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Posted: 5/17/2003 1:16:32 PM EDT
Went to a gunshow today and ended up with what was marketed as a Colt Pre-Ban. It has all the "evil"features of a pre-ban...Screw on Flash suppressor, Bay lug etc... Problem is, after getting home and double checking the lower doesn't appear to be a pre-ban. It's Marked:

Match Target tm
Match HBAR
CAL. 223
Serial number PMH0030##

I have found notes obviouslt stating that no Match Targets are pre-bans but can't find squat on that serial number. The Serial number doesn't seem to match anything posted pre or post-ban.

If anyone can verify this one way or the other for me It would be greatly appreciated. The Gun dealer should still be at the show tomorrow so I have a chance to shove it up his ass still. :)

Link Posted: 5/17/2003 1:35:09 PM EDT
[url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/ar15serial.html[/url] looks like all the 9 digit SNs are posty.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:17:38 PM EDT
Take it back tomorrow along with the list of serial numbers and show them they sold you an illegal gun.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:39:45 PM EDT
You just received the gun show screw, hopefully you bought it from a reputable dealer that will refund your money, when buying a pre-ban or any Colt AR-15, many things need to be checked including correctly marked bolt, carrier, upper receiver with proof marks, ect.. Good luck with your return. Match223
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 2:43:15 PM EDT
I'm not to worried about getting screwed, he either takes it back or get's a visit from the ATF for seeling an illegal firearm. So I doubt I get to much hassel. Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 6:19:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Falcatta: I'm not to worried about getting screwed, he either takes it back or get's a visit from the ATF for seeling an illegal firearm. So I doubt I get to much hassel. Thanks for the help.
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The problem is, if he gets a visit from ATF, so do you; and there goes your rifle. Of course you can always sue the dealer to recover the cost; and pay 5 times more in attorney fees than the amount you lost on the gun. I truly hope, for your sake, that he takes it back. To be an honest person trying to comply with what is without a doubt one of the most stupid laws on the books, can get to be a very insane situation. Good luck [:D] Let us know how it turns out.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:11:22 PM EDT
I find it very hard to believe that they I would get screwed in this deal no matter what happened. Canceling a Visa charge is a beautifull thing. :)
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:25:17 PM EDT
you would not have to worry about attorney fees because you can sue him in small claims court where no attorney is allowed
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:38:13 PM EDT
I have never seen the P in front of the MH. I was looking hard at buying a pre or post ban for my first ar and did lots of studying. The MH0030 numbere would be a pre-ban number but that P in front of it makes me wonder whats up. If you call Colt they will tell you if it is a pre ban or not. I'm sure the problem is that the gun show leaves town after sunday. I found at least a half a dozen sites listing numbers of pre and post ban Colts but again I have never seen the P. Be careful if you go to return it tomorrow. I'm sure the guy who is selling it has some kind of story waiting and ready. Something like it was a special patrol model or police model something with a P in it. I hope you get it resolved.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 7:58:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2003 8:02:42 PM EDT by Falcatta]
whywork40 I thought the same thing but I think it's an established fact that the Match Target series came out after 94. Here is the clincher, it has small take down pins. I didn't think about it at the time, once I got it home and started cleaning it (also noticing it had a purple, bushmaster upper). That got me checking. I think it's also established that Colt didn't use small take downs on their lowers till after 94. I could be wrong but it got me checking serial numbers anway.
