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Posted: 5/11/2003 11:30:09 AM EDT
jus browseing EE, and not to take away from anyones business or sales, but i was jus curious why I would pay $2000 dollars for a bone stock preban AR..i mean does it do anything fancy? does it shoot better than my bushy postban? will a genie pop out and grant me 3 wishes? i mean, i could care less bout a bayonet, and as far as flash hider is concerned, ive got muzzle brakes that do the same or if not better job. the tele stock is okay if i needed the flexability to shortin things up..i guess unless it is serial number 1, i jus dont see why the price of a preban is so high, ya stil need 16" barrel, so thats not it.dunno..jus my thoughts.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 11:39:39 AM EDT
It didn't make any sence to me either. I couldn't see paying the extra for a preban when I could spend the monay on some extra goodies.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 11:41:07 AM EDT
Face it - pre-bans are collectible. You get a bayonet lug, and a flash-hider, and a telescoping stock if you want one. Do they shoot better? Nope. If the '94 Crime Bill expires, they'll still command a premium, just not as much as right now.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 11:42:33 AM EDT
Most important thing to me about preban is ability to mount Sound Suppresor. Hope to get M4-96D this summer if growing season is good.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:06:30 PM EDT
from what i understand the preban - postban. doesnt matter with sound suppressors ya still gotta get ATF letter for the suppressor. i think it goes the same way as postban with registered auto sear..once ya register the weapon (postban/preban doesnt matter) ya can put all evil features on it..im no expert by any means but this is how i understood the law..which goes back to original questions as to value of PReban?? if ya got an original Nam Era Sp1 NIB,, then i can see bringing in hi-dollar..but i dont see buyin a bushy preban from 1993.and paying 2Xs as much..thats jus me, lol
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:12:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:16:34 PM EDT
yeah your second statement , that is what i was talkin bout,,i didnt know the info on your first statement,.so now i know..lol.i didnt wanna give false info..i figured sumone would know the real deal laws..lol.anywhooooo
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:19:34 PM EDT
I have a postban Bushy and a preban Colt Sporter. They are both 16 inchers, they both shoot great, and they are both great rifles. However, when the SHTF I will grab my preban Colt. The collapsible stock and vortex suppressor are nice to have.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:35:39 PM EDT
In my experience and my mind, there's no question about it.... "pre-ban" rifles look better, handle better, shoot better, and hold their values better than "post-ban" rifles. Everything else being equal (including price), most knowledgeable shooters would choose a "pre-ban" configured rifle over a "post-ban" without thinking twice.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:59:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 1:00:57 PM EDT by NESurvival]
Originally Posted By GoodGuy: "pre-ban" rifles look better, handle better, shoot better, and hold their values better than "post-ban" rifles...
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Look better and hold their value maaaybe, but as far as shoot better and handle better - WTF?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 1:05:59 PM EDT
If you want to own what Klinton decided to allow you to own, buy a post-ban.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 1:50:09 PM EDT
i think a telestock is more comfortable for my girlfriend to shoot..thus making her shoot better. i plan on getting a suppressor before the year is over. i got deals on both my prebans though. i paid under a grand for each of them.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 1:55:52 PM EDT
KirkP...sorry but i 100% disagree with that statement..i bought my 1st ar cause i didnt want to spend alot of money and i didnt find the need to have preban features..i built my 2nd ar a month ago..and i really wanted the ACE stock.so tele stock wasnt needed..i built them cause I wanted them,not cause sumone said i could.sorry im not rich..so im not goin to buy a preban for 1200 plus dollars out of spite for the Klinton ADm.to say..i can buy this and you cant stop me.lol.cost and function and reliability are what motivate me..NOTHING else
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:20:26 PM EDT
Another thing about the prebans is some of them are old. The older the rifle the more likely that there has been allot of rounds put through them. I bought a new Colt for $880, the same thing in a preban is $1400. For $520 extra it doesn't shoot better and doesn't look better unless you like the collapable stock look. A compensator can be put on a postban and look like a flash hider. My gun had not 1 single round through it. I know that everytime I read a add for a preban for sale they always say rarely fired or only 500 rounds through the gun. Some of these preban guns are 20-30 years old and have gone through many owners. It could be allot more used than you think. All of the extra money you spend can go for extras like ammo,mags,bipod,scope,free floated barrel,2 stage trigger and so on. Save your money and put it into the extras. Or put it all into a killer scope and you will be happier.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:25:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 2:27:12 PM EDT by KirkP]
Um, dude. Go to a gunshow and pick up a model 1897 Winchester and check it out. A 100 year old one with all the finish worn off. Firearms are not like personal computers. They don't "wear out" in a few seasons. I've put over 10,000 rounds through one of my weapons, and it shoots better now than when I bought it new.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:30:17 PM EDT
...and I don't care about the "look" of a collapsible stock and a flash suppressor. I care about being able to shoot well while wearing body armor, and I care about not getting shot because I marked my position with a basketball-sized fireball everytime I squeeze the trigger.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:28:57 PM EDT
