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Posted: 6/1/2003 10:54:58 AM EDT
If the ban sets I don't think all the LEO weapons and mags will be legal to use. Heres why "for law enforcement/export ect...." means just that and other weapons MP5's (brand new) and a host of others will still not be legal to own. So if all the sudden LEO only means nothing to AR's, high cap mags and a bunch of other stuff but it still applies to say MP5's Mossberg 590's with short barrels and more stuff than i can think of. Then what, will manufactures be required to change the wording... doubt it. All the firearms, night vision, and all the other stuff made between 94 and 04 that aren't legal to own, never where and will not be (save the right paperwork) that are marked LEO/Export need to be identified as such. Are cops gonna have a handbook thats shows this AR is ok but this Steyr Aug isn't because they still don't import new ones except for LEO. I'm confusing myself here trying to get out what I'm saying but, lets here your thoughts. Please I'm begging you to prove me wrong I don't want to be right. Thanks

Glockdog

Airborne!!
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:14:43 AM EDT
The AWB by law restricts the possession of certain weapons...if it (the AWB) no longer exsists, the imposed restrictions no longer exsist. An act or omission can not be illegal (criminal act) without a legislated law making it so, unless covered under Common Law.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:30:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 11:30:46 AM EDT by Mb121]
Originally Posted By glockdog: If the ban sets I don't think all the LEO weapons and mags will be legal to use. Heres why "for law enforcement/export ect...." means just that and other weapons MP5's (brand new) and a host of others will still not be legal to own. So if all the sudden LEO only means nothing to AR's, high cap mags and a bunch of other stuff but it still applies to say MP5's Mossberg 590's with short barrels and more stuff than i can think of. Then what, will manufactures be required to change the wording... doubt it. All the firearms, night vision, and all the other stuff made between 94 and 04 that aren't legal to own, never where and will not be (save the right paperwork) that are marked LEO/Export need to be identified as such. Are cops gonna have a handbook thats shows this AR is ok but this Steyr Aug isn't because they still don't import new ones except for LEO. I'm confusing myself here trying to get out what I'm saying but, lets here your thoughts. Please I'm begging you to prove me wrong I don't want to be right. Thanks Glockdog Airborne!!
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OK well I first got to say is that HK MP5's and the Mossberg SBS's are not weapons of the 1994 Crime Bill, they are NFA weapons, so it has nothing to do with the assault weapons ban. The National Firearms Act relates to any MG, SMG, SBR, SBS, AOW, and the like. It also relates to any firearm having push pin receivers and can be made into fully-automatics with ease, also some other details. The chief of police that I shadowed at hates the ban, and actually stated that many police do because they are hunters, shooters, and outdoorsmen just like everybody else. But he did say that he foresees anything marked LE/Military only staying with the police. Just like the military, you wil hardly be able to buy anything stamped US Gov't Property on the market that isn't presently in the inventory. But only time will tell on that matter.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:36:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mb121:
Originally Posted By glockdog: If the ban sets I don't think all the LEO weapons and mags will be legal to use. Heres why "for law enforcement/export ect...." means just that and other weapons MP5's (brand new) and a host of others will still not be legal to own. So if all the sudden LEO only means nothing to AR's, high cap mags and a bunch of other stuff but it still applies to say MP5's Mossberg 590's with short barrels and more stuff than i can think of. Then what, will manufactures be required to change the wording... doubt it. All the firearms, night vision, and all the other stuff made between 94 and 04 that aren't legal to own, never where and will not be (save the right paperwork) that are marked LEO/Export need to be identified as such. Are cops gonna have a handbook thats shows this AR is ok but this Steyr Aug isn't because they still don't import new ones except for LEO. I'm confusing myself here trying to get out what I'm saying but, lets here your thoughts. Please I'm begging you to prove me wrong I don't want to be right. Thanks Glockdog Airborne!!
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OK well I first got to say is that HK MP5's and the Mossberg SBS's are not weapons of the 1994 Crime Bill, they are NFA weapons, so it has nothing to do with the assault weapons ban. The National Firearms Act relates to any MG, SMG, SBR, SBS, AOW, and the like. It also relates to any firearm having push pin receivers and can be made into fully-automatics with ease, also some other details. The chief of police that I shadowed at hates the ban, and actually stated that many police do because they are hunters, shooters, and outdoorsmen just like everybody else. But he did say that he foresees anything marked LE/Military only staying with the police. Just like the military, you wil hardly be able to buy anything stamped US Gov't Property on the market that isn't presently in the inventory. But only time will tell on that matter.
