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Posted: 5/8/2003 1:07:27 PM EDT
Can an 18 year old Colt AR-15 A2 HBAR SPORTER with Serial #SP216129 currently in Canada be purchased and sent to my FFL here in Texas while remaining Pre-Ban? I checked the list and the serial number is Pre-Ban.

Any input would be appreciated.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:29:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By snice: Can an 18 year old Colt AR-15 A2 HBAR SPORTER with Serial #SP216129 currently in Canada be purchased and sent to my FFL here in Texas while remaining Pre-Ban? I checked the list and the serial number is Pre-Ban. Any input would be appreciated.
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Yes. Once a pre-ban always a pre-ban. There is nothing I'm aware of that can change the pre-ban status of a rifle. Except another ignorent unconstitutional law of course.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:31:40 PM EDT
Even with the gun being outside the United States. I thought the ban disallowed import of guns with "evil features"?
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 1:45:39 PM EDT
The Import Ban is for guns that are made elsewhere and brought into the USA. That pre-ban Colt was originally made here in the USA so its not a foreign rifle. You might need some sort of import permit. This is definitely an interesting situation to say the least. Hopefully there is a way to get that Colt back over the border.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 2:17:05 PM EDT
The US State Department handles importation of firearms, so give them a call re what you have to do to get it in---but get it back, before the durned Canadians chop it up.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 3:43:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 3:45:38 PM EDT by neilfj]
Originally Posted By jfrush: Yes. Once a pre-ban always a pre-ban. There is nothing I'm aware of that can change the pre-ban status of a rifle. Except another ignorent unconstitutional law of course.
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Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) Once a pre-ban does not mean always a pre-ban. Removing and selling/disposing of the 'evil-features' magically turns it into a post-ban. Also, selling the stripped pre-ban lower receiver magically turns it into a post-ban. There's a BATF letter around here someplace that gives the details, but in a nutshell: Once a pre-ban, not always a pre-ban. Once a post-ban, always a post-ban.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 5:42:29 PM EDT
Realy they way I read the law. If the weapon was assembled prior to september 94 its a preban and always will be a preban. According to what your saying if I detail strip a weapon it can change its status. PAT
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:09:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By neilfj:
Originally Posted By jfrush: Yes. Once a pre-ban always a pre-ban. There is nothing I'm aware of that can change the pre-ban status of a rifle. Except another ignorent unconstitutional law of course.
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Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) Once a pre-ban does not mean always a pre-ban. Removing and selling/disposing of the 'evil-features' magically turns it into a post-ban. Also, selling the stripped pre-ban lower receiver magically turns it into a post-ban. There's a BATF letter around here someplace that gives the details, but in a nutshell: Once a pre-ban, not always a pre-ban. Once a post-ban, always a post-ban.
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Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) If the rifle was assembled into a COMPLETE rifle before the ban it is a pre-ban. You can strip it and sell the lower and the new owner can re-assemlbe it into a pre-ban. What you are thinking of is a lower that was made before the ban but was NOT assembled into a complete rifle, in that case it is not a pre-ban lower. You can take "evil" features off of a pre-ban upper to make it legal to put on a post-ban lower. Taking off "evil" features DOES NOT however Change the status of a pre-ban lower to a post-ban.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 6:26:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By snice: Can an 18 year old Colt AR-15 A2 HBAR SPORTER with Serial #SP216129 currently in Canada be purchased and sent to my FFL here in Texas while remaining Pre-Ban? I checked the list and the serial number is Pre-Ban. Any input would be appreciated.
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I don't believe the question is whether or not this rifle is a preban but whether or not the rifle can be legally imported. [b]I know I'm not qualified to give you an answer and suggest that you post your question in the Legal Forum.[/b]
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:06:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 7:12:13 PM EDT by QuikSilver]
Originally Posted By jfrush: Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) If the rifle was assembled into a COMPLETE rifle before the ban it is a pre-ban. You can strip it and sell the lower and the new owner can re-assemlbe it into a pre-ban. What you are thinking of is a lower that was made before the ban but was NOT assembled into a complete rifle, in that case it is not a pre-ban lower. You can take "evil" features off of a pre-ban upper to make it legal to put on a post-ban lower. Taking off "evil" features DOES NOT however Change the status of a pre-ban lower to a post-ban.
