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Posted: 5/23/2003 6:08:18 AM EDT
See sig line.

I'm wondering what ya'all think about the importance of a RAS/ARMS SIR-type system on a survival gun.

When I think of "survival gun", I'm thinking:

1. Lightweight
2. Manueverability
3. Concealment
4. Escape/evade is primary concern, so a weapon-mounted light is probably not needed, as it would give away your posistion, and you are not searching for enemies in most survival circumstances. No need for lasers either.

Granted, if I had all the money I wanted, I would probably go with a RAS II and perhaps mount nothing to it; forward grips are great, but do hamper concealment and weight factors.

And the forward grip is about all I'm interested in, so $350+ for a RAS setup has me wondering if this is all that necessary when the SHTF. Is free floating worth that?

Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:33:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 6:34:10 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Hey, you don't NEED any of that stuff. In fact from your requirements it sounds like all you NEED is a .22 pistol. [;)] Seriously though, if all you want is a vertical fore grip why not just get a AAC rail and foregrip combo? AAC sells a short or full length rail that will fit on the m4 or standard carbine handguards. They also sell a nice foregrip that's just as good as the Knights for about half the price. If you are looking for the modularity and ability to add stuff and setup your AR in different configurations then yes the RAS/RIS/SIR are worth the money. I also believe that with the recent price drops there is very little cost difference between the free float and non-free floated rail/handguard products so why not get a free floated one... Again all this gear and how you setup your rifle is basically all user preference. Just get what you like and what works best for you. Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:47:15 AM EDT
Big thing for me is the free-float plus lightwieght barrel combo. Not to increase precision, but to maintain accuracy-- no fear of adjusting POI by taking an improvised rest, or adding and removing accessories from the forend.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:59:47 PM EDT
You dont *need* any of that, but the point is this. If you can have more ammo, [b]take it[/b]. If you can get something to hep you shoot faster, [b]get it[/b]. If you can increase the performance, [b]do it[/b]. None of that is crucially necessary to the weapon, but the free float systems we're talking about do nothing to hurt while increasing max performance levels. Simple as that.
Originally Posted By Feedingcannibal: Granted, if I had all the money I wanted, I would probably go with a RAS II...
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In other words, if you had the money to buy RAS II you would have it and you'd be happy instead of trying to convince yourself it isnt necessary? Like I said above.. it isnt necessary. Heck, an AR15 isnt necessary. But it sure does help. The accessory rail/FF systems are much the same as that. They are not necessary, but they sure do help.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:34:04 AM EDT
new-arguy, Great response, very good way to look at things. Always enjoy reading your posts. Currently saving up for the RAS II.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:56:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 4:58:54 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Is your primary concern concealability, or employment of the weapon? Personally, MY primary concern with a weapon is ALWAYS -putting rounds on the target, quickly and accurately. All else is secondary. I suppose there's a balance to be struck, but FF tube equals a little more accuracy, and-for me-the foregrip means more maneuverability.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:35:32 AM EDT
For a survival gun I'd also get a Ceiner .22LR adapter kit.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:44:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Is your primary concern concealability, or employment of the weapon? Personally, MY primary concern with a weapon is ALWAYS -putting rounds on the target, quickly and accurately. All else is secondary. I suppose there's a balance to be struck, but FF tube equals a little more accuracy, and-for me-the foregrip means more maneuverability.
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Cinncinnatus, I agree with you - although I believe concealment would be a concern if the S truely HTF, hitting the target should be the first concern. I believe my initial aprehension to investing in the RAS system was what I feel to be some unecessary additions, such as lasers and flashlights. Now before you flame me, particularly about the flashlight, lemme explain: I believe police and military personell need flashlights because they are typically searching for persons rather than trying to escape/evade. If the SHTF, I want the hell away from the bad guys, in [i]most[/i] situations, making the bright flashlight a hinderence. So, at this time, all I can see adding to my RAS rails is a forward grip, which I have used and definately prefer over nothing. I'm not quite sure about the accuracy improvements for free floating the barrel on an M4; if anyone has any info on this, I would certainly appreciate it, as it would help soften the blow to my savings account when I pull out the close to $400 for the RAS II and the forward grip!
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 11:55:53 AM EDT
So, at this time, all I can see adding to my RAS rails is a forward grip, which I have used and definately prefer over nothing. I'm not quite sure about the accuracy improvements for free floating the barrel on an M4; if anyone has any info on this, I would certainly appreciate it, as it would help soften the blow to my savings account when I pull out the close to $400 for the RAS II and the forward grip!
