Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 5/14/2003 4:08:41 PM EDT
Does it's OAL allow it to be loaded into AR magazines? What type of bullet? Is it actually beyond a testing phase? Any info or links would be greatly appreciated. I've read that the bullet's length, despite lower muzzle velocities, makes it more apt to fragment at extended ranges. It's so long that the bullet cannot withstand the forces against it as it begins to tumble base-forward.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 4:26:04 PM EDT
You will find lots of info on Ammunition section.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:20:45 PM EDT
I believe that the bullet you're refering to is the 77gr. Sierra MatchKing. It is a length tolerant bullet, originally designed to increase the performance of the .223 (5.56 NATO) cartridge using a 2.26" OAL - magazine length. It normally requires a 1/8 twist or slower barrel twist to perform to its potential. The intended use at first was in NRA/CMP Service Rifle competition, to improve on the performance of the 69gr. SMK bullet which was used in the previous 300yd. load. It is available in factory loaded Match cartridges from Federal and Black Hills. It stands to reason that since this bullet has been very sucessfully used by our service Marksmanship Units for a few years, that it wouldnt be long before the SpecOps and other military units would notice it in their search for improved long-range terminal performance as highlighted in Afganistan and Iraq. There is now an official military cartridge using this bullet. I'm not sure that I remember the designation correctly, but I think that its MK262 Mod0 for the non-cannelured type, and MK262 Mod1 for the ammo with the cannelured bullet. I have no idea on the terminal bullet performance in combat, but I do have the word from people that have recently returned from Iraq that the military (SOCOM in particular) are pleased with the results. They all say that it's doing the job that they intended it to do! HTH
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:43:41 PM EDT
The 77grn bullet is being used in Iraq and the Afghan to increase the knock-down and penetration power of the various M-16 weapons in use. Especially to give more punch to those weapons with shorter barrels and the corresponding decrease in velocity.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:51:25 PM EDT
The newest version military 77 gr bullet is actually a Nosler with cannelure. FWIW, Georgia Precision will be selling a batch of this ammo that was acquired from Black Hills through a group buy. Not sure how much, if any is left, but you might want to get some of it. A complete test report with pics is available in the ammo forum.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 11:53:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 6:38:02 AM EDT
Troy, Although there is a 77gr. Nosler bullet with a cannelure, Sierra has also manufactured a special run of the 77gr. MatchKing bullets with cannelure which are available to the public (as an overrun) through (I think) Mid South. The information is available in your own AR Discussions forum, and contains a clarification on the subject by John Feamster. You give the impression on your above post that the only cannelured 77gr. .224 cal. bullet is a Nosler. At least that's how I read it! If you made an honest mistake it's quite understandable considering the amount of information that you must absorb to try and stay on top of this. If, on the other hand, this is an attempt to hawk a "special run" of Black Hills ammo for ar15.com it just appears as a cheesy move to make money for the site. I sincerely hope that this not true. The shooter can purchase 77gr. Black Hills ammo loaded with the Sierra MK (not cannelured) direct from the CMP, as well as other vendors. He can also purchase 77gr. Federal GMM ammo loaded with the 77gr. Sierra MK bullet (also non cannelured) through the CMP and any Federal Cartridge dealer. The cannelured Sierra MK bullets are available to the public as mentioned above. I suspect that it will only be a matter of time when the cannelured Noslers will be on the market. I have not been made aware if the military has chosen between the Sierra and Nosler offerings, but I feel sure that they will, if just for the purpose of standardization. I do know that the cannelured Sierra bullet is, in fact, a MatchKing which have tougher and thicker jackets than the Nosler Competition bullets, which use the J4 jacket. Does this cannelured Nosler bullet use the J4 jacket, and is it one of their Competition Bullet line? I'm asking because there's a question in my mind about the ability of a bullet with a J4 jacket to accept a cannelure. The only functional reason that a shooter would have to go to a cannelured round in ths caliber is if he was shooting a Class 3 weapon!
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 8:26:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: The only functional reason that a shooter would have to go to a cannelured round in ths caliber is if he was shooting a Class 3 weapon!
View Quote
Why? Unless I'm missing something here, why would a round be chambered any harder on a FA rifle than on a semi? The chances of bullet setback (or lack thereof) would be the same for both. It is the recoil buffer that slams the bolt against the chamber, and, to the best of my knowledge, it is the same for FA and semiauto-only rifles. Although I have yet to experience a setback with properly crimped bullets, I would prefer to have a cannelure in there, just in case...
