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Posted: 12/18/2002 2:44:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 2:47:58 PM EDT by mk1iii]
I check this website on Israeli weapons every so often. www.isayeret.com/weapons/overview.htm
They have great pictures of their various AR configurations and I got to thinking how is it we have surplus from all over the world but you don't see Israeli accessories over here much at all besides Orlites. They don't seem to ever use btw. Espeacialy the rifle slings that are very distinctive. I decided to make a copy of one of their slings and think it turned out really nice. Looks right at home on an early SP1 Carbine which looks very similar to the old M16 cut downs used over there. Tell me what you think!


Here's the sling that I'm talking about. Interesting they use 550 cord when they could use anything at all like our super high speed M4 side swivel adapters.



Here's another.

Here's my attempt of recreation. I like it alot. It's just a USGI all purpose strap like used on the 2 qt canteens with the snap hooks removed and a few lengths of 550 cord. The black covers are the same as handle wraps from such things as rifle soft cases.


I want an original if anybody knows where to get some, but this will fit the bill and was about only $5 in the making.

Mark
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 2:57:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 2:58:22 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I just ordered an Israeli M4 rifle sling and got it yesterday right from Israel! It's much better than any USGI sling I have ever seen. It even has a little pouch for hearing protection. The sling was NIW for only $11 ! A great deal ! I see you live in MD, where about? I'm in MD myself and if you have a digital camera we could do a review of my IDF sling if you feel like it? LMK [email]m4_aiming_at_u@ar15.com[/email]
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:01:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 3:12:30 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Go here to get one like I got: [url]http://www.israelmilitary.com/imp/homepage.php[/url] Its under the uniforms section [img]http://www.israelmilitary.com/imp/images/bigimg36284.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:20:54 PM EDT
You know I was just looking at that site the other day and I really like how the Israeli ARs look, real broken in and lots of tape & crap all over the place. No safe queens there. What is the purpose that stuff in those pics that they've got around the handguard (the side closest to the shooter)and on the back of the tele stock? Do they put tape on the mags to make 'em easier to grab out of a pouch?
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 3:22:47 PM EDT by new-arguy]
Hahahaha, we were just joking in the optics forum about how silly their "pagoda tower of optical devices" seems a little silly (see picture 2). Look how high that TAO1 is mounted off the bore line? I understand they do this so they can quickly detatch their day optic (TAO1) and mount a night vision scope. But at what cost? That is so high off the bore getting a realistic zero is impossible.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:38:31 PM EDT
M4_Aiming_at_U Fantastic job on the link. I never once saw one here on this board for sale or by folks posting pics of their rifles and didn't think they were imported. Thanks, Mark
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:41:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 3:44:33 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By mk1iii: M4_Aiming_at_U, Fantastic job on the link. I never once saw one here on this board for sale or by folks posting pics of their rifles and didn't think they were imported. Thanks, Mark Yeah, the fit function and feel of that sling is great. You should check one out. I know of another site that has other style IDF slings you can order, but I'm at work and dont have the web addy. When I get home later tonight I will dig it up for you. Like Isaid, if you want to try mine out before you decide to order one, your more than welcome too.
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Yeah, the fit function and feel of that sling is great. You should check one out. I know of another site that has other style IDF slings you can order, but Im at work and dont have the web addy. When I get home later tonight I will dig it up for you. Like I said, if you want to try mine out before you decide to order one(they are much much more different than any USGI sling), your more than welcome too.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:57:37 PM EDT
M4_Aiming_at_U Super nice offer of you to let me try it out. I'm getting one no doubt about it. I'll email ya off line. Thanks, Mark
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:28:22 PM EDT
I'm looking at the cool pix of the rifles and slings and it just slapped me in the face....how do they get those rifles to work with the barrel cut so short.???!!!?? With a semi, with enough gas volume and duration of the powder when it ignites, they seem to be o.k...but on a full-auto, you are asking for trouble big time. The original design called for a 20" barrel with a specific size hole to tap gasses to direct to the carrier. Even the 16" Colts worked because the bbl length and the orifice size were at the same spec/location as the 20", so it still worked. I have seen many, many short AR's fail to function properly with shorter bbls on full auto because it messes up the timing so bad. Short bbl = less gas volume and less duration of the firing impulse. so you get the famous "bang, bang, click". Do you remember seeing those big cans and long flash supperssors on earlier military and civilan AR's..? That wasn't for the suppression or to be pretty, it was to add barrel length, and thereby lengthening the gas volume and duration of the firing impulse. Most guys try to fix the timing by bending and grinding internal parts, but that ain't it. I wonder how the Isrealis get their AR's to function like this..?? OOps, this thread is about a sling isn't it.. so solly
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 5:55:51 PM EDT
What's with the stuff(tape?) wrapped between the handgaurd and the carry handle? Why is it there?
