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Posted: 5/29/2003 11:31:21 AM EDT

I met a nice, young, soon to be Marine at the range the other day. Must of been about 17 or 18.

He had a Rommy AK, SA M1A, and a home built AR15, so I went over to talk to him.

He let me shoot his M1A, as I don't have one yet, and we began BSing for awhile.

I noticed his 20" AR-15A2 had an A2 flashhider and bayo lug. I looked it over and noticed it had an ASA lower. hmmm...
He mentioned that him and his dad had built the rifle and had 2 more at home. I didn't want to start interrogating him about his "evil" features, so I just started bitching about my own Bushy AR's loud muzzle brake. He then said that he liked the flashhider, even though it was illegal.

So, the kid and his father were not ignorant on the issue, but just decided to ignore it. He told me about his M-4 build with collapsable stock, etc., etc.

I just nodded and told him he had cool stuff.

I waked away even more aware of how dumb the AWB really is. This kid was bright, fit, and was joining the Marine Corps right out of high school. A true patriot. Yet, in the government's eye, he is a FELON.


Just thought I'd share this w/ ya'll.



Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:45:43 AM EDT
Seems to me if you own it, you better shoot it in private, not at a public range.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:47:17 AM EDT
what a dumbass
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 12:02:17 PM EDT
dumbass? for knowingly violating an unconstitutional law? no. for telling people that he was... yes. fuck anyone who thinks we should roll over on protecting out rights because IT IS THE LAW... it is B.S. just like all of the other schemes enforced by our favorite branch of the [s]treasury department[/s] well whoever they work for now.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 12:16:04 PM EDT
It's everyone's own business what laws they obey with their own weapons, the AWB is unconstitutional after all. But.....I don't think it is worth bringing such weapon that is in violation of the AWB to a public range. He is risking his right to own any weapons for the rest of his life (however far fetched it may be that he actually get caught). Everyone who doesn't agree with the current lesgislation should be writing letters left and right! Assembling illeagal firearms and taking them into public is just plain dumb, IMO of course.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 12:32:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By colinjay: dumbass? for knowingly violating an unconstitutional law? no. for telling people that he was... yes. fuck anyone who thinks we should roll over on protecting out rights because IT IS THE LAW... it is B.S. just like all of the other schemes enforced by our favorite branch of the [s]treasury department[/s] well whoever they work for now.
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ditto
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 12:57:00 PM EDT
the guy is risking NOTHING.... NATHA.... there are violations everywhere. Every gun show i have been to there are violations...Almost every ak i see has a violation on it... hell the M4 profile barrel is a violation as it accomodates a grenade launcher. Of course i don't think its worth the alleged risk but thats just me..... the guy is not a felon in the eyes of the Govt either... they could give 10 shits about this kinda stuff...seriously. Lets just kill this lame group of laws so we can all move on : ) LittleJacek
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:02:16 PM EDT
He was not a dumbass. I don't stop shooting and spend 20 minutes talking to [:E] types. In fact, he was one of the most well-spoken, polite young men I've met in a while. I think his dad may be a bit of a dumbass though, for letting his son take out his illegal rifles. I guess my point was, I figured if I ever ran into this kinda thing that I WOULD tell the "felon" he was a dunbass. But, in this case, it just made me realize how this particular "mala prohibitum" law is ridiculous.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:18:54 PM EDT
good for him
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:32:13 PM EDT
Maybe the dumbass thought that it was well time to quit putting up with the bullshit and do what he felt like.......it would be a perfect test case for the AWB...maybe the NRA would get.....naw they like the AWB.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 1:40:40 PM EDT
thats the problem right there... making the penalties for violation so stiff that NO ONE is willing to be a "test case" anal rape in the fed pen or a sucking chest wound from a no-knock just arent worth it to ANYONE... thats why there WONT be a "test case"
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 2:01:01 PM EDT
The "law" violates constitutional amendments, and as such is only "illegal" to liberals. We may not choose to use these features ourselves, but if someone else does, good for them, they are excersizing their god given rights in owning something other then a deer rifle. We as a group need to stop this. If one can agree that the right to keep and bear firearms shall not be infringed, then I do not see where we should be caring if SOMEONE else has a dinky piece of metal that accepts a bayo, or a flash hider. It is their right to own a firearm, I do not remember the second amendment saying "the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except where evil features as described by liberals shall appear. then only the gov't may use said arms." Good for him, if EVERYONE had the cajones to go ahead and just do it, this unjust law would be revealed for the laughing matter that it is. Until then, shut the yap, and let the good folk enjoy their day w/o you coming back to report their evilness on an evil gun forum hehe.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 2:02:03 PM EDT
