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Posted: 6/1/2003 6:44:12 PM EDT
I was looking at Troys charts, and was wondering how Les Baer Thunder Ranch .223 and the 223 from Knights Armament compare with my new XM15 M4 carbine Bushy, thanks
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:38:15 AM EDT
I attended the carbine operator's course at Blackwater and played with all sorts of neat toys. The instructors there use Colts, Z-M's, Knight's and all sorts of other guns. If they aren't holding one, then they have used them or watched them in the hands of a student. Guess what most of them choose to shoot? Bushmaster. The advantage of the Les Baer gun? 1/2 MOA accuracy. This is very nice to have. (Accuracy is a good thing.) My 16" Bushy may not shoot 1/2 MOA, but it is definately a sub-MOA rifle. (Putting a 3x9 variable scope I had it as a groundhog rig for a while) There was a stage on the stress course that had 4 swingers that you shot at an angle. The design was such that the front two targets obscured 90% of the rear two, meaning you needed to move to the right to shoot the 2 rear swingers. Well I was there with my humble little iron-sighted 16" Bushy and thought "Hey. I have a good solid position here behind some decent cover. Why would I go giving this position up to move to a less secure one?" So I acted tactically. I amed at the tiny fraction of the rear targets you could see, and threaded the bullet through a space of about 2 inches at 90 or so yards, and blasted those rear swingers good. It was a harder shot than it would have been just moving to the next station, but it showed me that even when my gun is hot (I had already fired a lot of rounds) and even with an iffy zero and hard to see iron sights, my Bushy was more than up to any task I could ask of it up to 150 yards. 200-250 if I am in a good prone position. (But at those ranges the 5.56 55grain round peters out and I would much rather have a 7.62...) A couple of other people attempted this feat after I did, but I was the only one to do it with success. And my rifle didn't have any cool red dot sights or integrated rail system or anything. It just worked. The Les Baer gun is capable of this too. But it comes in at 2500 bucks, where a decent Bushy is 750. My Bushmaster actually has several advantages over the LB gun: 1. Standard Chrome firing pin: The LB's titanium firing pin sounds really cool, but titanium firing pins are more brittle than the hardened steel ones you will find on milspec guns. 2. Lighter: The LB gun weighs almost 8 pounds, and that is before you mount anything on it! (A Garand weighs 9 pounds...) Carbines are supposed to be lightweight and maneuverable. If you don't think this is a problem, then hold your weapon at high ready for 5 minutes (like you would be doing during a felony stop) and tell me then if it matters. 3. Better Ammo Selection: I am not sure what the chamber dimensions on the LB gun are, but if it is shooting 1/2" groups then it is probably pretty tight in there. I am also unsure if it is an actual .223 chambering or a 5.56 chambering. (Most match guns are .223 rather than 5.56x45mm) This means that the LB gun may not cycle well with M193 ball ammo or SS109 ammo which is great for personal defense and can be bought relatively cheaply. (The M193, I mean. SS109 should be reserved for punching through steel plates...) 4. Chrome lined barrel and chamber: This allows you to fire absolute junk (read: Corrosive) ammo in the gun without worry. It makes the gun easier to clean and decreases the likelyhood of corrosion in the bore, even if these parts are neglected and not cleaned. The chromed bore and chamber make for longer lasting parts as well. The LB gun may be more accurate, but it is not more reliable in all sorts of dirty and muddy conditions with all sorts of different ammo and magazines than my Bushy. My whole time at Blackwater my Bushmaster never malfed on me. It got dirty and slowed down a couple of times (you could feel it struggling to get a round chambered) but it kept up. The only malfs I had were traceable to a magazine with busted feed lips. The KAC guns are decent weapons designed for military use, chambered in actual military chamberings. (5.56x45mm) They probably also have chromed bores and chambers, use steel firing pins etc. They are good quality guns. The KAC 5.56 guns MAY be a tad more accurate than some Bushys, but I don't recall ever seeing an accuracy guarantee with them. So without the sub 1/2" MOA guarantee, there is nothing much distinguishing them from a common Bushmaster. But the KAC gun is much more expensive... Bottom line is that most off the shelf Bushmaster guns are probably superior weapons than the ones even issued to most of our frontline troops in the Armed Services. The Bushys perform well and are as reliable as any AR type of weapon can be. Full auto Colt M4's with neat red dot optics and neat light systems and so forth had nothing on my humble little Bushy. My gun shot just as good as the best guns in the class. (And it didn't break on me like a lot of other guns in the class did to their owners...) The gun far exceeds my abilities to use it. (And I am pretty good, as those poor SWAT trained suckers in my class can attest. I outshot or shot as well as all of them on a consistent basis.) A standard Bushmaster gun is a fantastic weapon for personal/home defense. I am very happy with mine and can't see a reason to ever get rid of it. What you have is a great weapon with more potential than you can probably ever wring out of it, and you have it at less than half the price of the other guns mentioned. Sounds like something you should keep...
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:09:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: ...but I don't recall ever seeing an accuracy guarantee with them. So without the sub 1/2" MOA guarantee, there is nothing much distinguishing them from a common Bushmaster...
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Except maybe the RAS, two-stage tigger, hard-chromed bolt assembly, and 300m BUIS. havoc
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:14:53 AM EDT
True. But the RAS is not needed, the two stage trigger is less reliable than the standard AR trigger, and the chromed bolt, while nice, is really not needed.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 11:44:34 AM EDT
"Not needed" is subjective, and based on the individual user. Although YOU may not "need" it, someone else may not see it that way. And why do you say that the two-stage is less reliable than a standard AR trigger? Facts please, not "my buddy's cousin's roommate who knows a SEAL..." b.s. I have heard lots of complaints about KAC rifles, but the two-stage trigger being less reliable than a standard is not one of them. I have only seen about four rifles come back for trigger re-work, and of those two had over 10,000 rounds. The weapons still fired, and safely I might add, but no longer exhibited "match" or "two-stage" characteristics.
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