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Posted: 5/29/2003 8:42:18 PM EDT
prove that you added evil features or bought LEO/EXPORT/GOVT mags in the interim when the ban was out of force. I realize if the ban was out of force for day the ATF would assume it was never out of force but what about 3 days, a week, 2 weeks, ect?

Would you need to permanently keep a reciept? What if you bought mags from a LEO friend?

CRC
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:59:07 PM EDT
I was thinking of this exact question last week. I thought of everything from receipts to taking pictures in front of some building being built! I think the best way would be to go the affidavit route and get maybe an LEO to sign off a description or better yet, an ATF official. That would be a kick!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:10:13 PM EDT
All you would have to do is take a pic and mail it to yourself. The USPS would provide the proof of the date it was mailed.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:13:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2003 9:14:14 PM EDT by CRC]
Originally Posted By Bang: All you would have to do is take a pic and mail it to yourself. The USPS would provide the proof of the date it was mailed.
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Not a bad idea but I guess you should order double prints. Mail two pictures at least. CRC
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:13:16 PM EDT
Good Idea, Better yet make it a postcard.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:24:26 PM EDT
As a city cop I know that I would sign and help prove the above for anyone and everyone I could!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:20:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bang: All you would have to do is take a pic and mail it to yourself. The USPS would provide the proof of the date it was mailed.
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that's also a good idea with a new invention/patent on something.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:40:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stickman: As a city cop I know that I would sign and help prove the above for anyone and everyone I could!
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So your job conveys some sort of notary public authority? I can certainly understand one citizen acting as witness for another, and if the witness is of good character, so much the better. But I am confused as to where holding a job working for the city as a cop comes into play? When you say, "As a city cop..." does that mean you'd provide documentation that conveyed some special authority derived from your job? Would this documentation given "as a city cop" be written on department letter head? What exactly does being a city cop have to do with the veracity of any document you may sign, Stick?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:37:19 AM EDT
Ellery_Holt, You are right, much better that I should be a dick to everyone, what was I ever thinking....
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:16:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 2:17:06 AM EDT by rickinvegas]
Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt: What exactly does being a city cop have to do with the veracity of any document you may sign, Stick?
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Now that I think of it, a signed affidavit from Habib working at the 7-11 would be much more persuasive in court than one from a sworn peace officer. Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:29:46 AM EDT
Hell. just get that days news paper and the gun together in the pic and you have solid proof.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 2:56:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Hell. just get that days news paper and the gun together in the pic and you have solid proof.
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Won't work. I can dress up in 70s clothes, get a receiver, assemble an SP-1, take a picture of me with said gun, bellbottoms, AND A NEWSPAPER FROM THE 70'S, and it is proof? PROVES TIME IN THE WRONG "DIRECTION"...
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:03:32 AM EDT
1.) The way I understand it, it is legal to manufacture a firearm for yourself, without a lisence, as long as you're not making a business of it. 2.) IIRC, manufacturers providing written proof that a pre-ban was built before the cutoff date is adequate proof that your pre-ban is legal. 3.) Taking those two above, would it not work that you simply document that you manufactured an assault weapon on that date?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:09:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CRC: prove that you added evil features or bought LEO/EXPORT/GOVT mags in the interim when the ban was out of force. I realize if the ban was out of force for day the ATF would assume it was never out of force but what about 3 days, a week, 2 weeks, ect? Would you need to permanently keep a reciept? What if you bought mags from a LEO friend? CRC
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Don't you guys get it? IF the date reaches 14 Sept 2004, (Here is the important part...) ...AND THERE IS NOT A NEWLY APPROVED AW BAN, the term preban and postban are OBSOLETE. Period. ALL AR's are now "Just ARs". IT WILL BE AS IF THE LAW NEVER HAPPENED. IF YOU FIND A LEO MAGAZINE ON THE STREET, GUESS WHAT? WHERE IS NO LAW INEXISTENCE ANYWHERE THAT WILL ENFORCE THAT. WANT TO ADD A BAYO LUG AND COLLAPSIBLE STOCK TO YOUR RRA? NO PROBLEM! WANT TO BUY A LEO RECEIVER FROM A COP ON 14 SEPT 2004? WELL, WRITE A CHECK OR GIVE HIM CASH, BECAUSE IT WON'T MATTER! WHY, YOU ASK? Because when the law sunsets, they rip it up, wipe their buttocks with it after a night of eating at Taco Bell, and then they burn it. It ceases to exist. all provisions, GONE. Al restrictions: gone. The need to carry a serial numbers list with you to gun shows to make sure it was assembled before 13 sept 94? GONE. I'll put this in red so everyone sees this: [red]IF THIS STILL CONFUSES YOU, ONCE THE DATE REACHES 14 SEPT 2004 (AND NO NEW AWB), IT WILL BE AS THOUGH WE TIMETRAVELED BACK TO 1989, THE DAY AFTER THE IMPORT BAN PASSED.[/red] IF they try to pass a NEW ban AFTER the sunset date, they would have to get rid of the grandfather clause, which would be damn impossible, since it would make americans CRIMINALS by passing a law AFTER they had "Broken the law". That is too extreme for 80% of all gun HATERS, much less a NRA-rated "A".