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 8:15:11 PM EDT
[peep]
Link Posted: 5/17/2003 11:08:45 PM EDT
There were some preban Sporter and AR15A2 Gov't Carbines, etc, made with the small GI size front pivot pin in 1993/1994, so that is not a definite sign it is post ban. However, it does appear to be a post ban lower receiver. If it said "Sporter" and Match HBAR, it would be preban, but being Match Target/Match HBAR, according to my sources (Colt LE Armorer materials, etc.) it is a postban lower receiver. The dealer should be happy to refund your money rather than risk drawing attention to himself for selling an illegal post-ban assault weapon, I would think... hope this helps, John
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 8:48:11 AM EDT
Update Well I know I was suprised by this and I'm sure you will be to. It is a preban. I took off the gunshow today with my Internet gleened inconclusive proof under one arm and the colt under the other. I had a nice conversation with the Seller about the issue and he said that he didn't have his book with him that showed the Serial number as preban. He left his table and he and I went in search of this book at the Book vendor's tables. The book is a small paperback about colt firearms and in the back they do have listed all the pre and post ban serial numbers. PMH003255 (IIRC) is the cut off for Match Targets that are preban of which mine falls under. So some low down on the rifle: Lower reciever: Marked Match Targettm Match HBAR CAL. 223 SER PHM0030## Small take down and Pivot Pins A2 Style with full stock Barrel: Marked C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 Government Profile 20" threaded with A2 Flash suppressor and Bayonet lug Upper: Upper reciever housing has a purpleish tint as does the Gas tube ring Bolt Carrier: Marked with a "C" Bolt: Marked "MPC" So there you have it in a nutshell. Now I need to find a copy of that book as I didn't have any cash on me :) Thanks
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:53:58 AM EDT
I should have gone with you Falcatta... I had some cash on me and would have bought the book. Oh well, at least it's cleared up now. Alex
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 1:13:48 PM EDT
Get that book- and carry it with you at the range. It might be your get-out-of-jail card (until the sunset).
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 1:45:54 PM EDT
I'd call Colt first thing Monday morning. From Imapct Guns-
Colt - Colt's Manufacturing P.O. Box 1868 Hartford, CT 06144 (203)-236-6311 "Randy" All "Match Target" rifles are Post-ban.
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Link Posted: 5/18/2003 2:02:29 PM EDT
Yeah I saw that on their sight as well and I think that is in refference to anything with a MT00#### serial number which are definitly postban rifles. I had intended to use that as part of my documented ammunition against him. The problem is I can't find a single refference to the PMH00#### serial numbers anywhere on the net and going by Colt's serial number/Model number designation it isn't considered a Match Target but a Match HBAR. The Lower seems to be a oddball that had a limited run towards the end. Even in the book they show that there are only a little over 3000 rifles in that serial number range that are pre-bans. It's a tough thing to compare a published refference to a list on the internet with disclaimers on their accuracy. Although Impact Guns doesn't have that the rest of the Serial number lists do. It's entirely possible that the published refference is wrong, it's equally possible that this is a odd ball lot that Colt put out before the "Match Target" line really came out and so few exist that have been seen. I'll research it more of course but I'm less worried about it then before. Thanks
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 2:04:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XM777: I'd call Colt first thing Monday morning. From Imapct Guns-
Colt - Colt's Manufacturing P.O. Box 1868 Hartford, CT 06144 (203)-236-6311 "Randy" All "Match Target" rifles are Post-ban.
