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Posted: 5/27/2003 10:25:29 AM EDT
A good friend of mine was told by a hunting pal of his to get an AR for his 11 year old to hunt dear with. I don't hunt, but he has come to me with questions so I'm passing them on here. Are there 5 round mags available? I would think he'd be better off with a Remington 700, but he seems intent on an AR with flat top. I'd love him to get an AR because he's one of those hard core bolt gun and bow hunters who don't see any reason to own an AR. This may a chance to convert him! Any tips, recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Maybe I'll finally get him to go shooting.

Thanks
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 10:43:49 AM EDT
If .223 is legal for the area and game, Why Not? Pros would very low recoil, fast follow up shots. Be able to pick your barrel twist for the correct bullet weight and swap to meet demands. Very accurate rifles, the low recoil would increase shooter confidence in makeing that all important first shot. If it is a preban with the collipsable stock then it could be adjust for correct length. Ammo is affordable for lots of practice again building shooters accuracy and confidence again. Both the Rem 700 and Model 7 are offered in 223 Rem with the shorter youth stocks. Cons would be low energy of the 223 compared to bigger diameter and recoiling calibers. Why not a 7.62x39 upper? Yes there are 5 round mags avaible. Look in the shooters forum. (I haven't started my own search yet). My youngest son can't wait to go deer hunting for his first year this fall. However have a caliber limit where we be hunting so I'm looking at my SKS (7.62x39)with issued short stock and mounted 4x scope. He also likes my preban CAR-15. Hopefully my oldest son would be able to take leave for the three of us to hunting together. Good luck to your friend and son, De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 11:06:13 AM EDT
"Cons would be low energy of the 223 compared to bigger diameter and recoiling calibers. Why not a 7.62x39 upper?" Forgive me, I'm new to this. I just picked up my new Armalite M15A2 yesterday. Do I read this right that you can put a 7.62x39 upper on a .223 lower?
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 1:49:19 PM EDT
I think ther are better calibers like 3006. Fast follow up shots. My god! Make the first one count and use the proper caliber and you wont have any problems. GG
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 2:06:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M15A22003: Do I read this right that you can put a 7.62x39 upper on a .223 lower?
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Yep. You will need to find some of the AR 7.62x39 magazines (most of which suck - see the info in the Magazine Forum). You can use standard AR-15 magazines to feed up to 7 rounds (don't put any more than 7 in the magazine regardless of its 5.56 capacity or it won't feed properly).
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 2:09:53 PM EDT
A Bushmaster Lightweight with Winchester 64gr Power Point Plus should do the job just fine he can place the round correctly. Bushmaster (www.bushmaster.com) sells 5 round hunting magazines. If you're looking for larger calibers for deer hunting you could get uppers in 7.62x39 or 6mmx45 (Oly & Kurts Kustom make uppers in this caliber). There are larger caliber uppers, but the recoil would probably be intimidating for an 11 year old.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 2:35:47 PM EDT
This sounds too easy. Slap a new upper on and get some new mags and you have a new gun? Sounds like swapping Thompson Contender barrels. Are there any good 7.62.39 magazines for this purpose? I'm headed over to the mag forum now. Thanks for the info.
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By M15A22003: Do I read this right that you can put a 7.62x39 upper on a .223 lower?
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Yep. You will need to find some of the AR 7.62x39 magazines (most of which suck - see the info in the Magazine Forum). You can use standard AR-15 magazines to feed up to 7 rounds (don't put any more than 7 in the magazine regardless of its 5.56 capacity or it won't feed properly).
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Link Posted: 5/27/2003 5:42:30 PM EDT
A .223 will kill a deer. So will a .38 Special pistol, a .22 short, or a ball-peen hammer. It's hitting them right that counts. I hunted with my Mini-14 for a few years, and brought home the venison every year. Sometimes it worked well, with lightning-quick kills, other times if I didn't hit them well, it was a failure. That being said, the .223 / 5.56mm is not a good deer cartridge. It's too small, too light, and too fast. It can hit a rib, explode, and cause a nasty surface wound that can take hours or days to kill. Hit one too far back - not in the head/spine, heart/lungs, it can run for miles, hide out in the brush, and die a slow & painful death. Is that how he wants his 11-year-old son to remember his first hunt?
