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Posted: 5/4/2003 4:01:29 PM EDT
I have talked to these three companies, on the phone, in the last 5-6 weeks.

Cavalry Arms- There had been mentions, on this site and another I know of, that CavArms was "thinking" about making a closed magwell design unit. This would, in theory, be easily adaptable to their construction process.
I called at the end of March, inquiring about the new CavArms SOCOM stock, and asked them about any lowers. I was told that CavArms was too small of a company to absorb the liability insurance needed to protect them from California product laws, but they were " considering licensing the design to a larger production company".

Bushmaster - I talked to Jarod at Bushmaster on 3/31, to order a 14.5",1/7,M4 barrel, and asked about "the super-secret California lower". Jarod laughed and said "We made up a couple of prototypes, nothing serious. Right now we are so busy with LEO and military contracts, and the civilian market has just taken off , thanks to you guys, that we don't have time to deal with any new designs." I asked about Troy's 16", 1/7 barrels, and he said " No decisions yet"

Dalphon - I talked with Blaine at Dalphon on March 2nd, about the CA-CAR lowers. They are not in production and there is no current time table for starting. I did find out a little more about the design. It does retain the bolt catch, but there are no provisions for using stripper clips, so loading is done by hand, one at a time.

All bad news, sorry folks. Our only option is still the FAB 10
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 5:37:36 PM EDT
This would explain the seemingly exorbitant prices the FAB-10 costs to Californians who wish to get an AR-type rifle. My FFL says stripped FAB-10 lowers are at $275 (!!!!) now! Given that you can pick up a normal stripped lower from $89.95 somewhere on EE -- for the rest of you not in CA -- it just doesn't seem worth it. No competition for the FAB-10 makers so they can charge whatever the market will bear. I'm happy with mine. It works just fine. But I do have "real" AR envy whenever I see those pic postings ....
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:09:57 PM EDT
I have a question about this subject. What is stopping a person from modifying an existing lower to these specs. All one would have to do is cut a 20 round mag down and permanently fill the bottom of the mag well. I know several body shop guys that could do this using a variety of fill techniques that could NEVER be undone and would look beautiful. When you can buy lowers for so cheap, there must be a reason this is not happening. Just wondering.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 9:34:15 PM EDT
First of all, it would be elegal to bring in a "normal" stripped lower to CA in order to do the mods and a non LEO sitizen can not buy a stripped lower in PRK.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 10:00:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By buginyourbrain: First of all, it would be elegal to bring in a "normal" stripped lower to CA in order to do the mods and a non LEO sitizen can not buy a stripped lower in PRK.
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Ok, I will modify it here in Nevada and bring the completed rifle with me on my next trip. BTW, I read the letter from Cal DOJ and I see nothing in it that would prevent this. There is nothing different between such a rifle and a typical cal legal SKS.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 10:10:02 PM EDT
Its been awhile since I reviewed the list of thou shalt not haves for CA, but I'm thinking that you still run into problems with the pistol grip and stock configuration? Or can you just run a double depth stock straight back from the receiver section? Might have to adjust the trigger angle too. Hmm, the market demand for these say compared to a mini-14 at the relative costs?
Link Posted: 5/5/2003 5:18:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Originally Posted By buginyourbrain: First of all, it would be elegal to bring in a "normal" stripped lower to CA in order to do the mods and a non LEO sitizen can not buy a stripped lower in PRK.
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Ok, I will modify it here in Nevada and bring the completed rifle with me on my next trip. BTW, I read the letter from Cal DOJ and I see nothing in it that would prevent this. There is nothing different between such a rifle and a typical cal legal SKS.
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Its easy! You fabricate a couple of your designs, submit them ( and $$$) to the CA-DOJ , they will "evaluate" them, send them back with modifcation requirements, you fix them and re-submit them ( more $$$) for further "evaluation". I know the FAB finally got approved after the installation of the rivet in the front of the mag and magwell, and the CA-CAR was "altered" a few times also.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 11:05:01 AM EDT
Man, I'm glad I don't live in the Peoples Republic of California! [:\]
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 11:57:33 AM EDT
What about those pump action ar's from dpms that are CA legal? seem like there would be more conversation about those than ar's with cast or welded up mag wells, at least you could still do mag swaps instead of having to break open to load one at a time.