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FWIW, my 20 round groups at 50 yards using Q3131A shrank from approx 2" down to approx 1.5" after I installed a SIR system on my RRA M4. A half inch may not be much but is a welcome improvement nonetheless. My 5 round groups shrank tremendously using premium ammo.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 1:14:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 1:19:35 PM EDT by mrostov]
You 'need' that RAS system like you need a hole in the head. It looks cool, but looking cool isn't a justification for life essential gear. $400?? For not much more than that you can buy an Aimpoint CompM2 with a good mount - something which is about 1.25 million times more useful to you. Seriously, just how much shit do you plan on hanging off of your gun? You're not a JBT kicking in the doors of terrified citizens nor are you an SF operator blowing away the AK toting unwashed of the 3rd World with resupply only one quick prayer into the radio away. You're a survivalist and you need to prioritize your gear like one. This means you have might have need for 2 detachable items on the foregrips your weapon, both of which don't need to be on there all of the time, nor will they probably ever reside on there at the same time. These items are a flashlight mount (usefull for exploring tunnels, caves, dark buildings), and a lightweight bipod (for aid in bushwacking the bushwackers before they bushwack you). The only other thing that you might want is a foreward pistol grip. All of these needs can be met for a small amount of the cost of the RAS system by using the FOBUS handguards with rails on them. If you have excess cash at a later date, by all means indulge yourself. But, you should prioritize on the gear which could save your life. Before you spend the extra money to do the cosmetic upgrade to a RAS I'd get the following: Aimpoint CompM2, NV Goggles, Ceiner .22LR kit, and steel British military mags. --------------------
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:49:34 PM EDT
mrostov, do you sell tinfoil hats on the side as well as offer such wise wisdom as what was spouted above? [wacko]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:00:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz: mrostov, do you sell tinfoil hats on the side as well as offer such wise wisdom as what was spouted above? [wacko]
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KMA dude, so what did I just say in my post that was 'wacko' or deserving of your snide and extremely ignorant 'tin foil hat' comment? My advice was sound. He was asking practical advice from the standpoint of himself as being a survivalist.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:12:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 6:15:28 PM EDT by Feedingcannibal]
mrostov, I understand what yer saying. Perhaps I should be a bit more specific; I currently have an 14.5" chrome lined barrel (1 in 7 for the heavy stuff), ACE stock, flattop upper with a TA01NSN on top with a Killflash, forged lower, MagCinch. Although the money is an issue, I obviously don't have a big problem with dropping cash on good tactical items. I value the opinions here regarding the "necessity" of RAS/SIR systems for a survival AR15 - good discussion here thus far.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 6:42:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 6:44:36 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
There are so many variables into choosing a setup that will work for you. If you are limited to one rifle then you have to figure out what will help you the most for your particular environment. Urban dwellers will have different needs in contrast to a rural inhabitant. If I had to choose between a RAS or extra survival gear (water, food, equipment for hauling all your stuff, etc...), I would choose the gear. IMO I would spend the $400 on some body armor long before I bought a RAS. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:00:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 9:37:48 PM EDT by Prosise]
I'll confess right up front that I am no fast shooting SF wannabe. I am a normal individual. HOWEVER: What we need to realize is [b]"It's not the Arrow, it's the INDIAN!"[/b] Kinda agree with MROSTOV a bit on this one. I find it hard to spend 400$ on a RIS. If you really want to get it thats kewl. But If you are not going to utilize every rail on it its just one of those things thats redundant. You can put a Free floated handguard on your gun for about 25$, goto any gun show and buy an adapter rail from any dealer that sells the RIS for about 20$ a pop & you have a free float handguard with all the rails you need. Personally All i need is one rail on my current Project and that is for a Light. Anything that is making your gun nose heavy will make it harder to acquire targets fast. IMO They do look pretty sweet, I'll agree on that. Prosise
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 7:06:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2003 7:12:05 PM EDT by M4C]
The cost of RAS is %$&*^# [b]obscene[/b]. All the more reason I can and will find better alternatives to suit my survival rifle. There are so many better things to spend large wads--like on Aimpoints, ACOG, etc. and [size=6]AMMO[/size=6]. Mr. Rostov does make good points. BTW, I'm no fan of the vertical foregrip either. You either have a rifle or an SMG--what's it going to be?
Link Posted: 5/29/2003 4:17:10 AM EDT
I'm no fan of the vertical foregrip either. You either have a rifle or an SMG--what's it going to be?
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The Marine Corps is now going with the vertical grip on their 20" M16A4s. Certainly not what one would call "SMG"s. It works. It makes for a very maneuverable rifle, especially in MOUT. Cost is a completely different issue. RAS is a good piece of gear. FF RAS is even better. Aimpoints make for quicker target aquisition. And a surefire certainly comes in handy at night. If you can't spare the cash, that's one thing. But it has nothing to do with whether these items have value.
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