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:06:43 PM EDT
Like I said, I don't hunt. He does. He's been using a bow for several years. Is a bow humane? I don't have a clue. But, he wants to have his boy use a .223, and I suppose he's going to do it whether I agree or not. It's not my place as a non-hunter to give advise to a grown man who's been hunting all his life. I don't disagree with your post, I just want to impress on you that this has nothing to do with me, except that he asked me as an AR owner of the availability of 5 round mags, and also he wants to check out the different optics I have on my guns. I'll pass on the info I have and hope he gives me some of the venison jerky that he makes. By the way, if I did hunt, I would use a 30.06 0r 7mm. I'd feel bad if it wasn't a clean kill. But I buy my meat and don't have the desire to kill it. Now, if was legal to blast the javalina that raid my garbage now and then I'd supply the whole neighborhood with wild bacon. Alas, garbage scrounging pig-like animals are protected by Arizona law.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:17:54 PM EDT
My dad hunted mule deer for 30 years with a .222 rem and that is the gun I started hunting with. I never had any tramatic experiences. Killed many deer with that rifle. It was adequate for the job. Of course with any caliber you should alway make sure your going to make a clean shot. A .223 with 63-64 gr SPs would be even better.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:20:12 PM EDT
az_larry, Rest assured a .223 AR15 will kill a deer dead. I know, I have done it. Like others have said, shot placement is EVERYTHING. Maybe the point your friend is trying to make is having a young hunter learn when to shoot and when not to shoot. Look at my sign-on name, that should tell you I am a bow hunter, and when I use my AR15, as when I use my bow, either I get a good, solid shot, or the animal walks and "wins" for the time being. Last season, my son, age 7, was in the stand with me when I took a spike buck at about 100 yards or so with a Bushmaster Mossy Oak rifle. I used handloaded Speer 70gr semi-spitzers and the buck went about 70 yards and dropped dead. No exit, massive internal damage. I tell ya guys, as far as my son was concerned at that time DAD RULED THE ROOST. I would not trade that memory for nothing in the world. Encourage the AR15 use for hunting so long as discipline is used.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:40:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2003 6:47:41 PM EDT by Hokie]
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: I think ther are better calibers like 3006. Fast follow up shots. My god! Make the first one count and use the proper caliber and you wont have any problems. GG
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That has to be the most well-educated response I've read tonight. Of course you can kill a 200+ pound deer with a 223. Why would you though? Other than stomping through the woods playing GI Joe, I don't see the reasoning behind using an AR15, when you could use a better DEER caliber. This topic gets beaten to death[beathorse], and occasionally someone like Gun Guru strolls by and flips on the light switch for everyone. Four things are clear re: 223 and deer 1) Depending on where you live, deer are different sizes, so a 223 round is better suited in southern Florida, but not in northern Maine. 2) Unless you're a crackshot, don't bother, if the deer hobbles off and dies where you won't find it, congrats you're a complete asshole. 3) If you have to post here to find out whether or not a 223 round is in fact suitable for deer, you probably shouldn't be hunting at all. 4) If you're debating the effects of the 223's effect on a deer, you evidently haven't misplaced a shot and chased a bleeding buck for 3 hours in the dark. It sucks. All you AR15 Deerslayers out there can try and flame me, but you're the minority, and you're still wrong. Cheers [beer]
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:04:41 PM EDT
Hokie, I believe that like any sport, hunting with a certain cal allows a person to achieve a sense of accomplishment. As does the mechanism of the kill...bow, handgun, rifle, black powder, etc. If not, we all would use the same thing...now what fun would that be? I agree, for MOST folks a standard cal such as 30.06 or .308 allows for error in shot placement. Is az's friends son a beginner? I don't know. If he is...I agree with you, should not use a .223 Your comments on #1 I agree Your comments on #2 I don't agree, crack shot...no...patient and disclipined...yes...thats where a sense of accomplishment comes in Your comments on #3 az did not ask if a .223 was a good deer cal...he just wanted to know about a 5 round mag (I think) Your commenst on #4 well never assume what another hunter has or has not done. I agree, searching does SUCK...all hunters should remember this BEFORE pulling the trigger or letting loose an arrow GOOD LUCK TO ALL AND GOOD HUNTING
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:09:19 PM EDT
Well said.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 8:36:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Hokie, IYour comments on #3 az did not ask if a .223 was a good deer cal...he just wanted to know about a 5 round mag (I think)
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Correct! Like a lot of posts this one degenerated into is .223 a good hunting round, or converting an AR to shoot 7.65, All I wanted to know was if my friend who is going to do whatever the hell he wants, can get a 5 round mag. Anyway, thanks for the info I asked for, and as for the rest, if you want to argue about hunting with ARs(something I could care less about) or how to change AR uppers to other calibers, please start your own threads. Good Night!