Seen that and dont give a damn. Think of it as he is protesting at his own expense. GG
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 3:20:38 PM EDT
This guy's a Marine who gets issued AUTOMATIC M-16s with all the goodies? Yeah the ATF would be stupid to go after this guy. He's not the only person out there doing this I would suspect. CRC
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:03:20 PM EDT
Exactly. LittleJacek
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:05:28 PM EDT
Stupid kid for a variety of reasons. Gonna be a Marine? Not if he gets arrested for a violation like that, cuz they are going to say "Take a hike. come back when the trial is over." He comes back with a Felony conviction, "Adios", a major fireams misdemeanor? well that'l go to the Chief Judge Advocate for a waiver. If and that's a big IF he gets a waiver, he ain't gonna get a Clearance. Now if you are in fact smart and can't get a clearance, you think the jobs you are eligible for in the Corps are going to be of any interest?? This all assumes he doesn't get time for the felony confiction, cuz they aren't gonna find one bad gun, they are gonna get a warrant and search the house and the shit hits the fan then. Several, unless the family follows the brilliant advice here and other places and tries to shoot it out for the principle of the thing. Assuming they do in fact get smart (a little late but not too late) and decide to become the test case. How many years and how many $$$ Anybody that thinks illegal weapons aren't checked at the shows ain't been at the right shows. that's the kicker that sent GW out of Pomona. yeah most of the bad guns weren't and were a bogus bust, but a few were righteous busts and that was all it took to push the Anti's case to their side. If you want to be the test case go ahead, but letting your kid be the test case when he has so much riding on things in the near future is a little ??? Now if it was the kids decision, well maybe he isn't as smart as he thought.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:39:12 PM EDT
Personally, I wouldn't chance it. Although, I do use my dad's LEO-only Glock mags at the range. Oh well. In reality, I have never met a cop who knew what the hell the AWB was. Now, trying to sell that stuff at a gun show is a different story.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:42:54 PM EDT
Doesn't the law say "manufacture of an AW"? Possession is not listed as far as I know, meaning his worst situation would be a confiscation of the rifle unless he admitted to "manufacturing" it?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:53:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fistpoint: Doesn't the law say "manufacture of an AW"? Possession is not listed as far as I know, meaning his worst situation would be a confiscation of the rifle unless he admitted to "manufacturing" it?
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18 USC 922(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:09:58 PM EDT
I saw a preban upper for sale on a post-ban oly lower with a post-ban tele-stock for $800.00 at a local pawn/gun store. Even the tag said pre-ban upper on it. I asked about it and the owner said it had been traded in by somebody. It looked brand new to me. I didn't buy it, but I agree that local law enforcement will not know the difference in a pre or post ban rifle and at the range, no one cares. The awb is the biggest joke.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 5:25:26 PM EDT
[c][b]Origially posted by hound: maybe the NRA would get.....naw they like the AWB[/b][/c] how can you make a statement like that after the ass reeeeeming LaPiere gave CNN a couple a weeks ago. [url=users.zoominternet.net/~pcfitz]P.I.G.S.[/url]
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:23:21 PM EDT
I am constantly amazed when I go into a gun shop and find L.E. only or post ban dated magazines sitting out in plain sight for the general public to purchase . I am even more surprised when the shop owners tell me ,"Who cares" . Yeah "who cares", its only a felony and if caught they would probably wind up harassing the shop owners until they couldnt stay in business anymore . I realize that Gun control laws are unconstitutional but flagrantly violating them in public may not be the wisest choice one could make . The key to breaking the law without going to prison is not getting caught and not getting caught means exercising some discretion .
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:31:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By paraman1: I am constantly amazed when I go into a gun shop and find L.E. only or post ban dated magazines sitting out in plain sight for the general public to purchase . I am even more surprised when the shop owners tell me ,"Who cares" . Yeah "who cares", its only a felony and if caught they would probably wind up harassing the shop owners until they couldnt stay in business anymore . I realize that Gun control laws are unconstitutional but flagrantly violating them in public may not be the wisest choice one could make . The key to breaking the law without going to prison is not getting caught and not getting caught means exercising some discretion .
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Nobody really cares about the AWB except ATF agents trying to kiss butt on superiors or get a promotion. CRC
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 8:59:59 PM EDT
Legally this has the makings of a Ruby Ridge for this individual. Ethically, who are we to judge his or his fathers intelligence by calling them a dumbass, especially to their face while they are holding an assault rifle. It would be safe to say he had a lapse of good judgement though for not considering the consequenses of bringing an illegal firearm into public view. My policy is if it does'nt effect me I'm not going to worry about it. To each his own, live and let live, make love not war...I would have done nothing or said nothing.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 9:30:24 PM EDT