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 8:55:01 AM EDT
Prolonged full-auto fire proved to cause bullet setback in the 5.56 magazine-fed weapons in Afganistan. Real conflict often uncovers things that do not show up in peacetime testing. You're right! Under normal circumstances recoil is the main thing that people tend to think of when considering the need to cannelure a bullet and crimp the case mouth to the cannelure. And that's probably what the people in the military and those at the bullet manufacturers were thinking when they went with the non-crimped and non-cannelured ammunition that was the only 77gr. 5.56/.233 ammo available at the time. Conventional wisdom has it that a cannelured bullet and a crimped case are detrimental to ultimate accuracy. It only stands to reason that the shooter would specify cannelured and crimped ammo if it was absolutely necessary. How much of this stuff do you see winning matches? Although as the people in the military that I know, and the reports that John Feamster has heard seem to indicate, this stuff is very accurate despite the crimping!
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 9:28:09 AM EDT
Does anyone have a link to the group buy? I couldn't find it over on the ammo section. I must be retarded. I can't believe folks are waiting in line to drop $300+ for 500 rounds of ammo. I guess I'm too damn poor.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 7:32:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: You give the impression on your above post that the only cannelured 77gr. .224 cal. bullet is a Nosler. At least that's how I read it! If you made an honest mistake it's quite understandable considering the amount of information that you must absorb to try and stay on top of this. If, on the other hand, this is an attempt to hawk a "special run" of Black Hills ammo for ar15.com it just appears as a cheesy move to make money for the site. I sincerely hope that this not true.
View Quote
I don't want to speak for Troy but I can say that the BH 77 grain buy isn't to benefit the site- its just a group buy to get the 77 grain bullet in a NATO pressure loading- no cheezy promo there. Also, I only recently saw Dr. Gary Roberts (IIRC) post on another site that Sierra had no interest in making a cannulured 77 gr.- so the existence of a Sierra cannulured bullet must be a pretty recent /little known development, right? Themao, Here's the group buy link (page down) [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=150906&page=5[/url]
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 8:21:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/15/2003 8:36:23 PM EDT by McBoingBoing616]
I'll repeat! The thread discussing the Sierra 77gr. MK cannelured bullets appears on this very forum. I brought up the sierra connection, and John Feamster verified it with his contacts at Sierra. Nosler has been trying to grab a piece of our military contract business for years, but so far unsucessfully. I don't blame them, this is a free enterprise economy, so if they can get a piece of it, more power to them. Sierra makes many sales to the public because in many cases civy shooters hear that Sierra is what the military is shooting, and figure that it'll work for them too. Sierra has a history of being pretty quiet about what it provides to our military, whether it's to the shooting teams, or as combat ammo. The USAMU, among others, have been winning for years using Sierra MK bullets. First with the 69gr. MK, and lately with the 77gr. and 80gr. MK bullets in Highpower competition. The military MUs can buy and use any bullet that they see fit to compete with, and believe me they try them all. They have nothing holding them to Sierra bullets except their performance! Nosler, on the other hand, has a whole lot to gain by having the word leak out that the military is trying out their bullets in combar. I've recently ordered a quantity of both the 77gr. and the 80gr. Nosler Competition bullets to try out in my Service Rifle. I have absolutely no connection with neither Sierra bullets or any of their employees, nor do I with Nosler. I have nothing to gain or to lose by either one gaining a military contract. If you're not aware of it, you should realize that the military M852 Match/Sniper round, the M118LR Match/Sniper round (both 7.62 NATO) and the A191 (Navy SEAL) Sniper round (.300 Win Mag) all use the Sierra MatchKing bullets. The production of the 77gr. 5.56 round will probably go to the Lake City Arsenal should the military settle on one version - so far there are Mod0, Mod1, & Mod2 versions out there - if a sufficient quanty is specified. As to ar15.com wanting to provide a NATO pressure version of this round to its members please be aware that NATO really didn't have anything to do with its development. It was developed for and by our military, and very well might come within acceptable NATO pressure specs but I doubt that it has even been tested officially by NATO or considered by them. BTW - check out CMPs pricing on the Black Hills 77gr SMK loaded (non cannelured) 500rd. cases of ammo. Then tell me who's not making a profit!! Sometimes idols turn out to have feet of clay.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 9:07:43 PM EDT
Thanks for the link Ahab. However, no one answered my second question. Who in the hell can afford this type of ammo? $300 for 500 rounds? I don't even think I'd spend that kind of money on ammo for a special rifle for special purposes (even if I made $250k a year). This is definitely not something for me. I'll stick with Q3131A for now until these bullets become cheaper and more mainstream. I'll survive until then. I don't reload, so that's perhaps 90% of my problem.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 9:08:14 PM EDT
Here's CMP prices: [url]http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Programs/Ammo.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 9:26:58 PM EDT
Mc Boing, I'm not sure you 'get it'. The new Nosler round wasn't chosen because it makes a better 'match' round. It was chosen due to its terminal performance (and the fact Sierra wasn't interested in producing a cannalured round for use by the trigger pullers). Its loaded to same chamber pressure as M193/M855 so its running about 200fps faster than the civilian equivalant load. This increase the range at which the round will fragment - very usefull for both the SPR & M4 carbines. It might not be as 'accurate' as the 77gr SMK - but its more than accurate enough and it has it where it counts (terminal performance).