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 8:23:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By greco: I'm looking at the cool pix of the rifles and slings and it just slapped me in the face....how do they get those rifles to work with the barrel cut so short.???!!!??
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A Pigtail used with a big gas port usually solves cycling problems.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 8:31:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2002 8:32:19 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Here is a better pic of the one I have; [img]http://www.zahal.org/belts/sling05green.jpg[/img] This place has Black ones but they are a little more pricey and a little slower on shipping. [url]http://www.zahal.org/belts/p2.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 12:27:30 AM EDT
M4- Which of the two linked ones do you like better? Oz
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 3:14:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ozmodiar: M4- Which of the two linked ones do you like better? Oz
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The two sling pics that I have posted are the same slings, just the first one is shown with the para cord and the second pic is a more detailed one. Of all the IDF slings, that one I feel is much better. It has the tactical "quick" release, ear plug pouch and heavy duty hooks at each end that are covered with a tough canvas to keep them from getting hung up on small brush and stuff. It is also made from the same material as an automobile seatbelt, so you know no matter how hard of a beating you give it it is not going to give out on you. Also, since the sling is wider than most other slings out there on the market, it is much more comfortable to wear your AR fully loaded longer. Hopefully I will be able to borrow a friends Digital camera next week and I can take some better pics of that sling. BTW: I just woke up 2 minutes ago, so I'm sorry if this post sounds like gibberish [|)]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:46:37 AM EDT
I may be a little overly cautious, but I don't think I'd want my fighting rifle to be slung from my iron sights. -Ben
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:56:55 AM EDT
Yes that is overly cautious. It wont hurt anything and has been proven by militarys all over the world to hold up in rough conditions.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 9:06:22 AM EDT
This thread is the final push needed to get me to order an IDF sling. Done a couple minutes ago it's MY holiday present. [img]http://www.zahal.org/belts/sling05green.jpg[/img] Should be able to figure out how they paracord the hooks. My personal M4 has a silent sling tied around the back of the front sight post. Besides carry it's used for hasty as well as tight sling and it's damn sure faster to rig tight than a 1917. Never caused a problem.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 9:30:13 AM EDT
Guys I know somethings they do look might look strange, let's not forget that they must work, since this boys and girls go to WAR everyday.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 10:42:44 AM EDT
So does it have clips or do you use paracord to attach to front sight post? Or do you put the paracord in between the post and the clip to keep the clip from scratching the post? And how does it attach to the telestock? I'm interested in getting a sling like this to replace the one I have now. It's just hooked up to the front sling swivel like a regular sling, and then on the top of the telestock.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 11:14:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BoWilliams: What's with the stuff(tape?) wrapped between the handgaurd and the carry handle? Why is it there?
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Okay this is just a guess, but look very closely. It looks like the thing around the handguard has a cord that is taped to the magazines. So maybe it is so they don't lose the magazine when they eject it. This makes sense for two reasons. First you wouldn't want to drop your mag in the middle of urban environment and give supplies to the enemy. And number two it saves money on magazines if you are loosing them all the time. This fits the "stereotypical Jewish" thriftiness (this is not meant in anyway to be a negative comment). Could I be right??? Now someone that has a clue tell us what it's really for.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 1:02:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By new-arguy: Hahahaha, we were just joking in the optics forum about how silly their "pagoda tower of optical devices" seems a little silly (see picture 2). Look how high that TAO1 is mounted off the bore line? I understand they do this so they can quickly detatch their day optic (TAO1) and mount a night vision scope. But at what cost? That is so high off the bore getting a realistic zero is impossible.
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Remember, in military combat, they are not going for a precision zero. As long as you can hit a man size target fairly COM from 0 to a given range, thats all thats needed. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 2:13:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: So does it have clips or do you use paracord to attach to front sight post? Or do you put the paracord in between the post and the clip to keep the clip from scratching the post? And how does it attach to the telestock? I'm interested in getting a sling like this to replace the one I have now. It's just hooked up to the front sling swivel like a regular sling, and then on the top of the telestock.
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Well, you have a few options. The strap itself on each end beneath clip covers are connected to a clip on each end, Then there is para cord tied on to both clips. What I did was removed the Para-cord from the front clip and attach a small black cara beaner to the front sling swivel on my M4. Then I ties the para-cords around the back slot in my RRA 6 position stock. Hopefully I will be able to get some pics up of this rig whenever I find someone with a digital camera to let me take pics.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 5:43:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Hopefully I will be able to get some pics up of this rig whenever I find someone with a digital camera to let me take pics.
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Put 'em up so we can see the rig. Already I'm thinking how to do the job and it doesn't want to end up looking like a hippie basket weaving project.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 5:54:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2002 6:04:36 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By Arock: Put 'em up so we can see the rig. Already I'm thinking how to do the job and it doesn't want to end up looking like a hippie basket weaving project.