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BZZZZZZ...Actually you are WRONG! Any rifle marked "COLT" and "AR-15" is automatically a pre-ban and the lower can be stripped, sold off and it will NEVER change the status of it. Colt AR-15's were banned by NAME and NOT by feature. That is why Colt's do not need to stay a rifle the entire time and are commonly sold as lowers only! That is why anyone who has a Colt AR-15 does not need to worry about proving the status of the weapon. What you said is true of a rifle that is anything but "COLT AR-15" Read the original post again... Anyways, back to the original topic, I hope someone can help you out and get that Colt back home.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:54:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuikSilver:
Originally Posted By jfrush: Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) If the rifle was assembled into a COMPLETE rifle before the ban it is a pre-ban. You can strip it and sell the lower and the new owner can re-assemlbe it into a pre-ban. What you are thinking of is a lower that was made before the ban but was NOT assembled into a complete rifle, in that case it is not a pre-ban lower. You can take "evil" features off of a pre-ban upper to make it legal to put on a post-ban lower. Taking off "evil" features DOES NOT however Change the status of a pre-ban lower to a post-ban.
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BZZZZZZ...Actually you are WRONG! Any rifle marked "COLT" and "AR-15" is automatically a pre-ban and the lower can be stripped, sold off and it will NEVER change the status of it. Colt AR-15's were banned by NAME and NOT by feature. That is why Colt's do not need to stay a rifle the entire time and are commonly sold as lowers only! That is why anyone who has a Colt AR-15 does not need to worry about proving the status of the weapon. What you said is true of a rifle that is anything but "COLT AR-15" Read the original post again... Anyways, back to the original topic, I hope someone can help you out and get that Colt back home.
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Well I can understand that since colt stopped naming there rifels AR-15 way before the ban. But the main point is that if a rifle is legally a pre-ban, it will stay a pre-ban. As far as the import issue I'm sorry I can't help with that.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 8:09:42 PM EDT
OK, lets get this straight. If the lower is marked Colt AR15 it is always a pre-ban by name. Any of the other rifles made before the ban are pre-ban. If the evil features were ever removed from the rifle, and then it was sold without those features, it is no longer a pre-ban according to ATF opinion. So if you were to strip down your pre-ban bushie rifle and just sell the lower, it is no longer pre-ban.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 12:26:33 AM EDT
For a preban to start off as a preban, it had to leave the factory as a rifle before 1994. If anytime on any rifle Colt or Whatever, I stripped it and sold the stripped lower, it would become a post ban rifle. Its plain and simple. Rob
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 3:56:41 AM EDT
Most of you guys would qualify for the job of Iraq Information Officer. You hear some shit at a gun show and make shit up the way you want it to be. Being marked AR15 is just a name, it qualifies nothing, Colt shipped many many AR15marked LEonly rifles after the ban which did not have the LEonly/Government markings which came later. So obviously the AR15marking means nothing. To preban qualify the rifle must have been assembled in preban configuration or with a preban kit. Obviously it is a preban as Colt sold only complete rifles. If the rifle is stripped of it's evil features and sold in stripped format it becomes post ban. That's the ruling how ATF would ever prove that is beyond me. As for importation. Once guns leave this country they are now imported foreign guns. They must be imported by someone with an importer's license and marked as such on the receiver. That is where Pre86 Dealer Sample machineguns came from. Even though US made they left the country sometime and came back in before 1986, they are considered imported machineguns and imported machineguns got stopped in 68. If you know the serial number call up Colt they will run it for you and let you know if it was sold in the US or direct imported to Cananda. I would think for the little you could possibly save on the purchase that you should just buy a preban here. I know you want to save this gun from the chopper when the registered owner dies, but it's a lost cause. Yes in Canada they grandfathered/registered the owners as assault weapon or machinegun owners, thier guns never transfer and the guns become contriband when the owner dies. I have a co-worker up there with a Steyr Aug worth 5k here and it's not worth a plug nickle up there.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:11:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Most of you guys would qualify for the job of Iraq Information Officer. You hear some shit at a gun show and make shit up the way you want it to be. Being marked AR15 is just a name, it qualifies nothing, Colt shipped many many AR15marked LEonly rifles after the ban which did not have the LEonly/Government markings which came later. So obviously the AR15marking means nothing. To preban qualify the rifle must have been assembled in preban configuration or with a preban kit. Obviously it is a preban as Colt sold only complete rifles. If the rifle is stripped of it's evil features and sold in stripped format it becomes post ban. That's the ruling how ATF would ever prove that is beyond me.