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Ditto. In fact, I would suggest paying Colt $50 to get a letter stating that it's preban.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 2:12:44 PM EDT
Wait, wait, wait. I must be confused. I just re-read all the post and some bells and flashing lights went off. Your lower is stamped: Match Target Match HBAR Match Targets carry the serial number prefix "MT" while Match HBARs (model 6601) carry the prefix of "MH". You are correct in saying that no Match Targets (MT) are preban but your serial number begins with MH so you don't have to worry about the Match Taget thingy. In addition, your MH0030## serial number is far below the MH086020 cut off so it looks like you are in the clear. However, it still would not hurt to call Colt and see about getting letter.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 2:36:45 PM EDT
Interesting the mention of the upper being purplish. A years ago I'd have speculatrd that the upper wasn't a Colt, but personal experience has taught me better. About six montha ago I picked up a complete M16A1 surplus upper at a show, to use as part of my project to build civilian versions of all the M16 series used by the military over the years. The upper had been painted black but the barrel and bolt carrier looked essentially new, so I took chance on what was under the paint. Sure enough, when I got the thing home and got the paint off the finish on the upper was 99%---but it had "Bushmaster" type color on it. Never seen a Colt before in that shade[:D] Happy that the deal worked out OK for you. Enjoy the new toy.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:16:37 PM EDT
The serial number isn't MH###### it's PMH003### From what I have read thus far the Government Type that came out after the Sporters did have the Bayo lug. I also just read that a "Match Target HBAR" came after the Government Type and had the same features with the addition of the HBAR. It's a great little mystery if nothing else and I may indeed end up paying the $50 dollars to Colt. I'll be the first to admit if I hadn't seen this in black and white when I went to take the Rifle back today I wouldn't have believed it myself. I just wish I had had the cash and the forsight to buy the book on the spot. All gun show vendors need to take credit cards. lol
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:39:17 PM EDT
No Problem. I asked for the Colt people to respond for that reason. :) The odd thing about this Lower is that serial number...what does the P in PMH stand for and why isn't it listed in any of the pre/post-ban lists anywhere. As I stated before the pre-ban range for that serial number stopped at PMH003255 so it would have had to have been made in the early 90's if that book is to be believed. Now I just need to find that book. It was a Colt only AR-15 guide and the dealer had a bunch of them but I'm struggling to find it online for sale.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:59:09 PM EDT
the P stands for pretty, shoot the hell out of it.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:36:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 5:37:01 PM EDT by dcobra23]
I had an spat with a local gun shop owner selling a PMH serial numbered rifle as a pre ban Colt. He swore up and down it was pre ban. I dialed Colt customer service right in his store from my cell phone and busted his ass bigger than shit. To find out the rifle was on consignment [so he said] and the shop owner split the receivers and called the gun owner and told him to come and get his parts. It ended up the gun owner gave me 25% off a caes of XM193[buttering me up]. Cheap bastard is lucky I wasn't BATF!
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:42:42 PM EDT
Hmmm... I wish you remembered what the serial number was. Anyway looks like a call to Colt is on the Agenda for tomorrow. If that book is inaccurate I wonder how many other dealers are relying on it to sell pre-bans.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:50:10 PM EDT
Please update us when you get the word from Colt -- thanks much!! John
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:37:11 AM EDT
Dude, I am sorry to say, you got screwed. The dealer BSed you real good. All Colts with three letters in the beginning of the serial number are postban. That is exactly what you will hear from Colt when you call them.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 3:53:36 AM EDT
Raptor22 the gun maybe postban but I don't think the dealer was neccessarily dishonest. When you see the serial number in a Colt AR15 book from a different vendor's table and the Serial number is listed in the back of it as preban I can see where the mistake was made. You have to think about it. If you had this rifle and that book in front of you you might make the same call as a dealer. Whatever the case may be, I'll find out through Colt customer Service today. Sure it's gonna be a pain in the ass if it's a postban but the bigger question is how many dealers use that book as a refference to determine prebans. Anyway at least I'll find out what PMH stands for. lol
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 6:39:06 AM EDT
Well a Sad turn of events to say the least. Colt verified that the Lower was indeed made in 1995. So be aware that there is a Colt Specific AR-15 (not made by Colt)book in circulation that has a Glaring misprint in the serial number section. This I have seen first hand. Now to getting it straightened out. Thanks for all the help.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:01:47 AM EDT
Damn Falcatta, sorry to hear that [:(] Was the dealer that sold it to you (at the show) local, can you take it back? I hope you can settle this with them, good luck bro!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:49:50 AM EDT