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:42:27 AM EDT
... If all else fails you, I can PhotoShop you a dated picture for a small fee. [/kidding] ... BTW, [b]Mugzilla[/b] appears to have a quite clear understanding of this.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:05:18 AM EDT
Roger Dodger Mugzi. As if there was never a ban! If the AWB law expires even for one hour before a new law is put in, only firearms manufactured after the date of the new law are affected. That's the way I see it. As for all this talk about letters and proof,it might be a good idea but I don't need them.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:39:05 AM EDT
The new law could (theoretically) require all mags made post whenever to be marked LEO ONLY AWB2. That way they could tell which ones were made after AWB2. If it just said LEO ONLY it would be pre-ban.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 10:08:15 AM EDT
No Need to worry, This Ban is here to stay !!!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:37:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 11:39:44 AM EDT by Seth_Livzz]
Originally Posted By fell-off-the-truck: No Need to worry, This Ban is here to stay !!!!! [:D]
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?????? Do you know something the rest of us are missing out on?
Originally posted by Ellery_Holt: So your job conveys some sort of notary public authority? I can certainly understand one citizen acting as witness for another, and if the witness is of good character, so much the better. But I am confused as to where holding a job working for the city as a cop comes into play? When you say, "As a city cop..." does that mean you'd provide documentation that conveyed some special authority derived from your job? Would this documentation given "as a city cop" be written on department letter head? What exactly does being a city cop have to do with the veracity of any document you may sign, Stick?
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Someone tries to show he is willing to help and he gets a bunch of bullshit grief. Amazing, simply amazing.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:52:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fell-off-the-truck: No Need to worry, This Ban is here to stay !!!!! [:D]
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Stop trollin'
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:36:33 PM EDT
This is all a lot of what-if. No one knows what they would do, because no one knows what the theoretical new legislation would read, or how it would be enforced. And why do you all assume that Elery_Holt is being a prick? That's the same question that popped into my head.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:41:48 PM EDT
Are cops not notary publics? When my mom was a records clerk for the PD, she was. Of course, she can't notarize for her own family, but I reckon I could get one of her friends to come notarize something if that were needed...
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:35:08 PM EDT
Sorry Mug but if there is a gap, the Govt will treat you like a criminal. Do you think Feinstein cares? She wants you in jail. The problems caused by a gap are not her concerns. CRC
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:39:59 PM EDT
Mugzilla is right in regards to serial numbers having no regard on pre and post ban but if a new ban is in place all mags that are currently marked LEO use only will still be illegal.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:59:52 PM EDT
You could take a series of 35mm photos of the assembled firearms that display the serial numbers. On the back of each picture, print and sign an affidavit that said serial numbered receiver is assembled as pictured on that date, and have the pictures notarized (by a notary public, not a police officer). Make copies. Give the originals to your lawyer, and get a dated recipt from him.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:12:38 PM EDT
This is the most retarded thread I've read to date!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ZRH:
Originally Posted By fell-off-the-truck: No Need to worry, This Ban is here to stay !!!!! [:D]
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Stop trollin'
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He's not trolling, he's hoping... he's putting all his pennies into preban AR's betting they're going to hold their value, but I'm betting he's wrong...