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Exactly right. Now if I can only find my copy of the BATF letter that details this for inevitable doubters/nay-sayers that are going to join in. This has been posted/asked over & over again in the legal forum, for those that may wish to do a search for themselves. As for the importation question that this thread is supposed to be about...I'll leave that to others who know more about it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:29:41 AM EDT
As a few of you have finally honed in on this is an import question. We know without a doubt that the weapon is Pre-Ban. I called Colt and cannot, without paying $100 minimum research fee, find out if it was manufactured for direct export to Canada. I have emailed the owner to find out EXACTLY how the Colt made it to Canada. In conversations with the Dallas, Seattle and DC offices of BATF I have not found anyone who could answer this question. I spoke, this morning, to an official in the customs section of BATF in DC and he is researching the issue. It has been interesting talking to the various BATF employees about their understanding of the AWB and how it is to be applied. I even had one woman tell me, "you can't even own an Assault Weapon, so what makes you think you can import one?" Crazy, Huh! You would hope that if the Federal Government enacts legislation that infringes on our Constitutional rights that they would, in the very least, require the people that enforce it to understand what it is. My guess is the average LEO on the street knows ten times more about the AWB than most BATF employees. Anyway, I'll post what BATF's import section comes back with later in the day.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 8:09:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Most of you guys would qualify for the job of Iraq Information Officer. You hear some shit at a gun show and make shit up the way you want it to be.
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I am with you brother.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:03:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2003 9:08:57 AM EDT by QuikSilver]
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Being marked AR15 is just a name, it qualifies nothing, Colt shipped many many AR15marked LEonly rifles after the ban which did not have the LEonly/Government markings which came later. So obviously the AR15marking means nothing.
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I absolutely hate doing this to the guy's post, but you are WRONG and spreading WRONG information! I cut and pasted the part of the 1994 Crime Bill that relates to this, so you can read it yourself DAvid_Hineline : (b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph: `[red](30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--[/red] `[red](A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--[/red] `(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); `(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; `(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); `[red](iv) Colt AR-15;[/red] `(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; `(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; `(vii) Steyr AUG; `(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and `(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; `(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-- `(i) a folding or telescoping stock; `(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; `(iii) a bayonet mount; `(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and `(v) a grenade launcher; Yeah I forgot, the term COLT AR-15 means nothing......sure buddy.....[smash]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:14:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jfrush: Well I can understand that since colt stopped naming there rifels AR-15 way before the ban. But the main point is that if a rifle is legally a pre-ban, it will stay a pre-ban.
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Sure Colt used other terms, but Colt made Factory pre-ban flat-top M4's that were marked "AR-15 A3" right up until the ban. So no, Colt didn't stop using that name "way before the ban."
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:43:32 AM EDT
QuikSilver, I don't mind you doing this to my thread. In fact, I’m glad you did. Everyone needs to remember that the Internet is a great place to pick up useful information; it is an even better place to pick up a load of crap. I am usually wary of any open comments that have such strong, in your face, tones to them. Yes, that means you David_Hineline. I think that a little bit of prudence can go along way. You have probably noticed by now that my name is Salim. Yes, I look Arabic and I am a U.S. citizen. I am not a Muslim, I drink beer and I eat swine at every opportunity. I moved to Texas in January with my wife and by March I had two special agents from the FBI on my doorstep, on a Sunday, to confirm that I am not a terrorist. So, if my new neighbor or the local Sheriff thinks that because of my looks I am dangerous, what the hell is he going to think if I am shooting an illegal AR-15 in my back yard? I’d say I’d be screwed! Look people, I know that I just hijacked my own thread, at least I wasn’t the first to do it, I’m just saying that if we are going to take the effort to voice our opinions on our right to bear arms then we better know what the hell we are talking about. It scares me to think that every weekend at gun shows around the country there are ignorant people buying and selling banned weapons and accessories; that the people who are charged with enforcing the ban, BATF, don’t even understand it; and that based on my looks alone I am of interest to the FBI. Crazy, Huh!
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 9:17:19 AM EDT
Snice; Sorry for contributing to the hijacking of your thread and I hope you got the information you had originally requested. I just hate seeing the propogation of incorrect information in any form, especially on something that 'could' land someone in a heap of trouble. For those interested, the information regarding pre-ban/post-ban status changes can be located here: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=74364[/url]
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 10:56:19 PM EDT
Mr QuickSilver AKA Slow Thinker, I was posting in reply to the guy that said any AR15 marked gun is preban because they banned AR15marked guns by name. My point and it is correct if you had bothered to listen instead of yapping like a Yorkshire Terrier on speed is the Colt AR15 marking does not mean the gun is preban. Any Colt AR15 marked gun after the 94 ban went into effect is automatically alway a post ban assault weapon and they sold many many many to police departments. Citizens get sucked into thinking and assuming the Colt AR15 they are buying is preban because Colt did not mark these post ban assault weapons Le/Govment only.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 12:33:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 12:34:23 AM EDT by coltcarbine]
David_Hineline Most of you guys would qualify for the job of Iraq Information Officer. You hear some shit at a gun show and make shit up the way you want it to be Mr QuickSilver AKA Slow Thinker....... if you had bothered to listen instead of yapping like a Yorkshire Terrier
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I just wanted to be the first to say, [size=5][red]YOUR ATTITUDE SUCKS![/red][/size=5] and since it does, you have lost most of your credibility.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:05:16 AM EDT
I am a GI stationed in Europe and I have actually researched a similar situation with the ATF import branch. I was presented with the chance to buy several pre-ban Colts for very cheap ($800 each) here from fellow soldiers. They were brought from the States, and the same soldiers who brought them here could legally bring them back. Anyways, the ATF said that an imported firearm had to meet current import regulations (no assault weapons, etc) regardless of country of manufacture (even US). Since I didnt bring the guns over, I would have to put in an import permit as it would be a new import. Which of course, would be denied. WHen or where the gun was made didnt matter. THis was from Europe. I dont know about Canada, as they are almost the same as the US but they still count as another country. I sssume it would be the same.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:34:23 AM EDT
Gee, what are we going to talk about here when the ban expires? Oh, NEW TOYS!