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Yeah, the Para-Cord was hard to figure out. I highly recommened using a small carabeaner for the front sling swivel instead of wrapping cord around the front sight post. That para cord is mighty abrasive and I'm sure it can wear the finish off of your sight post and surrounding parts without any perks accept for having that real IDF look. Which one did you order Arock? [b]If there are any MD'ers or DE'ers in the Annapolis/Baltimore or Newark Areas and wants to help me out with taking pics of this, let me know.[/b]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:06:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2002 6:11:26 PM EDT by MP5_guy]
Originally Posted By mk1iii: They have great pictures of their various AR configurations and I got to thinking how is it we have surplus from all over the world but you don't see Israeli accessories over here much at all besides Orlites. They don't seem to ever use btw.
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[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=2226[/img] You might want to take a closer look at this picture you posted. That mag looks a lot like an Orlite to me.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:19:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MP5_guy: You might want to take a closer look at this picture you posted. That mag looks a lot like an Orlite to me.
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I beg to differ. It just looks like the mag is taped at the bottom and then some sort of black cloth under the magwell.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:27:53 PM EDT
The magazine is GI. Orlites have a very large conspicuous detachable baseplate and an overtravel ridge that meets up at the mag well. Additional pictures of this soldier and gun on the Isayeret website show two GI mags in a spring steel Israeli dual mag clip, wrapped heavily in both black and OD tape. Orlites wont fit the dual clamp. They havent seen much use for years. The last pics Ive seen of them heavily issued were during the invasion of Lebanon in '82. They are too fragile for heavy field use.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:35:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Which one did you order Arock?
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Same as you. That's why I copied your pic to my response and why I wanna see how you did yours. BTW the Zahal site has the best selection of IDF slings I've seen. C'ya
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:24:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2002 7:46:07 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By Arock:
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Which one did you order Arock?
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Same as you. That's why I copied your pic to my response and why I wanna see how you did yours. BTW the Zahal site has the best selection of IDF slings I've seen. C'ya
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Thats good, Im sure you will be happy with it! If you find out you want or need one of those small carabeaner like you see in this pic of my OLD Sling: [url]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/4d430d2a/bc/Other+MISC./__hr_M4A3_DetachedHandel.jpg?bcj0pA.AUSZWoZVA[/url] Let me know and I will send you one in either green or black.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:39:28 PM EDT
To each his own but you have gone from a top sling position that allows fast carry across the chest to a bottom sling position that does not allow fast carry. It is not the same thing and (by your own words) was done for cosmetic reasons. I always tie my slings off with paracord on the front sight base. This lets me hang the rifle by my neck or over my right shoulder with it hanging across my chest. Para cord does not take off finish in my experience. Bob
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:44:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15forfun: you have gone from a top sling position that allows fast carry across the chest to a bottom sling position that does not allow fast carry. Bob
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Well, no not really. The pic above is an old sling that really wasnt much use. The IDF sling is "Top Sling Position" even while using the stock sling swivel. Hopefully I will get some pics taken of this thing to clarify.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:13:46 PM EDT
As far as the tape near the front of the mag well, it does look like they have the magazines attached to the rifle to retain the mag. Don't understand why, unless they can rip it off quick later..
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 3:08:59 AM EDT
MP5 Guy- I almost felt like eating my words there for a moment too. It does look alot like an Orlite doesn't it. To the question as to why they wrap so much on their rifles. It's on their stocks, mags, handguards, & slings. I would have to say there are several reasons. First, it's hot as balls over there I would guess and black rifles might get alittle warm. Maybe the cloth helps. Sound suppression of rattles and clanking may be it too. Like on the rifle slings and why they use para cord so much. And what about sweaty hands and keeping sand out of the mag bases is reason for so many magazine modifications? All guesses, but for people who fight almost every day they seem to be all go and very little show. That's why I like it so much. Mark
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 5:55:20 AM EDT
Ooops.... my bad on the pic. Now that *I* have taken a closer look, I see that it kind of looks like the para cord from the handguard is attached to the black cloth on the mag. Weird setup....
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 6:17:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 8:02:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2002 8:09:06 AM EDT by Arock]
Originally Posted By TheRicker: Hey, guys. Check it out. [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=19&t=145744&page=1[/url]
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Uri, the owner of ZAHAL is offering AR15.com members a 10 percent discount on their merchandise. There's a lot of good products on his site. Check ZAHAL's stuff out. [url]www.zahal.org[/url] [url]www.zahal.org/belts/p2.htm[/url] [img]http://www.zahal.org/topleftsmall.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 9:32:59 AM EDT
I coppied the first pic to photoed and enlarged it 400 %, and it has the heavy ridge on bottom and the reenforcing ribs around the mag. It is an Orlite pretty definately. The mags in the second pic are clearly GI alum.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 10:26:24 AM EDT
I checked [url]http://www.isayeret.com[/url] and a lot of their AR's have the whole string-thing. where they seem to have the mag connected to the gun. Especially here: [url]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/car15/car15.htm[/url] Not sure what that's all about. Maybe a safety thing? Keep the mag on the grip or the handguard, but they're close if the SHTF? Where's our resident Israeli commando?