Yeah the dealer is in the state. As I said before I saw the book that he was using to refference the numbers and even saw that serial number range listed as pre-ban so I believe this to be an honest mistake that he will correct. In the event that it turns ugly there is always the Cancel the credit card charge/call the ATF option but that is a worst case scenario solution and I doubt it would come to that. He had a few other Colt pre-bans at his table so with a little preemptive serial number checking I could see him just doing a swap. IIRC they were all Sporters or Gov. lowers.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:03:00 AM EDT
If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for this rifle?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:58:37 AM EDT
Sorry to hear that, brother. Here's hoping that everthing turns out well.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:34:23 PM EDT
Well...... I got the Dealer on the phone and he stands by his story that the Lower must be pre-ban cause it's in that book regardless of what Colt says but he is going to swap me out Lowers anyway at the gunshow this weekend in Hampton. Hampton is a hell of a lot closer then where he is. lol And yes I will have the pre-ban list under my arm when I go to see him. :) So someone update that Serial number list and mention by name that PMH###### are post bans PLEASE!!!!! Thanks again for all the help.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:52:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 4:54:06 PM EDT by Phil_in_Seattle]
Originally Posted By Falcatta: Well...... I got the Dealer on the phone and he stands by his story that the Lower must be pre-ban cause it's in that book regardless of what Colt says [red]but he is going to swap me out Lowers[/red] anyway at the gunshow this weekend in Hampton. Hampton is a hell of a lot closer then where he is. lol And yes I will have the pre-ban list under my arm when I go to see him. :) So someone update that Serial number list and mention by name that PMH###### are post bans PLEASE!!!!! Thanks again for all the help.
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and he'll be refunding you some money I hope!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:06:33 PM EDT
Actually it was a pretty decent deal for a Colt AR15 so I'm less concerned with that and more concerned with getting the complete pre-ban for what I paid.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:29:02 PM EDT
Another fine point that I forgot to mention is that Match HBars do not come with government profile barrels. They come with HBar barrels. I have never seen a purplish black Colt upper. Is it a flattop or an A2?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:36:29 PM EDT
I, for one, would not be satisfied with a parts gun when I paid for a complete factory rifle. Sure, most anybody can put an upper and a lower together and it'll work, but there are some rather involved ATF rules about 'manufacturing an assault weapon' even with a pre-ban lower, if the lower was never assembled as a complete rifle before the ban. In other words, according to what I have read, just having a pre-ban lower does not automatically give you the right to assemble a rifle on it in pre-ban configuration. You could still have an illegal rifle after all that trouble. BTW, the show at the Hampton Coliseum is a fabulous show, for around here. If it rains again Sunday I just may slip down there. Let's see - change the oil in the old lady's car or go to a great gun show? Hmmm...
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1saxman: I, for one, would not be satisfied with a parts gun when I paid for a complete factory rifle. Sure, most anybody can put an upper and a lower together and it'll work, but there are some rather involved ATF rules about 'manufacturing an assault weapon' even with a pre-ban lower, if the lower was never assembled as a complete rifle before the ban. In other words, according to what I have read, just having a pre-ban lower does not automatically give you the right to assemble a rifle on it in pre-ban configuration. You could still have an illegal rifle after all that trouble. BTW, the show at the Hampton Coliseum is a fabulous show, for around here. If it rains again Sunday I just may slip down there. Let's see - change the oil in the old lady's car or go to a great gun show? Hmmm...
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All Colt prebans left the factory as complete rifles. Colt did not begin selling lowers until after the AWB.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:23:33 PM EDT
Raptor22 I agree it couldn't have been, that was part of why I came here in the first place and started checking up on it. It's a standard A2. This is going to be my Project Rifle so that's gonna get replaced anyway with an A3 upper housing. I'm keeping the barrel caue I wanted a Gov profile anyway. 1saxman as long as the Lower was a complete rifle before the AWB you can do what you want with it. To be honest I don't care about having all the matching stuff hence my soon to follow A3 conversion. It has the colt bolt, carrier and barrel and that's all I'm woried about. The dealer kills me though he was gonna mail me a replacment lower. Not send one to another dealer for transfer but send me one in the mail. lol I just want this over with as soon as physicaly possible. :) I worry about the gun industry when dealers like that exist. Nice enough guy but doesn't seem to know the law. Oh well.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:55:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Falcatta: The dealer kills me though he was gonna mail me a replacment lower. Not send one to another dealer for transfer but send me one in the mail. lol I just want this over with as soon as physicaly possible. :) I worry about the gun industry when dealers like that exist. Nice enough guy but doesn't seem to know the law. Oh well.