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Yep I gotcha on the NFA Vs.'94 Crime bill but I'm refering to the fact that there marked LEO/Export hows a cop to really tell whats what if LEO/Export means nothing to some weapons but still applies to others. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:41:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 11:41:53 AM EDT by Mb121]
Well its just a title to show that the magazine is for LE use only. I am sure that when the ban sunsets they will stop the production of the magazines marked LE/Export or military use only, just because of economic reasons, it wouldn't be convient to make two kinds of magazines when the ban is expired. But the ones titled LE/Export only I feel, and so does many cops that I have talked with, will be sold to only LE until they dry up.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 11:44:21 AM EDT
Markings mean nothing. You could have your current production guns marked King of Siam and it still would not mean crap. LEO markings do not make an illegal property, the characteristics of the property make it civilian illegal not markings.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 12:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 1:20:32 PM EDT by mrostov]
Yup, a mag can say pretty much anything and it wll be legal to own after the AWB sunsets. However, if it says something like 'Property of the US Government", you may have to explain just how you came about having the item. ______________
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 1:03:43 PM EDT
David is correct. You may have to answer a few questions, but they are legal. Pete from NH sells lower RRA recievers with US Govt property on them, but doesn't make them ACTUAL US Govt property.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 1:26:37 PM EDT
glockdog you are incorrect.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 3:01:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mrostov: However, if it says something like 'Property of the US Government", you may have to explain just how you came about having the item.
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I bought it officer.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 4:24:33 PM EDT
After the sunset they will all be legal to own(LEO marked mags).
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 4:34:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 4:35:22 PM EDT by glockdog]
Originally Posted By oneshot1kill: After the sunset they will all be legal to own(LEO marked mags).
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firearms too?
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 5:29:37 PM EDT
[Devil's advocate hat on] The BATF, pricks that they are and not happy that the AW ban has sunsetted, "rules" that all weapons manufactured from '94-'04 must remain in what is now considered post-ban status. After all, people sent to prison for violating Prohibition were not released from prison when Prohibition was reversed, were they? [Devil's advocate hat off] Remember, WE always have to offer some kind of "bone" to the other side to ease their pain, but no one gives a flying f**k about us! Of course this all assmes that the damn thing will indeed expire. CALL YOUR REPS!!!
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 5:41:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 5:43:12 PM EDT by FALShootist]
I don't count on the ban sunsetting. I'm worried that it will get worse than it already is and supposedly there are already bills being considered to do just that. Bush said he will support the ban so lets hope that any bill will stall in congress so he does not have a chance to sign it.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 6:45:35 PM EDT
After the ban all mags marked LEO only will mean "Anyone can own" There has never been any night vision banned. What gave you the idea it was? A mag can be marked "property of John Doe." Does that mean its a crime for anyone other than John Doe to posess the mag? Of course not. And so it is with LEO mags. I have some Law Enforcement Only Winchester Ranger ammunition. Winchester will not allow it to be sold to civilians. Is it illegal for me to posess the ammo or use it in self defense? No its not. If something is not specifically banned its not illegal. They cannot say weapons made from 94 to 04 must remain preban because there would need to be a new law drafted to allow that. Laws dont come out of thin air.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:37:09 AM EDT
Yep..I have a registered FA Thompson, a Remington Rand 1911, and a 1917 S&W revolver that all are marked "Property U.S. Government", and are all legal.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 5:58:43 AM EDT
Markings on the product itself mean absolutely NOTHING by themselves. The law has always determined what's legal and what's not. It's just like all that "FOR LEO/GOV'T USE ONLY" buckshot at the local gunshow.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:23:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: After the ban all mags marked LEO only will mean "Anyone can own" There has never been any night vision banned. What gave you the idea it was? A mag can be marked "property of John Doe." Does that mean its a crime for anyone other than John Doe to posess the mag? Of course not. And so it is with LEO mags. I have some Law Enforcement Only Winchester Ranger ammunition. Winchester will not allow it to be sold to civilians. Is it illegal for me to posess the ammo or use it in self defense? No its not. If something is not specifically banned its not illegal. They cannot say weapons made from 94 to 04 must remain preban because there would need to be a new law drafted to allow that. Laws dont come out of thin air.