supply and demand... [;)]
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:30:19 PM EDT
Pre ban allows the mounting of the Magpul M93 stock and a Gemtech suppressor and bilock flashhider mount. For those reasons alone it was worth the money I spent.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:56:42 PM EDT
i use a levang muzzle brake,,i use this for the sole purpose of NV..i jus had an idea..i would like to see a test of muzzle brakes v. flash hiders..jus curious bout the diff. the muzzle brake i use..puts out very little flash..yeah im not tryin to turn this into a pre ban versus post ban war..lol..not really anyways..lol. i was jus curious as to the price diff. as far as not buyin an old rifle cause i feel its been shot alot..that isnt even a consideration in my book,,i know ARs hold durability well. reason why i bought 2,so if i found a used well worn SP1 for $500bux..i would jump on that deal, but for 1500-2000, i dont think so. lol..as far as the body armour principle. i dunno,,i dont have bodyarmor nor have i shot an AR with it..i suppose it would help..but i could also get a pinned stock and have it short if i really needed..still not worth the thousands ppl are askin IMO.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:56:59 PM EDT
- For some it is (and will be) a collector's relic for times in the future, better or worse. - For others it's a way to tack a bunch of gadgets on (of course the collector's value becomes compromised in some of these cases) - For others the excess cost is the insurance premium for the worst case scenario in 2004.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:08:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pulpsmack: - For some it is (and will be) a collector's relic for times in the future, better or worse.
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Hmmm... makes me wonder if my post-ban Bushy and 10-round Glock mags will eventually become collector's items too, if the ban isn't renewed. [:)] --Mike
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:16:53 PM EDT
to me,, the only collectable factors are the early prebans..they hold valve not due to '94, but for the fact of the role they played in conflicts and the changes that had been made over the years..to me a 1992 preban shouldnt be thousands more than a 1994 postban with the exact same features..on the same note,,i understand why the valve of , say Glock , hicaps are expensive. for these are not made anymore other than LEO,,so supply and demand does pertain to that..but IMO not to AR rifles..lol.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:46:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DEERSNIPER: Most important thing to me about preban is ability to mount Sound Suppresor. Hope to get M4-96D this summer if growing season is good.
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This and the fact that I prefer the collapsable stock to the fixed one. That's why I own a pre-ban AR. My M1A is postban, as the only difference on the M1A is the bayonet lug. Alex
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:49:00 PM EDT
For a while I just could not get used to the (look) of the AR without the flash hider. So I did not get one. After some time past the (look) became less and less of an issue to me. So I had a choice, Spend $1400 on a PB, or $800 for a Post ban? $600 diff. Hummm let's see with a PB I get a cool looking flash hider and a bayo lug. all for only $600 more. Needless to say I've been very happy with my post ban bushy. With that extra $600 I bought a Glock 21C.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:13:42 PM EDT
yipper,,the only part of pre v. post that i can see, is the collapsable option..but like ya said.its a 600 dollar plus option..lol..i think ill pass.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:48:00 PM EDT
I have both a preban (that I got shortly after the ban for $800) and post bans. You really need to shoot it at night if you think your brake does a good job supressing the flash. I have a phantom brake on my preban and there is almost no flash at all. I have cav comps on two of the post bans, a wilson comp on another and the last one is a varminter, so it has nothing. You would not believe the size of the fire ball at night with the post bans. Your night vision is flat gone with one round. If you every envision shooting or getting in a fire fight at night you MUST have something with a flash supressor or you won't be able to see your target (hell! You can't even see your sights!) on your second shot.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 6:00:51 PM EDT
You don't have to pay $2000.00 plus. I've got one for sale here http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8869434 for $1,199.00 that works great. It's really not all that much more than your standard $850 bushy, but its a collectable.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 6:40:54 PM EDT
No problem at night finding my sights w/ my armalite 16"/ brake. no doubt im leaving a beacon with it though.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 8:01:03 PM EDT
The only ones out there saying prebans are a waste of money are the ones who cannot afford them.[bounce]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:03:26 AM EDT
The whole point for me to be into AR15s is to have a weapon as closely resembling the M16 as possible...otherwise, why not just buy a Mini-14? And YES, the flash suppressor and retractable stock are important features to have--more than mere functional. As for preban vs postban, go preban. Why have a Porsche but with a Subaru engine in it? It is false that you have to pay $2,000 if you only look around and quit whining. Got mine for $1,100 NIB.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:16:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 3:00:09 AM EDT by RAMBOSKY]
Orininally Posted by GoodGuy: "In my experience and my mind, there's no question about it.... "pre-ban" rifles look better, handle better, shoot better, and hold their values better than "post-ban" rifles. Everything else being equal (including price), most knowledgeable shooters would choose a "pre-ban" configured rifle over a "post-ban" without thinking twice."
