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Posted: 5/14/2003 3:36:49 PM EDT
I've read all the accuracy claims by Armalite and their distributers, now I would like to know the truth.
I'm not saying they are lying but they are claiming to get same results out of the box that I'm getting out of one very expensive highly customized 700
Well, are they exagerating?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 3:53:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sckoyrsht: .....Well, are they exagerating?
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No!
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:02:26 PM EDT
Yes and no. Hard to tell depending on what you mean when you say you have one highly customized Remington 700. If we're talking about something like a George Gardner "ROCK" or some other highly tuned precision stick, the AR10 Ts will have a hard time of it keeping up with an absurdly consistent 1/2MOA bolt gun. But the AR10 Ts do tend to stay under MOA on average with good ammo. Usually gets better with handloads. But running an AR10 T with good optics and mounts is likely to be right about 2500-2800 dollars, somewhat the same ball park as what accurized bolt guns will cost but the bolt actions are much more likely to perform consistently for the money. That said. My AR10 A4 with non-floated chrome lined barrel is turning in right at MOA at 100 yards with some of my better handloads. Total dropped into the rifle is right about 1700 dollars for a shootable rifle. Recently picked up a Remington 700 PSS in 300WinMag and my very first attempt at a handload has it printing groups of similar size to the AR10. Price spent on that rifle is right at 1000 for a shootable rifle.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:27:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 5:28:12 PM EDT by OldTiger]
My AR 10 A4 and my 700 PSS shoot about the same. So far all I have fired through my .308 upper is SA surplus. I'll have to compare them when I hve finished breaking in my GA Precision .260 Rem upper for the AR 10. I don't think you would be hurting yourself buying either or both.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:50:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sckoyrsht: I've read all the accuracy claims by Armalite and their distributers, now I would like to know the truth. I'm not saying they are lying but they are claiming to get same results out of the box that I'm getting out of one very expensive highly customized 700 Well, are they exagerating?
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".....out of the box....." - actually per ArmaLite's Technical Note 28, Breaking In Match Barrels, "Accuracy continues to improve for several hundred rounds." In the AR-10(T) rifles, the barrel must be broken in correctly, high grade ammunition must be used and the final component is the marksmanship of the shooter. ArmaLite tends to be conservative in their accuracy claims. A good number of guys shooting the AR-10A4 with the standard chrome lined barrel claim they're getting MOA from their rifles. Now have I seen them shoot the targets ?? No I have not but there seem to be too many making these claims for all to be bogus.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 5:56:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2003 6:11:10 PM EDT by DaveS]
You just started a thread in a forum heading that was named after the rifle in question due to its popularity. If you do a SEARCH you will find a few FTF & FTE threads here and there on the AR-10. I don't know of any threads where someone was not getting the published MOA rating for their configuration while using decent ammo. If there is one (1) I missed it. My 10s easily beat the specs. I have found two (2) amazing commercial loads that each of my 10s will shoot under half of their MOA ratings and lot numbers for each don't mean a damn thing: 1) Hornady Custom Classic - 150gr SST @ 2820fps 2) Winchester Supreme Competition - 168gr Nosler HPBT Match J4 If you want to atleast make the MOA rating of a particular 10 configuration then I suggest Georgia Arms G308M. $380.00/1000rds ain't too shabby for a round I rate as generic brand Federal GM. Yeah, my 10s like that stuff, too. Yeah, both of 'em, Fed and G-A. [url]http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned.htm[/url] You interested in getting one? Dave S
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:03:32 PM EDT
I am not the best shooter in the NY crew by any means, and I still manage to shoot within an inch at 100 yards.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 6:07:09 PM EDT
Black Hills .308 168 grain match ammunition + AR10T = .33MOA for me.
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:06:29 PM EDT
I would say Hell No! Don't get me wrong, I love and own a few SR25's and AR10's. Between the SR25 and the AR10, the early model SR25's had the closest chance to compete with an out of the box 700 PSS. The AR10 is somewhat capable of the desired accuracy, but it will take some money and Hot Rodding by a qualified gunsmith.. LS
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 8:50:10 PM EDT
Since I have "properly broken in" my AR-10T .308, I would put it up against anything. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid61/pe4903a75914c19988f524ec080ef90db/fc257c38.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 4:20:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner: I would say Hell No!
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Based on what?