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Guys like this worry me. Hopefully you will be doing a face to face exchange in Hampton. Good luck and I hope that he makes good on this for you. I see this all the time. I once saw an illegally configured Bushmaster being sold as a preban, IIRC, with a serial number of 212XXX. When I pointed this out, I was told that I did not know what I was talking about. When I told him what the serial number cutoff was, he told me to get lost. It was obvious that he was out to screw someone for $2400.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:35:35 PM EDT
The more I thought about this the more I remembered having one so I went thru my gun purchase receipts and found it. Bought thru CDNN, on 4-5-96 Colt AR15 Match H-Bar, serial # PMH0035xx, (I don't recall if it was a Sporter or Match Target). New complete Colt lower, $269.88 I bought it thru an ad in the Shotgun News When I saw the serial # I figured they stamped the P to designate it as a Post Ban receiver (it was the first & last rifle I had seen with that prefix). They had been selling them since 1995 and they went on sale, if my memory is correct. Match223
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:09:26 AM EDT
I found this funny to Colt says their Alpha serial number headers don't stand for anything. Bull Shit Sporters are SP Math HBAR's are MH Govs are GC Match Targets are MT lol
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:40:53 AM EDT
Sporters definitely do not have SP S/N prefixes.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 1:55:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2003 1:57:13 PM EDT by Falcatta]
Ok Closure at last wooohooo!!!! Went to the Hampton Gun show and gave back the Felony. Guy gave me my money back in Cash. :) What was truly hilarious was entering the coliseum. The 2 cops/security guards at the door had an issue with me beucase I had the rifle apart making it difficult to put the little plastic tie through an open bolt. The conversation went something like this. Sir you are gonna have to assemble the rifle. I can't it's a postban lower with a preban upper, it's a felony. Sir you are gonna have to assemble the rifle so I can put the tie on it. if I do it's a felony so no. You have to assemble the rifle. No!! It's a felony. You have to assemble the rifle. No!! It's a felony. What's the problem here. He doesn't want to assemble his rifle. Why? It's a felony!!!! lol Anyway I did pick up another Colt, a Sporter Light Weight in 7.62 and got a sweeeet deal on the Gov profile upper I wanted in A3 so all is well. I also managed to pick up the book that this guy is using to judge pre/postban serial numbers. It's: The AR-15 Complete Guide by Walter Kuleck and Scott Duff Sure enough in the back they say they verified that PMH003250 is the cut off for preban. Obviously Colt feels differently. lol AT LAST IT'S OVER MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! thanks for all the help Jeff
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 2:48:28 PM EDT
Glad to hear everything worked out. You might want to IM Walter Kuleck and relate your story and bring this error to his attention. He's a member here, and Mod in the Fulton Armory forum, "Ordinary_Guy".
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 9:54:40 PM EDT
Thanks for keeping us posted -- and glad you got your deal straightened out!! Now, next time you see that dealer, just for the heck of it --- look on his table and see if you see that lower attached to a preban upper, will ya? Not that I'm a suspicious person by nature, or anything, but.......... [:D] John
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:36:53 PM EDT
I told him to buy from the guy I got mine from, but NOOOO he has to get a felony gun and drag me to another gun show before he'll see my gun dealer and buy a REAL preban. ;) J/K Falcatta. Alex
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 6:20:44 AM EDT
lol and who gave you the number to that gun dealer? Well as much as I wanted to save some cash that did prove true and Dick did end up saving me some money in the long run. So yes Alfex_F you were right. ;P Live and learn
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