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:02:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NORTEXED: I coppied the first pic to photoed and enlarged it 400 %, and it has the heavy ridge on bottom and the reenforcing ribs around the mag. It is an Orlite pretty definately. The mags in the second pic are clearly GI alum.
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I'm gonna have to go with Orlite on the first pic as well. If you brighten the pic up, and enlarge, you can see the swell of the baseplate. Of course, it is not completely verifiable, but sure looks like it to me. Maybe that's why it is all taped up like that - he is hoping it will keep it from breaking! [:O]
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:43:18 AM EDT
The black cloth is ELASTIC. The mag is a GI wrapped with OD friction tape. The tape provides better gription for the elastic. [img]www.members.aol.com/ericsorenson/IDF.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 2:51:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate: The black cloth is ELASTIC. The mag is a GI wrapped with OD friction tape. The tape provides better gription for the elastic. [url]www.members.aol.com/ericsorenson/IDF.jpg[/url]
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Im gonna have to agree. If you look real close between the mag well on the lower and the black elastic. you can see the ribs in the USGI mag. and I know that Orlite dont have them!
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 3:07:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: If you look real close between the mag well on the lower and the black elastic. you can see the ribs in the USGI mag. and I know that Orlite dont have them!
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Ding ding ding. We have a winner. USGI it is.... I wish I would have seen that.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 3:13:29 PM EDT
Try these folks and mention AR15.com for a freebie: insignia@dotan.net
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 3:40:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2002 4:05:37 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Definetly GI. Below are two GI mags in an Israeli dual clamp. Theres no way the Orlites fit in the clamp. Also, like it was pointed out, the mags in the picture have the GI reinforcing ribs that Orlites don't, and the overtravel ridge thats found on Orlites isnt in the pic. They havent issued them for years for the same reasons most people dont like them. Too fragile. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=2451[/img] I got a couple of the Israeli dual clamps from Gun Parts Corp for $5. They work better than any of the others out there IMHO. The only downside is one of the reasons you see tape on them in Israeli use. They are made out of spring steel and if you slap the magazine home hard several times, it will start to work out of the clamp. I've never had it come out any thing past maybe 1/4", but I guess its good insurance. They are a lot trimmer than the Mag-Cinch holders, and no screws to work loose or over tighten. For $5, what the hell? OK, now the whole elastic band, para cord answer: [b]off-duty and off the line carry[/b] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=2454[/img] Off duty Israeli soldiers often carry their rifle with them. For what Im assuming are safety reasons, they remain unloaded. The elastic is often seen as in the pic, holding the mag to the pistol grip, with the paracord attaching it to the rifle. Usually, you only see them strolling through town with the one magazine thats attached to the gun, so its serving several purposes. The gun is unloaded, yet the ammo is attached to the gun outside the mag well, and the paracord keeps it from being separated from the gun. Keep in mind, most of the pics on the Isayeret website are from the Palestine uprising, mainly a civilian police action for the military, so you dont see this modification often with troops involved in combat operations.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 5:34:00 PM EDT
hey gents, speaking of slings, once upon a time i ended up at a (vendor or distributor) website which had very nice pictorials/diagrams of various sling configurations -- and how they hung your AR in the ready/not-so-ready positions. just as importantly, it demonstrated why you would want a sling that dropped the AR out of the way and allowed hurried access to your sidearm. anyone know this site? -- it was so very informative of all the various AR sling options but for the life of me i can't turn it back up.... thanks, the ar-jedi
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:05:43 PM EDT
Lumpy to you have a link to the location of those magazine clamps?
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:10:52 PM EDT
Is it just me or are you guys fascinated with short barrel M16/M4/AR15?
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:51:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AntiCrime: Lumpy to you have a link to the location of those magazine clamps?
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DPMS sells them for $5 ea. I have a few and they are great.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 7:03:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AntiCrime: Lumpy to you have a link to the location of those magazine clamps?
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[url]http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=227080&chrSuperSKU=[/url]
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 6:47:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-jedi: hey gents, speaking of slings, once upon a time i ended up at a (vendor or distributor) website which had very nice pictorials/diagrams of various sling configurations
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Best one I've ever found is [url]http://www.cqbsolutions.com/carryoptions.htm[/url]. I like the Israeli slings a lot, but I'll probably buy one of CQB's slings as a way of saying thank you for the detailed instructions on their site.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 6:56:38 AM EDT
Lumpy: Thank you.
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