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[b]My[/b] AR's look better, handles better and shoots better because [b]I[/b] own them, handle them and shoot them.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:17:32 AM EDT
With an AK style brake on a post ban and a 20 inch barrel there is little difference than an M4 with a pre ban flash supressor. Most of the gases have burned off through the 20" barrel, while the M4 has still got alot of cook off left on the M4 W/ supressor. I look at it this way.... Get an M1A Mil Spec for 1100.00 and you get the flash hider to boot and a REAL battle rifle that will take out your enemy at 500 to 1000yds and then you can steel your self a pre ban configured rifle and it won't matter because when the SHTF all bets are off and when the new Government is installed it will be a Government that observes the 2nd ammendment anyway. All the BS that has been going on for the last 80 years of gun confiscation will be over and water under the bridge. If you have an M1A you won't have to get close enough to the enemy to be seen at or shot at to begin with so this whole conversation is over. I say buy the post ban in the AR15 and save the rest of your money and get a M1A, it will be your ticket for a real M16 or MP5. We should ALL be thinking 308 rifle past 175 yds or less if you got an M4.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:30:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin: ....i jus had an idea..i would like to see a test of muzzle brakes v. flash hiders..jus curious bout the diff. the muzzle brake i use..puts out very little flash..
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we did this at Front Sight when i went to the 4 day Practical Rifle class there. bare nekkid muzzled make lotsa flash, some brakes like the AK74 style make it worse... looks like a "bowtie", the LeVang throws it all forward instead of out to the sides... not bad, but still very noticible. no flash from a Phantom on a 20" just a little bit on a 16", Vortex has none on a 16". i've also seen basicly the same thing at night-time 3-gun shoots. loosing the muzzle signature, being able to mount a suppressor and having a stock that's adjustable to fit shooters of various sizes, or sinmply for trasnport are good enough reasons for me... and i still need to get post-ban barrels for the lowers i have in the safe, one will get a CZ .22 upper.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:25:36 AM EDT
PRE-BAN lower + ZM LR 300 = SWEET FOLDING STOCK AR! [+]:D]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:36:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4C: As for preban vs postban, go preban. Why have a Porsche but with a Subaru engine in it? It is false that you have to pay $2,000 if you only look around and quit whining. Got mine for $1,100 NIB.
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I don't argue with your point, but I take issue with your analogy. As far as I am concerned an AR-15 IS a "Porsche with a Subaru engine". Your more proper analogy would be "a Porsche without the "whale tail". after all the banned features are indeed functional in nature, but moreso ergonomic. I'd call the M-16 fire control parts the "Porsche engine" myself.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:03:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 1:12:57 PM EDT by die-tryin]
well i guess civility jus went out the window..As far as not being able to afford a preban..lol.yeah right..ya know how the rich get richer by not spending money on sumthing they can get cheaper..why spend 1000-1100 on a preban where i dont need the features..but the fact i can build a postban for 500 +/-. i can afford any preban out there including C3..i choose not to.easier to spend 700-800 on a bare gun and spend couple hundred on optics etc..
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:18:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 1:19:27 PM EDT by jfrush]
Originally Posted By die-tryin: well i guess civility jus went out the window..As far as not being able to afford a preban..lol.yeah right..ya know how the rich get richer by not spending money on sumthing they can get cheaper..why spend 1000-1100 on a preban where i dont need the features..but the fact i can build a postban for 500 +/-. i can afford any preban out there including C3..i choose not to.easier to spend 700-800 on a bare gun and spend couple hundred on optics etc..
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You are right, if the reasons to buy a pre-ban aren't worth the extra cost then your money would be better spent elsewhere. When I bought my first AR I couldn't think of a good reason to spend the extra money on a used pre-ban when I could get a new post ban for hundreds less and the only difference for the configuration I wanted was a flash hider For my second AR I did buy a pre-ban for these reasons. (in order of importance) 1. I found a mint Colt for $1000 2. I wanted to build a Close Quarters Combat AR and a REAL collapsible stock was a must. 3. I wanted the flash hider look but I don't like the idea of permanantly attached muzzle brakes.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:34:16 PM EDT
i realize ppl choose the firearms based on their needs or wants..i have no problem with that..for me personally i dont need those features.that is why i choose not to get one..let alone be sucked into the supply and demand frenzy.there is nothing in this world that i need bad enough to spend extra money on unnecessarily..this is jus me.if i found a preban at a good price..im buying it cause its a good price not necessarily cause its a preban..i understand prebans bring more money..thats because consumers let it happen..if enough ppl said that they jus arent payin that price than the price wouldnt have gotten outa hand.yip its supply and demand..
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