Link Posted: 5/7/2003 2:44:12 PM EDT
Couldn't you get the Fab 10 and vertical grip and still be legal in Kali. They are both made my Gogogadgets.com aren't they??
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:04:49 PM EDT
FYI,I have a very early single digit serial # Fab10 that has FTF problems.When I called for service I was forwarded to a New company.CMS is no more but the new company says they will honor warranty.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:27:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By notack: by ha All bad news, sorry folks. Our only option is still the [url=www.gogogadgets.net]FAB 10[/url]
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Technically, not correct. DPMS makes a single shot [no mag well] lower that is also legal here. And it's $180 from Impact Guns and direct from DPMS.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 9:28:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By slipjoint: This would explain the seemingly exorbitant prices the FAB-10 costs to Californians who wish to get an AR-type rifle. My FFL says stripped FAB-10 lowers are at $275 (!!!!) now! Given that you can pick up a normal stripped lower from $89.95 somewhere on EE -- for the rest of you not in CA -- it just doesn't seem worth it. No competition for the FAB-10 makers so they can charge whatever the market will bear. I'm happy with mine. It works just fine. But I do have "real" AR envy whenever I see those pic postings ....
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Slipjoint, where can your FFL get the FAB-10s for $275? Red Star wants $350, and I'd love to save $75.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 5:09:30 PM EDT
My last retail purchase was at $299, a 30% increase from my first ones.[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:55:28 AM EDT
I recently saw a FAB10 at the local range, I couldn't help thinking "whats the use?" No offense but I sure am glad I got my ARs when I could. I couldn't imagine shooting one of those FAB10s. I am however interested in a DPMS closed lower, am going to match it up to 50 bmg upper, I'm getting soon.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:15:21 AM EDT
If the ban doesn't expire, I'm thinking about building a gun with a lower like that so that I can have all of the other stuff. Question. Can I just rivet a 10 roung mag into a regular lower, since I live in a state where regular lowers can still be bought. That would satisfy BATFE, wouldn't it? Or do I have to weld the bottom of the well shut as well?
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:36:15 AM EDT
if you live in a non -PRK state, I don't think it has to be a 10 round mag. You could probably make your own w/ a 30 if the BATF said you had an acceptable way of securing the mag.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 9:51:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheLastBoyScout: if you live in a non -PRK state, I don't think it has to be a 10 round mag. You could probably make your own w/ a 30 if the BATF said you had an acceptable way of securing the mag.
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Now YOU have some good ideas! [;)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 10:08:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 10:10:56 AM EDT by FireControlman]
Guys try calling [b]Entreprise Arms[/b] in Irwindale. They had the cheapest price when I was searching for a FAB-10. [url]www.entreprise.com[/url] wooahh --- they want $329 for a lower
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 2:20:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 2:21:13 PM EDT by evilcartman]
Originally Posted By Bladewurk: FYI,I have a very early single digit serial # Fab10 that has FTF problems.When I called for service I was forwarded to a New company.CMS is no more but the new company says they will honor warranty.