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 4:44:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: As to ar15.com wanting to provide a NATO pressure version of this round to its members please be aware that NATO really didn't have anything to do with its development. It was developed for and by our military, and very well might come within acceptable NATO pressure specs but I doubt that it has even been tested officially by NATO or considered by them. BTW - check out CMPs pricing on the Black Hills 77gr SMK loaded (non cannelured) 500rd. cases of ammo. Then tell me who's not making a profit!! Sometimes idols turn out to have feet of clay.
View Quote
I appreciate the tip off that Sierra is making/has made some cannulured 77 grain- I missed the thread. Also- I know there is no "NATO standard" 77 gr. round- Maybe I should just say its a group buy for "higher than SAAMI spec. loading 77 gr." ..as for the rest- I'm not sure we're tracking perfectly here- The "ar15.com group buy" isn't funding the www.ar15.com web site to my knowledge. As for the question of who's making a profit, I would hope Tommy Haskins at Georgia Precision is making a profit seeing as he runs a business and is doing the actual buying of the ammo from Black Hills. Whats the problem with that? If you're in the CMP, it looks like you pay $520 for 1K 77gr. Asking $590 / 1K rounds for a loading that you can't readily get elsewhere doesn't sound nutty to me. ..and frankly, even if this was some group buy that helped out the site, Who cares? Is supporting ar15.com a bad thing? Do you think theres some under-the-table connection where Troy gets a kickback for referring business to GP?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 5:04:02 AM EDT
I've put 10 rounds of Federal Gold Match 77 grain 223's through my 24" Varminter, with excellent results. Maybe that 24" barrel with the 1:9 is enough to stabilize that firecracker - I don't know, I'm just starting to learn more about various types of ammo. H
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 5:20:03 AM EDT
Damn $590 per k is alot of $$ for loaded ammo! You can load your own 77 poser ammo for alot less $ " almost half ! " and have the same thing.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 7:05:04 AM EDT
Are there any readily available, non special run, commercial loadings of the 77 grain Nosler ammo? Where can one purchase 77 grain Nosler bullets for reloading?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 7:49:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tangeant: Damn $590 per k is alot of $$ for loaded ammo! You can load your own 77 poser ammo for alot less $ " almost half ! " and have the same thing.
View Quote
No you won't. Your ammo won't be sealed, nor will it have staked primers. And will it be running to the spec velocity? This is IDENTICAL to the ammo being purchased by the a few 'special' organizations.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:19:23 AM EDT
Here's the thread on the AR15.com group buy: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=150906[/url] 77gr Nosler BTHP with cannelure. "NATO" pressure, meaning that it's loaded for max pressure in "5.56" chambers (just like M193/M855). As I understand it the bullets with cannelure are a special run because the military asked for it, and Black-Hills had some leftover from a contract. Maybe they're available now, but apparently weren't at the time of [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=153643]Tat & Brou's test[/url]. The group buy is simply enough AR15.com members convincing Georgia-Precision to place a special order with Black-Hills for ammo that's not in their regular catalog. AFAIK everybody who's in on the group buy is looking for terminal performance at extended ranges, not extreme accuracy. If it's more accurate than M193, that's just icing on the cake.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:32:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By tangeant: Damn $590 per k is alot of $$ for loaded ammo! You can load your own 77 poser ammo for alot less $ " almost half ! " and have the same thing.
View Quote
No you won't. Your ammo won't be sealed, nor will it have staked primers. And will it be running to the spec velocity? This is IDENTICAL to the ammo being purchased by the a few 'special' organizations.
View Quote
Only the primer is sealed, that is no big deal as you can seal your own primers. You can easily load to NATO pressures. Also what good is it if you cant get any more? Once you do accuracy and trajectory testing and sight in the gun and get used to the way it recoils you cant ever use it again and even then youd only have a small amount on hand. Ammo that you cant get more of is pretty much useless to me. If Black Hills made the 77 grain ammo a standard item Id buy some, until then I will pass.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:41:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2003 8:43:40 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By DevL: Only the primer is sealed, that is no big deal as you can seal your own primers.
View Quote
This is how Georgia Precision describes it:
They will be loaded with NEW, 855 SPEC Brass which is thicker and more consistent in the web area. This is a True NATO pressure loading with a primer sealant and crimped primers.