I'm a cop, and I have jurisdiction over a fairly large area, including several outdoor ranges. I have seen several people that have weapons with improper features, and I really don't care. Decent people out shooting and enjoying their weapons in a responsible fashion? God bless em all, most LEOs don't know about the AWB, and most of the ones that do are against it! I have much better things to do with my time than worry about things like that!!
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 10:49:44 PM EDT
Ditto What Stickman said. The AWB is a Federal Concern, most State and City Cops dont give a Rat$ as$ about it , Even some ATF people knows that the AWB is pure BS, stands to reason why so few people have ever been prosecuted for these Violations.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:28:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stickman: I'm a cop, and I have jurisdiction over a fairly large area, including several outdoor ranges. I have seen several people that have weapons with improper features
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May I ask a silly question? How do you know that the features are improper with running the serial numbers past the manufacturer to know when the gun was made?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:33:23 PM EDT
Hell, I once met a young guy at an open public range (on Federal forest land) who showed off his SKS he had "tweaked" to go full auto--and this is in Californistan! I was astonished...he was firing the damned thing too (sounded like it was 1,000 rpm). Range officers probably just thought he was bumping the SKS. No one looked twice. And of course it didn't bother me either--but I was still surprised.
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 11:38:08 PM EDT
The range officers at the local range here are constantly announcing over the loudspeaker that "Some of the shooters on the line appear to have illegal weapons. The PD frequently does weapon checks at this range for this reason." I have never, [i]ever[/i], seen this take place or heard of the PD doing anything like this. The owners of these "illegal" weapons keep coming back to the range with their weapons unchanged.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:40:03 AM EDT
AnyMouse I'll assume your question was meant in an honest way. When people have certain recievers, it is obvious they aren't preban. You don't need to look up serial numbers. Would you pay preban prices for a CavArms, RRA or Oly that said PCR on the side? Obviously not.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:11:02 AM EDT
Only Anti-American deviants would blatantly violate a just and Constitutional piece of legislation! Our Presidents always know what they're doing. These laws are here to protect the citizens of this Great Democracy from criminals and terrorists alike. Support renewal of the Assault Weapon's Ban! Do it for the children!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 3:28:31 AM EDT
We just think that he didn't look at the consequences. Maybe he did, and maybe he doesn't care. At this point, I, for one, care. I don't want to go to prison if I don't have to. That being said, assuming that I don't own ANY guns, would it be illegal to call the BATFE and tell them that I have an illegal assault weapon just to see what they do? If so, what law would it be breaking (and is it a felony?)?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 4:51:34 AM EDT
Note my signature.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:10:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 8:11:09 AM EDT by StewartTR]
I have asked the preban on post ban lower question to a few dealers and gun shows and judging by their response I think they thought I was an undercover ATF agent or something. I learned not to ask. However I was purchasing a $1300 M1A at the local range and decided this might be a good time to ask the question again and get an honest answer. Here is how it went. Me: "What are the chances of anyone saying anything to you if you put a Preban upper on a Postban lower?" Dealer: "Slim to none." Also I have been to a gun show where I have been told the ATF always has undercover agents and saw a dealer selling post ban weapons with preban uppers. There was a little note that said buyer must promise to remove flash suppressor and bayo lug after purchase. (yeah right) It seems to me that the dealer, note or not would have gotten a leg tanning by the ATF if anyone really cared. Take if for what it's worth but I still haven't partaken of the forbidden fruit. Even a slim chance is too much especially when it's going to expire in a little over a year.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:14:09 AM EDT
i've seen people do this with colts. They take a post pan lower a put a colt preban upper on it.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:30:35 AM EDT
If the awb was enforced, don't you think that all these pre-ban uppers and features would be banned from further public sale unless you had a matching serial number to prove that you actually owned a pre-ban? It's too easy, especially on an AR-15 to switch uppers and go about your business. I think that even the feds know that the awb cannot be enforced, just like drug laws. Unless they start knocking on peoples doors and doing suprise checks, who's going to know and who's going to care?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:36:56 AM EDT
Which gun laws are Constitutional?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:44:34 AM EDT
If you ask me, I think the AWB and like laws are used more as a "gottcha, now you've got to work for us" or as a secondary charge heaped on to another primary charge. You know the type... 'Plea to *such and such* and this AWB violation goes away.. Otherwise, its 10 (or whatever) more years for you." It's a leverage law that is nearly unenforceable on it's own, IMHO.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:53:24 AM EDT