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Bladewurk, Thanks for the info. I also have an early production FAB and have had FTF problems. I'll try contacting the new company (Shoeless) and see what they can do for me.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 5:33:20 PM EDT
Here are the "characteristics" to work with - 12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following: (1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. (B) A thumbhole stock. (C) A folding or telescoping stock. (D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher. (E) A flash suppressor. (F) A forward pistol grip. (2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches. So, if it's 30+", and mag cap 10 or less, does not have a detachable magazine, it doesn't fit the characteristics and wouldn't be an AW. First list of no-no's (I got a letter somewhere from the AG office that the Sporter was not an AR-15 series) Assault Weapons NOTE: THIS LIST DOES NOT INCLUDE ASSAULT WEAPONS AS DEFINED BY SENATE BILL 23, STATUTES OF 1999. FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE REFER TO THE ASSAULT WEAPON REGISTRATION AND REGULATION PAGE The following designated semiautomatic firearms are assault weapons: (a) All of the following specified rifles: (1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows: (A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S. (B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S. (C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47. (D) MAADI AK47 and ARM. (2) UZI and Galil. (3) Beretta AR-70. (4) CETME Sporter. (5) Colt AR-15 series. (6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR110 C. (7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter. (8) MAS 223. (9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1 (10) The following MAC types: (A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11. (B) SWD Incorporated M11. (11) SKS with detachable magazine. (12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551. (13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48. (14) Sterling MK-6. (15) Steyer AUG. (16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S. (17) Armalite AR-180. (18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle. (19) Calico M-900. (20) J&R ENG M-68. (21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk and for the updated list go here - http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regagunfaqs.htm#1 Couldn't cut and paste it. this is the list that closed all the loopholes. So theoretically you could build a semi-auto centerfire with a fixed magazine holding 10 or less and import it as it doesn't fit the AW definitions.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 8:25:32 PM EDT
Well...I got the Fab 10 back from the new company,Shoeless Ventures.They installed a new mag with full feed lips and my FTF problems are over!Great service from Shoeless and nice folks,they called me twice to let me know they received it and when they were shipping it back.300 rounds downrange tells me it is fixed.The only thing is now it only holds 9 rounds.....Fab 9? Shoeless didn't even ask for return Shipping cost.If you need service call the old CMS # and it will be forwarded.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 2:31:01 AM EDT
I bought my FAB-10 from Trader Sports in San Leandro last month ($300). I've been buying the rifle incrementaly so I haven't been able to go shoot it yet, however that will change next weekend; the rest of the parts arrive on Tuesday. Shoeless Ventures ([url]www.gogogadgets.net[/url]) has revamped the site, it has more information and the correct phone numbers and an email address. I had a problem with my FAB-10, the hole for the stripper clip guide was partially filled with crud, they were more then generous and immideately fixed the problem and sent it back, no questions asked. They seem like really nice people. The one suggestion I have is to change the rivet from a 1/16" or 3/32", whichever odd size they have, into one that you can pick up at the Home Depot or something (1/8" and above) The smaller rivet broke, probably during one of the shipping processes, and I drilled out the hole to fit a larger rivet - no problem. To subdue any fears about the magazine in the FAB-10, it is NOT a Colt 10-round factory magazine, it is a hacked-off LE/Military 30-round magazine. Replacement is easy, and Shoeless Ventures will fix anything that goes wrong with the magazine.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 3:07:03 AM EDT
What about a bolt action AR15? Wouldn't that side step some of these issues? This is the only way the Brits can own an AR.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 4:36:28 PM EDT
I was wondering the same. The defining characteristic of "assault weapon" is that it is semi-auto, correct? So if you had to manually chamber each round, you can get a receiver that accepts detachable mags?
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:22:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 2:59:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Originally Posted By buginyourbrain: First of all, it would be elegal to bring in a "normal" stripped lower to CA in order to do the mods and a non LEO sitizen can not buy a stripped lower in PRK.
View Quote
Ok, I will modify it here in Nevada and bring the completed rifle with me on my next trip. BTW, I read the letter from Cal DOJ and I see nothing in it that would prevent this. There is nothing different between such a rifle and a typical cal legal SKS.
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If you read the CA laws, it says that a banned weapon cannot be modified to be compliant with the laws. It is banned, period.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 12:41:35 AM EDT
I have contacted CADOJ numerous times on clarifying the following : a) Completing an 80% lower and permanently attached a .22LR dedicated upper on it to make it a .22LR only with detachable mags. b) Completing an 80% lower and weld a 10 round mag to make it .223 or whatever centerfire ammo you want They have repeatedly promise to give an answer but never did. It is interesting because I think they would be more than happy to say "NO" if there is any chance of claim they are illegal configurations. I hope there is enough people to bug them to force them to answer them once and for all.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 12:37:21 PM EDT
We live in a free society and anything which is not strictly prohibited is allowed.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 3:07:21 PM EDT
I sold two fab 10's for 275. Shoeless was a good company to deal with.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 5:49:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BigMac: I sold two fab 10's for 275. Shoeless was a good company to deal with.
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Any time you want to sell another FAB-10 for $275, e-mail me. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 6:01:22 PM EDT
I use the Shoeless Ventures vertical grip (comes with ATF letter) so I can keep my flash suppressor on my POST ban RRA. Kinda funny looking but once you get used to it it works as well as a regular grip.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 6:58:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BigMac: I sold two fab 10's for 275. Shoeless was a good company to deal with.
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Got one of the FAB10 from BigMac. He is also a great family run business to deal with.
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