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 5:39:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Mr QuickSilver AKA Slow Thinker, I was posting in reply to the guy that said any AR15 marked gun is preban because they banned AR15marked guns by name. My point and it is correct if you had bothered to listen instead of yapping like a Yorkshire Terrier on speed is the Colt AR15 marking does not mean the gun is preban. Any Colt AR15 marked gun after the 94 ban went into effect is automatically alway a post ban assault weapon and they sold many many many to police departments. Citizens get sucked into thinking and assuming the Colt AR15 they are buying is preban because Colt did not mark these post ban assault weapons Le/Govment only.
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And all those rifles sold to police departments are now being sold off to private citizens.[rolleyes] Even if some small amounts were being sold when they weren't supposed to be, it would still be a small number. That would mean that the vast majority of Colt AR15 marked rifles are pre-ban, whether you want to believe it or not. I also agree with what coltcarbine had to say.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 2:48:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 2:52:56 PM EDT by Gun Guru]
Originally Posted By QuikSilver:
Originally Posted By jfrush: Buzzzzzzz! Wrong answer! :) If the rifle was assembled into a COMPLETE rifle before the ban it is a pre-ban. You can strip it and sell the lower and the new owner can re-assemlbe it into a pre-ban. What you are thinking of is a lower that was made before the ban but was NOT assembled into a complete rifle, in that case it is not a pre-ban lower. You can take "evil" features off of a pre-ban upper to make it legal to put on a post-ban lower. Taking off "evil" features DOES NOT however Change the status of a pre-ban lower to a post-ban.
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BZZZZZZ...Actually you are WRONG! Any rifle marked "COLT" and "AR-15" is automatically a pre-ban and the lower can be stripped, sold off and it will NEVER change the status of it. Colt AR-15's were banned by NAME and NOT by feature. That is why Colt's do not need to stay a rifle the entire time and are commonly sold as lowers only! That is why anyone who has a Colt AR-15 does not need to worry about proving the status of the weapon. What you said is true of a rifle that is anything but "COLT AR-15" Read the original post again... Anyways, back to the original topic, I hope someone can help you out and get that Colt back home.
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Sorry, I beleive you are wrong and David is right. I am holding in my hand a Govt Carbine AR15 A2 ser# GC0220XX it does not have the LEO stuff on the side, On the box it has the blue label sticker and on that sticker is a little whitesticker that says COLT 6520 LE AR15A2 CAR. Tell me, is this gun preban? LEO? or what? There are even Colt sporter post ban receivers out there. R GUNS or Hoplite sold them. GG
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:50:39 AM EDT
Stottman, I get the same impression from D.C. However, if you uninstalled any evil features couldn't you import them legally and then reinstall them?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:12:06 AM EDT
Unless a person registers the gun with customs before leaving the US, it gets the same status as a imported gun. For a semi auto: no evil features and cant take hi caps. That pretty much cuts out the AR. Even if you made the AR compliant and imported it, then converted it back it would still count as a post ban. It would lose any preban status as it would be imported after the import ban.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 3:27:24 PM EDT
Just because I'm an asshole and call stupid people stupid does not mean I am not always right.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 6:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 7:13:34 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: Just because I'm an asshole and call stupid people stupid does not mean I am not always right.
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This may be true sometimes.[;)] That still doesn't change the fact of what we are discussing. Since we like to be so particular about things around here, we have to stick to what the law says. As pointed out on the first page. A Colt AR15 is an assault weapon and banned. It is banned by name and not features. Why do you think Colt doesn't sell post-ban configured rifles stamped Colt AR15 on them to private individuals? That is why they are sporter rifles or whatever name they want to slap on the side of them, except for Colt AR15. If people are stripping LEO rifles down that have Colt AR15 stamped on them, and they are without the LEO markings, it is still an illegal rifle when assembled in one configuration or another according to the code. With that, this is probably a rare instance and the great majority of Colt AR15 marked rifles that are out on the market are pre-bans and exempt from the whole features nonsense.
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