View Quote
Are there tools for reloaders to stake (crimp) their own primers? If not you're missing an important part of the spec of military ammo. If you've shot enough 'military pressure' ammo w/o staked primers in AR-15s you will find out why its not a good idea. Those little buggers (primers) once they pop out from the high pressure/no stakeing will cause problems with your rifle. I had it happend twice to me. One time is was annyoing (primer occasionally prevented the fire control parts from operating - the other time it locked up the bolt carrier to the upper REALLY well. But like you I buy the 75gr Black Hills. Its available locally and works in my carbine to the distance I need it to. Though the increased fragmentation range of the 'Group Buy' load would be nice.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 9:44:12 AM EDT
Forest, What don't I 'get'? The gospel according to Forest? How many times do I have to repeat that Sierra DOES make a cannelured 77gr. .224 cal. bullet, it IS for sale at Mid South, and it is ALSO being loaded for the military? You might actually read earlier posts in this thread, and even better, check out a slightly earlier thread on this forum! The military tests for stability (pressure under all temperatures, etc.) then accuracy way before they check terminal performance. Penetration is part of that test. The Nosler bullet came into question because of the thin J4 jacket, if in fact it's using that in this cannelured bullet. Ahab, There is absolutely nothing wrong with Georgia Precision turning a profit on anything they sell. It is to be commended. CMP is certainly making a profit on their ammo sales since the Gov't. dissolved the DCM. That is how they keep their doors open! The only thing that concerned me was the wording of Troy's post, which implied to me that the 77gr. Nosler was the only cannelured 77gr. bullet being produced, and that the ar15.com deal was the only place to get it. If a profit is being made by Ga. Prec. and some of it finds its way to the ar15.com site to be used for the expenses of running this site, I'm all for that. What is not acceptable to me is the way in which it was presented. There is no secret ju-ju going on about the method that these rounds are being made! The 77gr. non-cannelured loads that are normally being cataloged right now by Black Hills and by Federal GMM are accuracy loads intended for competition such as CMP/NRA Service rifle. As such, accuracy loads are usually loaded to a bit below max pressure, because max pressure loads are normally not the most accurate in their class. Could you tell the difference if hit center mass with either? The M193 and M855 ammo are great for what they are, but please do not confuse that with real accuracy! Practice with it, stash it in your basement for the invasion of...... The Body Snatchers, Al-Quaida, the UN, the San Franciscans, or whatever. But don't confuse that with accuracy. DevL, You're spot on! Any loader can build this ammo to spec. But tell me, what use are sealed primers and cannelures to the average civilian shooter? Maybe for those that collect 'special' runs of ammo, and just sit there and stare at it? Or maybe for those that just can't see the Forest through the trees ;-) This all might be just wasted breath. If the military puts this ammo into inventory as a standard there's not much doubt that it'll be manufactured at the Lake City Arsenal and eventually be available to all of us as surplus, at surplus prices. "ar.15.com has a special run of 'what' for sale at WHAT price?" And if it never gains acceptance, perhaps because of a new cartridge - maybe the 6.7x43 - this 'special run' will just be an anachronism!
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 10:32:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: But tell me, what use are sealed primers and cannelures to the average civilian shooter?
View Quote
Ever hear of "SHTF" ammo? That's exactly what the special run by BH is. Anybody else get a feeling that this guy has ulterior motives - thus explaining his attitude? BTW, it's a 6.8x43mm.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 11:28:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Forest, What don't I 'get'?
View Quote
Obviously the reason why the round was selected.
I have to repeat that Sierra DOES make a cannelured 77gr. .224 cal. bullet,
View Quote
A Jonny-come-lately? When Crane asked them do this they weren't interested. The Mk262Mod0 orginally had to use the SMK 77gr w/o the cannalure and they experienced setback problems because of it. Note the newere Mk262mod1 uses the Nosler 77gr with cannalure to solve that problem. According to Dr Roberts it has both better reliability and terminal performance than the SMK version.
, and that the ar15.com deal was the only place to get it.
View Quote
As far as everyone knows it is since nobody else is turning out the ammo to the military pressure, sealing, and crimping of the primers.
But tell me, what use are sealed primers and cannelures to the average civilian shooter?
View Quote
[rolleyes]
This all might be just wasted breath. If the military puts this ammo into inventory as a standard there's not much doubt that it'll be manufactured at the Lake City Arsenal and eventually be available to all of us as surplus, at surplus prices.
View Quote
The ammo is inventoried for specific units and as such I doubt it will ever see widespread usage. But getting 'Surplus Ammo'? Where? Since Clinton's executive order there hasn't been U.S. surplus ammo available - at best you can do is find surplussed componenets.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 1:48:20 PM EDT
Can these heavier bullets (75 or 77gr) be sufficiently stabilized from a 1:9 twist barrel? Are ANY of the commercial loadings (Black Hills, Federal, Hornady) loaded to higher pressure such as "NATO's", or are they all downloaded?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 2:00:44 PM EDT
Odds are 50/50 at best on a 1/9 barrel. Works for some people, doesn't work for others. You'll just have to try it. As far as I know all of the factory 75/77gr loads are loaded to SAAMI specs. That's why we had to do the group purchase to get BH to make the higher pressure loading.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 2:08:38 PM EDT
When you say it does/doesn't "work" for different people, what do you mean? Is it just a little group dispersion where accuracy suffers a little? Or is it actual keyholing (like firing an SS109 out of a 1:12 twist barrel) and veering way the hell off target?