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:36:03 PM EDT
Bravo!!!!! markm
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 5:43:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fell-off-the-truck: No Need to worry, This Ban is here to stay !!!!! [:D]
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From my Rep. Thank you for writing me regarding the possible reauthorization of the semi-automatic weapons ban. I always appreciate you taking the time to share your views on this issue. At this stage in the l08th Congress, it appears unlikely that House leadership will take action on a bill to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. Although Rep. McCarthy of New York has introduced such a bill, Majority Leader Delay noted that there is not enough support for H.R. 2038 to bring it to the floor. If this bill was brought to the floor, I would not support it. It could be the first step toward enacting bans on other weapons. I believe that gun control measures, such as registration and taxation, will do nothing to stop guns from falling into the hands of lawbreakers. Furthermore, the federal government should not be able to keep a registry of gun owners or tax individuals specifically because they own a gun. Individuals will always find a way to obtain guns in order to commit crimes, and additional restrictions on gun ownership will do nothing to combat crime. I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms. In the l08th Congress, I will maintain my commitment to protecting the rights of law abiding gun owners. Henry Brown
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:40:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 6:46:12 PM EDT by adh]
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: I'll put this in red so everyone sees this: [red]IF THIS STILL CONFUSES YOU, ONCE THE DATE REACHES 14 SEPT 2004 (AND NO NEW AWB), IT WILL BE AS THOUGH WE TIMETRAVELED BACK TO 1989, THE DAY AFTER THE IMPORT BAN PASSED.[/red]
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This is an incorrect statement. It will take us back in time to 1994. The 1989 import ban (created by executive order by the back stabbing/lying father of the current president) will not be affected. You will not see the new importation of a $250 AK or the $500 HK91 ever again. When the ban sunsets it just means that we get evil features back on American made weapons. Edited to add that being taken back to 1994 is at least a good thing, just not as good as going back to 1989, or better yet pre may 1986 when you could still manufacture a transferable machinegun. A man can have a dream.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 6:57:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: From my Rep.... Henry Brown
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Wait a minute, was that a politician being sensible? How did that happen?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:14:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By adh:
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: I'll put this in red so everyone sees this: [red]IF THIS STILL CONFUSES YOU, ONCE THE DATE REACHES 14 SEPT 2004 (AND NO NEW AWB), IT WILL BE AS THOUGH WE TIMETRAVELED BACK TO 1989, THE DAY AFTER THE IMPORT BAN PASSED.[/red]
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This is an incorrect statement. It will take us back in time to 1994. The 1989 import ban (created by executive order by the back stabbing/lying father of the current president) will not be affected. You will not see the new importation of a $250 AK or the $500 HK91 ever again. When the ban sunsets it just means that we get evil features back on American made weapons. Edited to add that being taken back to 1994 is at least a good thing, just not as good as going back to 1989, or better yet pre may 1986 when you could still manufacture a transferable machinegun. A man can have a dream.
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IIRC, the BATFE web sites talks just a little bit about the criteria for deciding that a weapon is not sporting. Apparantly, after the '94 ban, they noticed that SAWs were usually able to accept high-cap mags. As such, they decided that guns that accept high-caps usually aren't sporting. If high-caps become legal, they MIGHT just decide that they're sporting again...
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:00:12 PM EDT
I'm amazed at what ppl are still asking for pre ban AR15's right now. Do they know something Tom Delay doesn't know? Who will want a slabside green label Colt when you can go get a new RRA with all the goodies for less than a stripped slabside lower is going for now? Go check a gun list from 1992/3 and check the prices for Colt's and Bushmasters...that's where this is going. Some that same otherwise probably wished they invested in a Famas or a 550 because those are something that is truly rare...a Colt or a Bushmaster isn't.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:16:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 9:17:10 PM EDT by ZRH]
This is an incorrect statement. It will take us back in time to 1994. The 1989 import ban (created by executive order by the back stabbing/lying father of the current president) will not be affected. You will not see the new importation of a $250 AK or the $500 HK91 ever again. When the ban sunsets it just means that we get evil features back on American made weapons. Edited to add that being taken back to 1994 is at least a good thing, just not as good as going back to 1989, or better yet pre may 1986 when you could still manufacture a transferable machinegun. A man can have a dream.