yup its a plea bargain stacker. the Pros. stacks as many violations up as possible and will drop usually all but 1 for a plea..... nothing more... LittleJacek
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 8:56:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stickman: I'm a cop, and I have jurisdiction over a fairly large area, including several outdoor ranges. I have seen several people that have weapons with improper features, and I really don't care. Decent people out shooting and enjoying their weapons in a responsible fashion? God bless em all, most LEOs don't know about the AWB, and most of the ones that do are against it! I have much better things to do with my time than worry about things like that!!
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I imagine that an AWB charge is rarely, if ever, the primary charge in a case. Instead, it's probably piled onto a more serious charge in an effort to put the guy away for longer or to add more onto the pile in case a plea is introduced. Am I correct or do I need to lay off the crack pipe?
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 9:27:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2003 9:31:29 AM EDT by ZRH]
I dont think hes a dumbass. Its called civil disobediance, same shit those damn wussie tree hugging hippies always pull. If no one obeys a law and no one enforces it, is it still a law? Ive been to gun shows where they are selling LEO 30 round mags to anyone and there are state troopers stationed at all the doors and no one was getting arrested. i think the only people who would arrest you are the ATF and then only if they felt particulary evil that day. The only "stupid" thing he did was tell everyone.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 10:41:31 AM EDT
What about all of those band new 30 round mags with the little sticker that says "ENGLAND" on them(I have several myself [:)]). There are zillions of them! You mean to tell me they have been laying around in a warehouse somewhere forgotten since 1994. [:\]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 10:49:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StewartTR: What about all of those band new 30 round mags with the little sticker that says "ENGLAND" on them(I have several myself [:)]). There are zillions of them! You mean to tell me they have been laying around in a warehouse somewhere forgotten since 1994. [:\]
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those actually conform to the letter fo the law as there is no way for the buyer to ascertain the date of manufacture as there is no date code or serial number. as to whomever imports them through questionable means, that is a different story. OTOH putting a pre-ban upper and telestock on a post lower violates the letter of the law.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 11:33:08 AM EDT
I don't know about you other veterans, but when I was in the Army for 7 years I learned one thing. Discipline is defined as doing what you ordered to do, even when you know you won't get caught. I don't want some punk who decides he can break the law if he wants to serving in our military.
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:43:18 PM EDT
DaPhotoGuy, I'm new around here and I mean no disrespect, but I was in the military and remember specifically being told that an illegal/unconstitutional order should be questioned. In fact, we were taught exactly how to refuse to comply. LiveFire
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:55:14 PM EDT
Livefire is right there. But, now that I'm a 2LT, you must obey all orders or face the consequences! (evil laugh)Hahahaha! The good thing is, in my opinion, this will all be moot in a little over a year[:D]
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 12:56:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: I don't know about you other veterans, but when I was in the Army for 7 years I learned one thing. Discipline is defined as doing what you ordered to do, even when you know you won't get caught. I don't want some punk who decides he can break the law if he wants to serving in our military.
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What Army? The German Army!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:20:19 PM EDT
The real crime is when they try to sell their post ban 30 rd mags and preban uppers on postban lowers at........PREBAN PRICES!!!!
Link Posted: 5/30/2003 1:32:26 PM EDT
There is a guy at my club that has a tele-stock on his 20inch postban. He just stays down on his end of the range and minds his own business. I think law enforcement have bigger fish to fry.People break laws all the time, They smoke dope people used to drink during prohibition and im sure you all obey the speed limit 100% of the time.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 1:16:02 AM EDT
WRT Civil Disobedience, the tree huggers or civil rights or Ghandhi know what the penalties are for the laws being broken. If he in fact has determined that he is willing to take the consequences, that's OK. If he has not, and if he does want to be a marine, that seems to be the logical conclusion, then he isn't being civil disobedient, he's being dumb. Anybody that breaks a law thinking they can get away with it is a criminal. You know like the idiots that run red lights thinking they can get away with it. Hopefully a ticket breaks the habit and not an 18 wheeler. The kid is looking at an 18 wheeler.
Link Posted: 5/31/2003 4:12:30 AM EDT
The biggest problem this kid faces is that he will piss off some rat that knows what he is doing. One call to the right (or wrong, as you see it) agency will equal a lifelong headache.
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