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 2:17:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By tangeant: Damn $590 per k is alot of $$ for loaded ammo! You can load your own 77 poser ammo for alot less $ " almost half ! " and have the same thing.
View Quote
No you won't. Your ammo won't be sealed, nor will it have staked primers. And will it be running to the spec velocity? This is IDENTICAL to the ammo being purchased by the a few 'special' organizations.
View Quote
So sealed primers and bullets and crimped primers are worth the extra $ 250+ ??? What is special velocity ???? Super secret Poser Ninja velocity ???? Any load can be duplicated once a sample has been chrono'd ... [bs2]
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 2:26:00 PM EDT
I think the 77gr "special ammo" for Special people is the same ammunition Black Hills loaded for the USAMU. If ninjas/special ops decided they needed longer range ammo for shooting folks in the desert or Afgan mountains they no doubt called the AMU or Marine shooting team and asked what worked best at over 500 meters. You can load the exact load at home for considerably less. It was loaded by hundreds of high power shooters before the military decided to use it. This is only a "secret load" for some folks who do not actually shoot.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 2:35:17 PM EDT
BigD, SHTF ammo? Are you playing with yourself? At $300. for 500rds? You must have more money than brains! Ulterior motive? No! I guess that I shouldn't care if a bunch of suckers buy everything they read on the 'net. If I call an error to a "gurus" attention there are sure to be sycophants like you all over my case. I don't really care what YOU do with your money, or what YOU choose to believe. Forest, You've got a nasty habit of posting half-truths. So if Mod0 ammo used non cannelured Sierra bullets, and Mod1 ammo used cannelured Nosler bullets, what do you suppose Mod2 ammo is loaded with, and why didn't you include it with your last post? Truth is that no definate determination on this ammo has been made as of yet by the DoD, and it all just might wind up on the shitpile someday soon. As to surplus ammo, I purchased several lots of the last of the M852 Sniper/Match that the CMP had. It's no longer in production, so don't expect any more. The M2 Ball still shows up now and then, but a large amount in the CMP stores is reserved for the John C. Garand Matches, where it is supplied to competitors by the CMP. There is still PLENTY of LC M193 available. I just visited a gunshop that recently recieved several hundred 500rd. cases to be sold. Just because the jackass communist that used to be in the White House put out an Executive Order against the sale of Milsurp ammo doesn't mean that our present occupant of the White House has to follow it! When Clinton slashed the military budget the reserve holdings of ammunition had to be tapped because of the mess he got us into in the Balkans for one. My friends on the All-Guard Team at the time told me that their ammo was pulled, and given to RA units to make up for the shortage! That's why you don't see as much surplus from certain sources as you used to. The private company that runs Lake City (Alliant) is allowed through its subsidiary (Federal Cartridge) to sell its overruns, so we will probably see more US Arsenal surplus available to us in the future. To the nit-picker out there - I wish that I the time to pick apart every entry in this forum in the hope of finding a .1mm discrepency. Does this mean that I shouldn't shoot 8mm Mauser ammo in my K98k marked "7.92mm"? I gots to know!
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 3:10:50 PM EDT
ABNAK, When I say it doesn't work for me I mean it's shooting 3" or bigger groups at 100yds when the 68gr shoots about 1" or so. I didn't see any keyholing in the couple groups I shot but it might be by 200-300yds.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:35:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 11:37:26 PM EDT by Austrian]
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: If, on the other hand, this is an attempt to hawk a "special run" of Black Hills ammo for ar15.com it just appears as a cheesy move to make money for the site. I sincerely hope that this not true.