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Im always a sad person, the 1986 M gun ban went into effect 11 days after I was born. IMHO the NRA could do a little more for us (the "collector dudes" or "terrorist" depending on whos side your on) it seems like all they want is rights for deer hunters. One thing at a time though. The funny thing is that some of the countries that the VPC and CO. use as statistics usually have some kinda a collectors license for people wanting machine guns (Norway, New Zealand, Finland) and EBWs (except Japan where there are no guns and life is happy... yeah right). A question import guns though. If the companys (HK, SIG etc.) estabilshed manufactering centers in the US we could have the '89 guns right? Because then they would be US made guns. Just a thought. Also the people of the US of A are the largest arms market in the world by far. Money gets things done.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:07:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 11:08:39 PM EDT by Ellery_Holt]
Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Originally posted by Ellery_Holt: So your job conveys some sort of notary public authority? I can certainly understand one citizen acting as witness for another, and if the witness is of good character, so much the better. But I am confused as to where holding a job working for the city as a cop comes into play? When you say, "As a city cop..." does that mean you'd provide documentation that conveyed some special authority derived from your job? Would this documentation given "as a city cop" be written on department letter head? What exactly does being a city cop have to do with the veracity of any document you may sign, Stick?
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Someone tries to show he is willing to help and he gets a bunch of bullshit grief. Amazing, simply amazing.
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Oops -- It's too bad I didn't put in some emoticons with smiles and such. I'm afraid I came across as questioning the sincerity and kindness of Mr. Stickman. I'm not questioning his motivation, but I do honestly wonder about the notary-public type service he's extending from his position as a city cop. My question is well intentioned, entirely legitimate and remains unanswered.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 8:30:38 AM EDT
Ok fellas,the 1st gun control act was passed in 1934.We haven't had a single gun control law repealled. We haven't had any of our rights that were stripped returned.So what makes anyone so sure the ban will sunset.It will slide in attached to some other bill.[soapbox]
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 8:42:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 8:42:46 AM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
[b]We haven't had any of our rights that were stripped returned[/b] It must be my imagination that states are passing CCW laws (a lot SHALL ISSUE) that in effect repeal the limitations on our second amendment right to bear arms.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 9:59:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: From my Rep. (snip) Henry Brown
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Would you ask him if he'd mind moving up northeast? We need reps like him up here in a bad way.
Link Posted: 6/1/2003 9:05:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2003 9:30:28 PM EDT by PrudentGT]
Originally Posted By ZRH: A question import guns though. If the companys (HK, SIG etc.) estabilshed manufactering centers in the US we could have the '89 guns right? Because then they would be US made guns. Just a thought.
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Actually there are a couple firms looking into manufacturing 55x series rifles here in the USA, starting w/ Sig receivers and just enough parts to make them domestically manufactured. I'm saving my pennies and am looking forward to moving to a free state in the not too distant future... ;)
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 12:07:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: [b]We haven't had any of our rights that were stripped returned[/b] It must be my imagination that states are passing CCW laws (a lot SHALL ISSUE) that in effect repeal the limitations on our second amendment right to bear arms.
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How do you figure it is a return of rights? We have a right to carry anyway. The Gov't can remove that if they wish to. It is an infringement on our rights just to have to pay to utilize a right guarrenteed to us by the US Constitution! We elect these people and all they do is shit on us and the Constitution and when they ALLOW us something we ll suck their dicks and kiss their asses ! Comprimise is not an option! We must stick to or principles and stand by them.Look at welfare and all the bullshit social programs. Name pone that has been taken away.When The Gov't institutes a law it rarely if ever gets removed. Don't mention Prohibition.[soapbox]
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:06:13 AM EDT
In that instant that the ban expires, it would no longer be necessary to prove anything about the gingerbread you hang on your rifle. No receipts needed, no photos, as there would be no law to require it. And some thing the current AWB requires you to prove your preban had those features. Before the ban, it was not necessary to document purchases of accessories or modifications. Also, other than bull target barrels, I never saw a simple crowned barrel on an AR15 before the ban. I never saw an AR without a bayonet lug either. To expect a gun owner to be precognizant of a future law, and be prepared to comply with a law not yet written, is unreasonable. And any reasonable jury would agree.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:16:15 AM EDT
How do you figure it is a return of rights? We have a right to carry anyway. The Gov't can remove that if they wish to. It is an infringement on our rights just to have to pay to utilize a right guarrenteed to us by the US Constitution! We elect these people and all they do is shit on us and the Constitution and when they ALLOW us something we ll suck their dicks and kiss their asses ! Comprimise is not an option! We must stick to or principles and stand by them.Look at welfare and all the bullshit social programs. Name pone that has been taken away.When The Gov't institutes a law it rarely if ever gets removed. Don't mention Prohibition.[soapbox]
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It must be my imagination that I can drive in excess of 55 mph on an interstate hiway.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:17:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man: To expect a gun owner to be precognizant of a future law, and be prepared to comply with a law not yet written, is unreasonable. And any reasonable jury would agree.
