingly breaking, but sometimes you got to let people be accountable for their own actions. Not knowing the laws in CA, I can still guess that there are many legal explanations for the guy with the MP5. First off, it could be a transferable MG with all the proper paperwork. You didn't mention if it was full auto or not, so it could have been lawfully registered as an SBR. Hell, it could have been a HK94 (semi, 16" bbl) legally registered under the AW bans. The guy could have been a local or federal law enforcement type. He could have been a C3 dealer with a post-sample. The list could go on. As far as him being sneaky about it, hell, I don't like people I don't know paying too much attention to my guns, especially when I'm trying to enjoy a nice day at the range and not be bugged too much. Maybe the guy is just sick of folks coming up to him while he's spending quality time with his daughter and asking "can I run a mag through that, man?"
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:47:06 AM EDT
No amendment in the Bill of Rights, in and of itself, applies to any state. The 14th amendment states in part: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" IF the SC states that the 2nd amendment is an individual right (as I hope they do in Silveria or another case soon) then that settles part A of the question, does the right exist. I believe that they must also state that it applies through the 14th to govern state action, part B of the question. They (or another court) must also hold that some statute such as the AWB passed by CA or any other state violates the 2nd amendment, part C. Theoretically you could have a decision that 2nd applies to individuals, governs the states, but allows the banning of certain types of weapons (as in Miller for sawed-off shotgun).
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 7:50:09 AM EDT
Even here, in the Free State of Arizona, I get questions EVERY time I go to the range. Especially when I am shooting the M16 with the 11.5" 7.62x39 upper. Most just ask if it's legal to HAVE one of "those"? Or they ask if I am a cop (I'm not). Or they ask how do you get one of "those"? To the last question I always say: "Go to Sheriff Joe (Arpaio) and ask him if it's OK, wait 3 months to get the answer, get fingerprinted, get some passport photos, fill out a couple of Form 4s, send Uncle Sam $200, wait another 4 months...then you get permission to pick up the one you bought 7 months ago. Oh yeah, expect to pay $XXXX (huge amount) for a firearm that should be selling for $XXX (fill in realistic price here)." Now I enjoy talking with RKIs about C3 stuff & guns in general, both on and off the range, but I really would just like to shoot in peace. -TriggerFish
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 10:19:49 AM EDT
Thanks mzzlebrk, finally someone read my ENTIRE post. Sam_B and arkandspark seem to not have taken thier Ritalin today and just went off without really reading my post. Makes me feel more welcome on this board (being a newbie)when people are polite like you.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:13:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave85: Was at the range the other day shooting my pistols and (legal) SKS when I see this guy in the lane next to me firing an MP5 with all the trimmings (front pistol grip, flash hider, scope, 40 round mag etc..). He even was having his 7 year-old DAUGHTER firing the thing (she could barely lift the thing, he had to help her). So as he walks by me I say "Nice weapon" he says "Thanks". I say "Is that an MP5?" He says "Yes" and walks away. It is then that my light bulb goes on and I realize that the chances of this MP5 being legally registered are slim to none. He was too 'discreet' about it (i.e. not wanting to chat about his weapon, and always returning it to its case between firing loads). Now I don't know what to think about the guy, was he smart to be so discreet, or just plain stupid to bring it to a public range in the PRK? By the way this is also a range where we have substantial 'law enforcement' patronage. Personally I think taking those chances are stupid, but part of me admires the guy for having some brass ba11s in this Golden Police State of ours...
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Guilty until proven innocent huh. Whether he is or isn't why not make a post about the really cool gun you saw at the range. You could add something along the lines of "I don't know if it was on paper or not but that doesn't change how cool it was." if you really felt the need to cast suspicion and aspersions.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:22:37 PM EDT
goldschlagerxx 6/3/2003 1:22:08 AM All I have to say is thank god I live in North Dakota! I think this state is the last bastion of freedom. Well, actually Idaho is but who cares...
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 1:55:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By inferno715: it's not your problem. CA's laws are illegal. if you want to feel better than go rat him out. otherwise i wouldn't say anything. it's their problem if they want to risk it but [red]i could care less what someone else does as long as it's not full auto[/red].
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I fail to understand the logic behind the last part of the statement above. How / why would an unregistered full auto weapon being discharged in a safe and responsible manner at a range become such a terrible crime? No real crime was commited, no injuries, maming, or death. No property was stolen or damaged. I know about NFA '34, but so what, murder and armed robbery were crimes WAY before 1934. Are you suggesting that a murder commited with a full auto is more wrong then a murder commited with a flintlock?
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:01:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 2:02:28 PM EDT by DOA]
Or a baseball bat? Or are we going to ban those next?
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