View Quote
I think perhaps you should think about making a direct accusation here or not bring it up again. I am sure that people directly affiliated with AR15.com would be happy to disclose if they have any financial interest in the group buy of 77gr rounds that is listed here. It is pretty clear that the round was arrived at after pretty extensive testing paid for directly out of pocket without even a thought of financial compensation by AR15.com moderators. I happen to know that testing cost some of the mods close to 5 figures personally. That should end the matter. That is, unless you have some other motive or just like starting bar fights to illustrate your "superior" sources of information like an eager 7th grader in history class, hand waving frantically because he knows the answer. Ninjas, indeed. Now that I think of it, I haven't seen your name on any particularly noteworthy contribution towards the understanding of practical performance of .223 or related rounds. Or any post at all that wasn't putting down some other poster. Why is that exactly? Something compensatory in a psychological way perhaps?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:46:19 PM EDT
Austrian, Are you the site amateur psycologist or just some loser that can't handle seeing his idols undergo some hard scrutiny? It's already been established in previous posts in this thread (not necessarily mine) that there is some profiteering taking place under the name of "special purcase" in this particular case. If you don't want to question it, that's your right but don't ever dare to attempt to abrogate my freedom to speak my mind. Are you suggesting that ar15.com spent the money to develop the round in question? In whose dreams? We taxpayers, through our military, bore the costs of development! There is nothing wrong with raising money to help support this site. I've never suggested that an individual(s) was attempting to personally profit from this sale. What I object to is the misleading (to put it gently) way that this ammo deal was presented to the members. If you dislike me or my posts just scroll on by them. Be assured that I'll be doing the same with yours after this fiasco runs its course.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:12:04 PM EDT
Look man, its unbelievable where all this is going. I read through the thread offering the ammo as a group buy (and ordered 1K). As an outsider and someone who knows hardly as much as many about ammo and loads etc, it seems to me there is far too much speculation and unsubstantiated conclusions being made with a minimal amount of info. I could very well be mistaken, and if I am, I am sure someone will say so. However, AR15.com itself has nothing at all to do with this deal. Nor do the sites administrators, Sr. Staff, Staff, moderators etc. As I understand it, this merely happens to be the place where its being put together. Tommy and Georgia Precision (GAP- the people putting the ammo buy together) are AR15.com supporters. It costs a fair amount of money to be an AR15.com supporter. Unless mistaken, it is the advertising supporters of AR15.com that largely help sustain it. I believe AR15.com understands this very well. Thats why AR15.com has huge banners for supporters, give them their own section of the Industry Forum, and allow them to advertise moreso than non-supporting vendors. They are supporting the board financially already. In addtion, their mere presence here with their contribution and participation in all manner of discussion supports the site and helps makes it the great place it is. Are they going to make money off the ammo deal. I sure as heck hope so. Are they going to get rich, I doubt it. In fact, I am pretty sure they will be making less money than any of us think. Just a guess. Either way, GAP is doing all the legwork, making all the phone calls, all the wheeling and dealing with Black Hills, answering all the phone calls and emails of people who want in etc. If it isnt worth the extra cost for you to have them do this, dont buy it. All the more there will be for me. Could I load this ammo myself and make it to the same specs? Yeah, I bet I could. Do I have the time, energy or motivation to do it. No way. Is it worth it to me to pay maybe nearly twice the price it would cost me to do it myself? To me, absolutely. Simply because of the fact that if GAP were not offering this ammo I would never get anything like it. I simply do not have the time to load even half the ammo I would shoot in a month.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:05:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Austrian, Are you the site amateur psycologist or just some loser that can't handle seeing his idols undergo some hard scrutiny?
View Quote
Neither. I did work for 3 years in a PSYOPS capacity, but I'm not a MD or anything if that is what you mean. Then again, one doesn't have to have much more than a passing familiarity with pop psychology to identify a displacement issue or two in your postings. Yes, I have an appreciation for what the mods did here in testing various rounds, and rather selflessly I might add. Why not? It has been an impressive bit of work.
It's already been established in previous posts in this thread (not necessarily mine) that there is some profiteering taking place under the name of "special purcase" in this particular case.
View Quote
Nice use of the passive voice. Who, exactly, do you think is profiteering? Or do you mean "selling?" That's when people exchange goods for currency. It's pretty common in the firearms industry I'm told. You have this tendency to wildly overstate the claims of people you are criticizing and then use attacks on those overstated claims to bolster an emotional position that, because it is based on the invented positions of your targets and not reality, falls far afield of the actual discussion. Pretty classic conspiracy theorist static. Getting back to the point, who, exactly, do you think is profiting from this particular group buy? So far all I have have seen is a specification for an "ideal" home defense round based on several months of testing done gratis by two of the mods here, and the structure of a "group buy" through Georgia Precision of those rounds loaded by a world-class ammunition outfit. Where in this particular transaction do you see AR15.com or any of the moderators profiting? I'm sure GP is taking a cut, that's their business. I'm sure Black Hills is also taking a cut. That's their business too. Nowhere in that equation do I see anything like the massive conflict of interest conspiracy that you are weaving out, it would seem, of thin air. I would add that you might consider the legal ramifications of forwarding baseless accusations of criminal activity and fraud (what you are accusing AR15.com of is, in fact, illegal insofar as it includes kick backs), but then you would weave a wild tale about how I threatened you with my lawyers, right? I'll just leave that part out then.