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Well said. I reckon that I didn't really think about that way, before...
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 4:07:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By adh:
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: I'll put this in red so everyone sees this: [red]IF THIS STILL CONFUSES YOU, ONCE THE DATE REACHES 14 SEPT 2004 (AND NO NEW AWB), IT WILL BE AS THOUGH WE TIMETRAVELED BACK TO 1989, THE DAY AFTER THE IMPORT BAN PASSED.[/red]
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This is an incorrect statement. It will take us back in time to 1994. The 1989 import ban (created by executive order by the back stabbing/lying father of the current president) will not be affected.
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Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast? Read my words that you quoted again! WHEN the ban sunsets, we fall back to the last infringement on our 2nd amendment rights. That was,... DING DING DING DING!!! The 89 import ban. I DO realize the 89 does not sunset. I realize it is an executive order and NOT a law.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 5:37:17 AM EDT
A question. If it appears certain that the ban will expire...will the BATF have a "cutoff date" for prosecution and manufacture of banned features? In other words will the BATF allow hi-cap mags for civilian sales to enter production before 9/04? Even if they are sold after the sunset?
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:45:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mugzilla:
Originally Posted By adh:
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: I'll put this in red so everyone sees this: [red]IF THIS STILL CONFUSES YOU, ONCE THE DATE REACHES 14 SEPT 2004 (AND NO NEW AWB), IT WILL BE AS THOUGH WE TIMETRAVELED BACK TO 1989, THE DAY AFTER THE IMPORT BAN PASSED.[/red]
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This is an incorrect statement. It will take us back in time to 1994. The 1989 import ban (created by executive order by the back stabbing/lying father of the current president) will not be affected.
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Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast? Read my words that you quoted again! WHEN the ban sunsets, we fall back to the last infringement on our 2nd amendment rights. That was,... DING DING DING DING!!! The 89 import ban. I DO realize the 89 does not sunset. I realize it is an executive order and NOT a law.
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Guess what, You are not correct on your first statement. Sec 922 (r) (U.S. parts count)was added a couple of months after the 89 ban , there was a brief period when parts could be imported then assembled here. 922 (r) says that you must have a certain ammount of US parts or the gun is considered "imported". Federal gun laws are SO totally messed up.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:58:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2003 7:59:39 AM EDT by ANGST]
Originally Posted By gewamser: A question. If it appears certain that the ban will expire...will the BATF have a "cutoff date" for prosecution and manufacture of banned features? In other words will the BATF allow hi-cap mags for civilian sales to enter production before 9/04? Even if they are sold after the sunset?
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It's actually not up to the ATF on this, whatever the new laws says , would be what the law is. It could say anything before 9/94 is fine , and not allow and grandfathering of anything in the gap. Maybe if the pass the law on 12/04 then anything pre-12/04 will not be banned , if the new laws says we have to turn in all semis, no matter when they were made, well that will be the law then. This whole discussion is completely irrelavent , as we have no idea what the new law will read. Hopefully it will just go away.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 8:19:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnphin:
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man: To expect a gun owner to be precognizant of a future law, and be prepared to comply with a law not yet written, is unreasonable. And any reasonable jury would agree.
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Well said. I reckon that I didn't really think about that way, before...
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this is not exactly true as current prebans are required to have some sort of proof of being a preban (even though by letter of law the burden of proof is on the govt.) which means that a preban owners we are counting on either our own "proof" that these guns were made into asault style weapons before then ban. some of us were precognizent of the upcoming ban and made sure things were in order to prove this. just as some are hypothesizing about now.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 9:57:45 AM EDT
Kill this thread plz. IBTL
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:03:24 AM EDT
Save you money, it never hurt to have some money in the bank when the time comes, if it happens great, buy the stuff you want, if the ban continues, then that is fine too, you have a saving account to show for now. invest it for your retirement.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:31:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: It must be my imagination that I can drive in excess of 55 mph on an interstate hiway.
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What [b][size=6]CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENT[/size=6][/b] is that covered under?
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