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:39:33 PM EDT
Why not go for an AR-10T? you can have one in .243 or 308. They are a bit expensive. I am considering an AR10 for my next hunting rifle. If Anyone has input on that Id like to hear it. I currently shoot a Browning A-bolt in 3006 and it works just great but... I also have Cerebral paulsy which makes shooting offhand accuatly difficult at best. Because it affects my left side And its hard to grip the foregrip. So I was tinking of getting a AR10T in 308 And puting on a RIS so that I could use a vertical foregrip that would be easyer to hold onto. I also use a bipod and that works well.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:42:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2003 9:43:22 PM EDT by MarineNP]
I don't use my AR15s for deer hunting down here in Texas but I do use my AR10T .308. In fact, I took down a nice 8 point this past deer season [:D]. Although the AR15 is a great varmint hunting rifle.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 9:49:19 PM EDT
Dude I wouldnt try to kill a deer with a .223. Anyway I think its illegal in my county. He should probably get him a Mauser or a Garnand. My little bro (12) hunts with a Czech M48. Little kids can take the recoil with np if someone shows them how to use it.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 12:39:36 AM EDT
if you place it right, .223 works fine for Bambi. double-check your local game laws, NV doesn't have a 5 rd restriction.. AZ might not either... many people just ass-u-me the 5 rd limit. .223 too small? there's always .50AE, .458 SOCOM & .50 Beowulf! 5 rd mags are available if needed.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:22:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 2:26:53 AM EDT by Hokie]
Originally Posted By az_larry:
Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Hokie, IYour comments on #3 az did not ask if a .223 was a good deer cal...he just wanted to know about a 5 round mag (I think)
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Correct! Like a lot of posts this one degenerated into is .223 a good hunting round, or converting an AR to shoot 7.65, All I wanted to know was if my friend who is going to do whatever the hell he wants, can get a 5 round mag. Anyway, thanks for the info I asked for, and as for the rest, if you want to argue about hunting with ARs(something I could care less about) or how to change AR uppers to other calibers, please start your own threads. Good Night!
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lol consider this thread hijacked! You should know better anyway being a team member... If you mention "AR" and "Hunting" in the same topic, the planet assumes you're planning to gun down Bambi... It's your own fault really.[;)]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:27:48 AM EDT
[url]http://www.remington.com/firearms/youth/m7youth.htm[/url] Remington Model 7 Youth makes much more sense. [img]http://www.remington.com/images/firearms/7youth.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:28:06 AM EDT
223 would do just fine, with the proper load that is. Also he will get more enjoyment out of season with it.. I sure wish my dad would have bought me a AR when I was growing up.. Boy would it be worth something today.... Another thing is it would make a really good turkey, varmit, or hog gun. My Uncle reloads his 223 bolt action with light loads for turkey and its had its fair share of turkeys.. Just my opinion Prosise
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 2:48:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 2:49:48 AM EDT by Combat_Diver]
Larry, Correct! Like a lot of posts this one degenerated into is .223 a good hunting round, or converting an AR to shoot 7.65, All I wanted to know was if my friend who is going to do whatever the hell he wants, can get a 5 round mag. Anyway, thanks for the info I asked for, and as for the rest, if you want to argue about hunting with ARs(something I could care less about) or how to change AR uppers to other calibers, please start your own threads. Good Night! What about your statement-"Any tips, recommendations would be greatly appreciated." To GG- Do you only hunt with single shot firearmes? My comment on fast follow up shots is do to the lack of recoil, acknowlegement of the small amount of power of the 5.56. As stated "low recoil would increase shooter confidence in makeing that all important first shot". I've help track deer for others who have had poor shot placement with 30-30 and 20ga slug and lost the deer. I was not avigating spray and pray but an understanding of the shooter and cartridge limitations. De Oppresso Liber
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:47:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 3:49:17 AM EDT by wolfj2]
Here's my opinion. . . . Young people should learn to shoot with a bolt gun. This will not only save on dad's pocket book when it comes time to buy ammo. . .but it will also teach good shot placement and patience. Lumpy's suggested rifle (Remington model 7)is a great way to get started.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 8:48:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 8:49:32 AM EDT by gootmacher]
I have a uncle that uses .223 every year and always brings home a deer. he does use a bolt gun though, he is old and killed almost everything that is hunted, he said as long as you wait for the right shot(which is heart-lung or head).223 is great for deer. he said it doesnt mess up as much meat as a large caliber rifle does. he laughs at the yoyo hunter who go out with a 300 winmag and blow a 2 foot hole in a 200 pound deer. i ask him about hunting with my 20" AR, he said it should be fine as long as i wait for the right shot. i might hunt with it this year but my PSS might get offended. oh yeah, you can get 5 round mags from bushmaster.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:03:42 AM EDT
I've hunted deer with my 16 inch carbine for years, never lost one. But I have helped friends, who hunt with 30-30 and 30-36 rifles, follow blood trails for hours. Use what works for you and dont worry about what others think. When using .223 for deer I like either Winchester Power Point Plus, or Remington Trophy Bonded Bear Claw ammo. Both work equally well.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 12:15:15 PM EDT
I would steer clear of an AR in .223 to hunt deer with. It is too small of a round to reliably take them down. It might work out well for an experinced hunter who has good self control and excellent bullet placment. However I don't think that an 11yr. old would be very effective with an AR vs. a more traditional deer rifle.
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