If you don't want to question it, that's your right
View Quote
What's to question? The facts are pretty clear. Unless you know something no one else does. A secret slush fund for AR15.com promotions funded by GP perhaps? A kick-back scheme? To who? In what amount? You think there's actually that much profit floating around here to make it worth GPs while to structure a kick-back scheme? How does that math figure exactly in a 35,000 round purchase?
but don't ever dare to attempt to abrogate my freedom to speak my mind.
View Quote
Oh, here we go with the 1st amendment, that was only to be expected. What took you so long? Didn't I already address the exaggeration of your target's claims above? When will you finally get around to invoking the Nazis? Should be pretty easy since I have "Austrian" as my screen name. I guess I better put my jack boots away and take off the duct tape I gagged you with earlier, huh?
Are you suggesting that ar15.com spent the money to develop the round in question? In whose dreams?
View Quote
I'm not sure how you get anywhere close to this from anything I wrote, and I'm fairly certain you will not try to explain it in my lifetime either. In actuality, you've hit on something however. The particular loading, round selection and specifications for these rounds WERE in fact developed by an AR15.comer or two. They probably come close to what the military has ordered in past for testing, but certainly they aren't exactly the same. Nor are these particular loadings available on the commercial market anywhere else that I am aware of. As for development, I do know one AR15.com mod who has personally spent in excess of $15,000 to set up and use a lab to test the various rounds that were considered for home defense use in the AR15 platform, and the tests that eventually arrived at the 77gr round as the best for that purpose. To date that mod hasn't seen a penny of that money back, doesn't expect it and isn't involved in the group buy. If you're looking for conspiracy, you're in the wrong place. If you're still in the mood to tango though I invite you to accuse that mod of fraud in a public forum without facts. She has the teeth (and the lawyers) to defend herself quite well you will find.
We taxpayers, through our military, bore the costs of development!
View Quote
Of the particular round specification that's being ordered here? No, no you didn't.
There is nothing wrong with raising money to help support this site.
View Quote
Where do you see money for this group buy ending up in AR15.com's hands exactly? I don't believe even a penny does.
I've never suggested that an individual(s) was attempting to personally profit from this sale.
View Quote
What definition of "profiteering" were you using exactly then?
What I object to is the misleading (to put it gently) way that this ammo deal was presented to the members.
View Quote
Misleading how? What exactly do you think is happening? Perhaps you might tell us all how much money you think is flowing where.
If you dislike me or my posts just scroll on by them.
View Quote
You don't rise to the "dislike" level on my meter yet. Just "erroneous." Now, if you want to start accusing people of fraud, I think you probably better get a stronger handle on the facts. Put up or shut up, my friend. Until then you are just spouting sewage disguised as investigative journalism.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:28:25 PM EDT
new_arguy, Please! You don't know how this has gotten this far? Come on now! You obviously didn't read through this thread as you've just represented yourself as having done. I direct your attention to the sixth post on this thread, posted by "Troy - staff - AR15.com Moderator": "We've had Black Hills make us a batch of this ammo especially for us..... and we're doing a group buy right now". Does the word "we" stand for ar15.com? How about the word "us"? Just who does that denote? Nowhere in his post did Troy mention Georgia Precision! Are we supposed to conjur this information out of thin air, or was the name of Georgia Precision raised later in an attempt to CYA? Just how is anybody with even one iota of comprehension of the English language supposed to intrepret this series of contradictory statements that the Moderators are attempting to foist upon them? The old game of answering a question with an attack upon the motives of the questioner is as worn out as your excuses for the behaviour of the ar15.com Moderators in this affair. The only ulterior motive that I posess in this entire fiasco is that of a consumer who, without any intent of seeking merchandise to purchase, was approached with a financial offer and then was met by evasive answers when he questioned this attempt at selling him something. This business of "don't buy it if you don't like it" doesn't fly with me. In view of the preceeding exchanges of questions and retorts either your people are being dishonest or just plain incompetant. I will take this matter up with Georgia Precision in an attempt to see if their honesty will shed some truth on this, and will ask their principal to examine ar15.coms part in this!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:30:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: I will take this matter up with Georgia Precision in an attempt to see if their honesty will shed some truth on this, and will ask their principal to examine ar15.coms part in this!