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 4:38:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner: I would say Hell No! Don't get me wrong, I love and own a few SR25's and AR10's. Between the SR25 and the AR10, the early model SR25's had the closest chance to compete with an out of the box 700 PSS. The AR10 is somewhat capable of the desired accuracy, but it will take some money and Hot Rodding by a qualified gunsmith.. LS
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Hey STONED, All he asked was if the published MOA stats for the Armalite AR-10 rifle configurations were truthful, accurate, verifialble.......by 10 owners on this board. The 10(T) has the tightest rating of 1MOA. Your response should have been: "So, you have a highly customized 700 that gets 1MOA? You could have bought an AR-10A4....yeah, the chrome-lined version." back away from the bong, Dave S
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 5:51:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaveS: Hey STONED, All he asked was if the published MOA stats for the Armalite AR-10 rifle configurations were truthful, accurate, verifialble.......by 10 owners on this board. The 10(T) has the tightest rating of 1MOA. Your response should have been: "So, you have a highly customized 700 that gets 1MOA? You could have bought an AR-10A4....yeah, the chrome-lined version." back away from the bong, Dave S
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Dude! Don't get me wrong, I prefer the AR10/SR25 system over any Bolt-Gun. I find it more of a challenge to get an auto-loader to shoot as good, if not better then a bolt-gun. I'm just saying, between a new out of the box 700 PSS and a AR10(T), the 700 PSS will do much better then the 10T, especially with the first round out (some call Fouling Round), consistency in grouping and last round out of the feed device. I've built many of SR25s and AR10s and own a few of each. I would take an auto-loader to battle before a bolt-gun any day, but they do need some minor (some major) work to get them reliable and consistent. Sorry if I offended anyone. Good luck to Sckoyrsht on making his final opinion. LS
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 5:59:05 AM EDT
LS, I forgot the smilies. I was typing while the CEO was asking me project data ?s on the other side of the monitor. [Deanno Martin voice] I get paid for dooooinnng this [/Deanno Martin voice] [:D] Dave S
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 6:37:36 AM EDT
My AR10T started life as a Eagle AR10A4,I rebarreled it with factory SS Aramalite AR10T Barrel and handguard.Broke it in and it shoots 1/2 MOA with FED 168.I have many Custom 700s and the 10 shoots right with them.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 10:04:06 AM EDT
My Eagle Arms AR-10A4 has a 20" SS barrel. It's shooting better than MOA with my starting handloads and 1-1.5 MOA with Port surplus. I've just started loading for it so I expect it to improve once I work up a load it likes. I didn't bother breaking it in as Armalite suggested but I did swap that horrible trigger it came with for a RRA trigger.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 11:04:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaveS: You just started a thread in a forum heading that was named after the rifle in question due to its popularity. If you do a SEARCH you will find a few FTF & FTE threads here and there on the AR-10. I don't know of any threads where someone was not getting the published MOA rating for their configuration while using decent ammo. If there is one (1) I missed it. My 10s easily beat the specs. I have found two (2) amazing commercial loads that each of my 10s will shoot under half of their MOA ratings and lot numbers for each don't mean a damn thing: 1) Hornady Custom Classic - 150gr SST @ 2820fps 2) Winchester Supreme Competition - 168gr Nosler HPBT Match J4 If you want to atleast make the MOA rating of a particular 10 configuration then I suggest Georgia Arms G308M. $380.00/1000rds ain't too shabby for a round I rate as generic brand Federal GM. Yeah, my 10s like that stuff, too. Yeah, both of 'em, Fed and G-A. [url]http://www.georgia-arms.com/canned.htm[/url] You interested in getting one? Dave S
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Considering it, I feel it's just around the corner that someone comes up with a 5.56 upper that mounts an AR-10 lower. Now that would be an awsome system, one upper mounted with the other on your back. The ultimate in effectiveness at any feasible range. Just something I'm looking into.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 12:16:33 PM EDT
Funny thing about Remington? While the typical Remington VS, Sendero, and PSS rifles are able to perform at sub MOA levels it's not unheard of for those rifles to have problems getting under 1MOA. There have been a few instances of a Rem700 or two going back to the factory after not getting under 1MOA and Remington claiming that the rifle met their standards for accuracy. Anyone remember the hoopla back about 2 years ago where Remington 700s were coming out with bad chambers that were out of concentricity with the bore? Seems it was right as the RUM was starting to really take off. Damned things were a menace in terms of trying to get them to perform, one person who used to be on the AR15.com forums had the same rifle go back on 3 different occasions because the person couldn't get it to perform. Out of concentric chamber/bore was the problem with the first 2 barrels. Armalite is atleast trying to deliver an accurate rifle and make good on those promises. If the thing isn't making good they tend to do what they can to make the customer happy. Especially when they were doing the run of special barrel T variants.
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