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Devl, I was refering to anything marked LEO/Export but more on the side of firearms. I said night vision maybe in error but good luck trying to find a PVS-10 thats not marked and even some PVS-14's made before Gen. III technology was released to the public. Your comment was, as always that i've seen right on the mark. The ammo and mags may be a gimmie but I still wonder about how a cop is going to know if a FN Five SeveN http://www.fnmfg.com/products/ind-pr.htm is legal or not it will be marked LEO after the ban, it's just a pistol hows anyone gonna tell whats legal or not if LEO/Export means nothing. Everyone is saying it's the design or characteristics of the weapon that make it banned or illegal but heres a prime example of what I'm trying point out. I think its a given that the US Gov't. sells surplus of things marked as such. Thanks for you comment I've been waiting for it. Glockdog Airborne!!
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:21:33 AM EDT
Local police usually do not concern themselves with the legality of weapons or ammo. When I get pulled over and present my concealed carry permit I am often carrying more than one handgun in the car and at least one assault type rifle. This usually brings about 5 squad cars to the scene and after they take all the weapons to the squad car and have a pow-wow they usually come back to me and ask ME if the weapons are legal or not. Then I get my speeding ticket and and have all my weapons returned to me and I am on my way. Most police dont even know how to use the safety on an AK much less the intracacies of the AWB vs. import laws and they sure as hell dont know how many US parts are in there or what parts count vs ones that dont. This is the realm of the FBI and ATF. If you got popped by Federal Law Enforcement you can rest assured they will go over whatever you have with a fine toothed comb. At that point you are going to jail and will be facing Federal prison time and the weapons chages will be an add on. The only time this would not be the case would be the ATF coming after you for posession of illegal weapons in the first place and they would already know what you have and what they are looking for. In the end local law enforcement just does not care as its not their law to enforce (with some exceptions due to local laws). If they want to take your rifle/mag/whatever else to be dicks they will do it no matter what markings are there or not. The end of the AWB will not change anything except that LEO marked mags and preban features will be legal for everyone. The police can still be dicks, but usually they wont care about what you have.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:19:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By glockdog: Devl, I was refering to anything marked LEO/Export but more on the side of firearms. I said night vision maybe in error but good luck trying to find a PVS-10 thats not marked and even some PVS-14's made before Gen. III technology was released to the public.
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Two things: I have never seen a PVS-10 marked "For Law Enforcement / Military Use Only", and, Gen. III night vision devices were available to civilians long before the PVS-14 was introduced.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:24:49 PM EDT
Does anyone know where you could get a PVS-10?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 1:41:47 PM EDT
I've always hanted to get one of the M9 slides that have "Property of the U.S. Governement" stamped all over it, in big font, maybe even in bright red or something. I think I am going to try to make one, if the ban doesn't sunset.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 2:18:00 PM EDT
It seems to me that when it looks like the AWB is really going to sunset, the Feds/ATF will simply stop bothering with enforcing it. Not that I've heard of anyone getting busted for an AWB violation that wasn't already in trouble for something else. But what would be the point of busting someone if by the time it got to court, it wasn't illegal anymore.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 4:25:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By havoc:
Originally Posted By glockdog: Devl, I was refering to anything marked LEO/Export but more on the side of firearms. I said night vision maybe in error but good luck trying to find a PVS-10 thats not marked and even some PVS-14's made before Gen. III technology was released to the public.
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Two things: I have never seen a PVS-10 marked "For Law Enforcement / Military Use Only", and, Gen. III night vision devices were available to civilians long before the PVS-14 was introduced.
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Well after thinking about what you guys have said I think I'm wrong. Thanks I really do feel better now, not that I like to be wrong but this time was OK. havoc, I've only seen a few PVS-10's atop the Sniper/Scout Remington M24's in the 82nd, if I remember right they where M24's. So if they all are not marked I can believe that. I do somehow doubt that SF, Delta, Seals, and pilots where not sporting Gen. III stuff long before before civilans. Again If I'm wrong well only being 24yrs old with only 3yrs in the ARMY would account for that. Hell People where using NVD's long before I was born (1978 DOB) so I will consider you may know more than I. Quietshootr, good news just join the ARMY tell'em you want to go Airborne Infanty, go to Ranger School and then ask to go LRSD or Scout/Sniper, or you could put in a 4187 for SF School or a Ranger Battalion I'm sure other units have them too though. Glockdog Airborne!!
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