View Quote
Let us know how this goes.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 10:55:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:08:55 PM EDT
I don't have to let you know how this goes. You'll find out for yourselves! I didn't mention the First Ammendment for a very good reason. It has nothing to do with the way I interpret your attempts to control the content of my posts. That's an up close and personal thing, between you and me. Feel free to go ahead and sic your lawyers on me. Are you also speaking for your cohorts too? You just might get what you wish for. As to the ammo in question, the stuff that I'm referring to is the civy copy of the cannelured ammo developed for our Spec Ops boys in Afganistan, not the defensive ammo that ar15.com has had around for a while. Don't attempt to take any credit for the development of this ammo in your try to smokescreen what is going on. Your tired and half-assed attempts to do some kind of psycological smearing is laughable. All that I've been looking for is a reasonable explanation of ths ammo deal. What I've received instead is evasiveness from some of the ar15.com people and insults from you. Is your stragety to seize the "moral high ground" by attempting to rile me up with your hogwash psych. 101 crap, and draw me into losing my temper? You're not good enough for that. You say that you served in PsyOps? Did you learn any of this at Holabird? If you did, you were a washout. Listen, REMF. Don't threaten me with lawyers, it just shows your ignorance, along with your lack of ability to debate intelligently. The same with your amateur psychologycal gamesmanship. And do make sure that you have permission to speak for others! Without it you're worse than just another poser. It makes you a poser that hids behind others skirts. I'm out of here. I can see that this has gone nowhere for quite a while. If you choose to continue this you'd better bring out your big guns, but be warned, mine's bigger than yours. ROTFLMFAO!!!!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:11:00 PM EDT
Here's the friggin link Hamburgler: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=150906&page=5[/url] Keep in mind now, it's a massive conspiracy against YOU!!!!! [whacko]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:14:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: I don't have to let you know how this goes. You'll find out for yourselves! I didn't mention the First Ammendment for a very good reason. It has nothing to do with the way I interpret your attempts to control the content of my posts. That's an up close and personal thing, between you and me. Feel free to go ahead and sic your lawyers on me. Are you also speaking for your cohorts too? You just might get what you wish for. As to the ammo in question, the stuff that I'm referring to is the civy copy of the cannelured ammo developed for our Spec Ops boys in Afganistan, not the defensive ammo that ar15.com has had around for a while. Don't attempt to take any credit for the development of this ammo in your try to smokescreen what is going on. Your tired and half-assed attempts to do some kind of psycological smearing is laughable. All that I've been looking for is a reasonable explanation of ths ammo deal. What I've received instead is evasiveness from some of the ar15.com people and insults from you. Is your stragety to seize the "moral high ground" by attempting to rile me up with your hogwash psych. 101 crap, and draw me into losing my temper? You're not good enough for that. You say that you served in PsyOps? Did you learn any of this at Holabird? If you did, you were a washout. Listen, REMF. Don't threaten me with lawyers, it just shows your ignorance, along with your lack of ability to debate intelligently. The same with your amateur psychologycal gamesmanship. And do make sure that you have permission to speak for others! Without it you're worse than just another poser. It makes you a poser that hids behind others skirts. I'm out of here. I can see that this has gone nowhere for quite a while. If you choose to continue this you'd better bring out your big guns, but be warned, mine's bigger than yours. ROTFLMFAO!!!!
View Quote
Did somebody say, [b]LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSS­SSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR­RR??????????????????????????????????????[/b] Get a life hamburgler. Join up over at AK-47.nutz. You'll be loved by everyone there, fake Navy SEALs, fake Russians, the whole nine yards. [whacko] [booze]
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 2:32:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2003 2:36:22 AM EDT by DevL]
Dont even give this sub 100 IQ dick wad the satisfaction of a response. He is SOOOOO edjumacated..... Check out his responce with his first hand knowledge of "frequency pulse matched lasers and NODs"
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Operators can use a Tennebraex to filter the Comp M red dot from an enemy using unaided vision at night. The 'true' military laser uses a super high frequency pulse-type beam that really cannot be detected by night vision equipment. In the event that the enemy had laser viewing equipment that was capable of 'seeing' one of our lasers he would 1) have to know the exact frequency of that laser, and 2) have to know exactly where it was coming from because its pulse is of such a very short duration! PFCs like us are not allowed to own such lasers, besides, they can put your eye out!
View Quote
If this guy really is in the military its a sad statement about who we let in.... [:(] I think he is just a troll from DU though. Just let it go man, you cant have a battle of the wits with an unarmed person so just let it go...
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 10:25:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By McBoingBoing616: Is your stragety to seize the "moral high ground" by attempting to rile me up with your hogwash psych. 101 crap, and draw me into losing my temper? You're not good enough for that.
View Quote
Oh, I'd say I had you past this point two posts ago.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:22:14 PM EDT
Well, there is either A LOT more going on here than I am privey to, or you're seeing things that no one else is?
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:27:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:48:04 PM EDT
"They're everywhere"
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 9:21:20 PM EDT
You guys crack me up!
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 9:26:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2003 6:30:04 AM EDT by FrankSquid]
McBoing, I have to wonder if your reading the same thread that everybody else is reading. The fact that you question Troys integrity is downright disgusting. As a moderator of this forum, I will show some restraint and I will not say how I [i]really[/i] feel about you. Please go crawl back under your rock or have a doctor check you for a chemical imbalance before you start posting again.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:15:21 AM EDT
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top