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Posted: 12/14/2002 12:41:29 PM EDT
I would like to know what everyone thinks of the movie Black Hawk Down. Weapons, realizm, and every aspect of the movie.

I personally think its a great movie. Havent read the book yet but plan to. I think i have seen it 8 times. No matter what is said in this thread i would like everyone to acknoledge what balls of steel all these guys have, and anyone who enlists to serve our country.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 1:17:52 PM EDT
Great movie, mostly factual. Of course all of our men in uniform are heroes, and the Somalia campaign was no different. Nevermind the fact that that f%^ker Clinton had no business sending our troops anywhere, especially Somalia. But that's another soapbox. I know historically the film is fairly accurate, but don't take my word for it. Check out the original Philadelphia Inquirer documentary on the subject: [url]http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 1:33:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 2:46:26 PM EDT
from the link above, on this page: http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/dec07/default07.asp there is the following paragraph: "Even his ammunition angered him. Howe was firing the Army's new 5.56mm green tip round. It had a tungsten carbide penetrator at the tip that could punch holes in metal. But that penetrating power meant his rounds were passing right through his targets. The rounds made small, clean holes in the Somalian gunmen, and unless they hit the head or spine the men didn't go down. Howe felt that he had to hit each man five or six times just to get his attention." green tip = AP? any comments on the "five or six times just to get his attention"? ar-jedi
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 2:50:08 PM EDT
Green Tip = 62gr M885
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 3:38:08 PM EDT
I like the 2 guy's who kinda get left behind on that one street. When they finally realize they are alone, it is kinda scary for them and you find yourself pulling for them. I'm glad they made it out.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 3:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2002 3:57:25 PM EDT by arizcowboy]
A needless waste of American soldier's lives due to the ineptness of their superiors up the chain of command to and including President Klinton.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 3:54:23 PM EDT
The soldier with the M60, the one who was deafened, was named Sean Nelson. A couple of months ago I bought an upper from a member here, and after it had arrived he sent me an email to tell me that it once belonged to Nelson. He bowflaged it and put M4 feed ramp cuts into it. Kinda cool.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 4:12:31 PM EDT
i agree with the waste of our troops. Its a damn shame those higher up dont think the same way. Should have just let them starve. My personal favorate character is "Hoot" What a bad ass he is!!! I heard he is based on a few different guys. Anyone happen to know who these guys are?
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 4:41:45 PM EDT
Agree, good movie although somewhat depressing in that it was such a waste of American soldiers lives. The US Army has men of sand in the truest sence of the word. What a tragic life for the masses that live in Samila, I believe this continues yet today. This movie did more to stir my desire to obtain a AR-15 type rifle than any other single event. I now own two such weapons and I really like this platform for a firearm. Just this morning I picked up my second AR-15, which is a new Bushmaster V-Match 20" barrel and attached a Leuplod CQ/T scope. Also installed a JP Enterprises trigger that is really clean and releases at 2.5 lbs +/-. I'll give it a test drive Sunday with hopes of having a top shelf coyote gun for this winter.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 4:50:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2002 4:51:17 PM EDT by Blaster3094]
This was added by Hollywood.
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: I like the 2 guy's who kinda get left behind on that one street. When they finally realize they are alone, it is kinda scary for them and you find yourself pulling for them. I'm glad they made it out.
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Over all I think the movie did a great job staying true to the book. The author, Mark Bowden, made sure everything he put on paper was accurate.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 5:04:14 PM EDT
I think that the Idiot's in washington made a big mistake removing the marines way to soon. if I even thought of an attempt at doing a raid I would not trust any other country, I would have kept the marines on standby, they needed the firepower that washington denied them. the reason only 19 died instead of 100 is because these guy's were well trained.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 5:33:17 PM EDT
The Rangers and Special Forces of "Blackhawk Down" fame fought and died bravely. They were true professionals that volunteered for military duty and did not fold under pressure. The political leadership that put them in harms way, however, were a sorry bunch of liberals who had no clue of what it meant to be surrounded and under fire. Bill Clinton and his defense secretary, Les Aspin, believed it would seem too "war-like" to deploy tanks to Somalia. So when the shit hit the fan the sole remaining super power in the world had to beg a third world nation (Pakistan) for armor to rescue our troops. Clinton and Aspin's actions were inexcusable to all except the knuckleheads that elected Clinton (twice!) Aspin resigned in disgrace not long after the debacle. Bill Clinton went on to stain Monica's dress, get impeached, and finish his presidency smelling like a rose. Rangers and Special Forces are still the best trained soldiers in the world. In Somalia, it took all their skill and fortitude to survive in spite of their incompetent political leaders. There is no substitute for overwhelming force. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 7:46:21 PM EDT
It was upsetting ,and got me real f#cking pist off.I will not watch it again ,I think.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 8:11:32 PM EDT
The worst part was that the AC-130 gunships left the day before and were even decided against using at all by the clowns in Washington. The fire power of these planes would have kept the large masses far away from our men.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 8:40:23 PM EDT
If you liked the movie you will absolutely love the book. I read it for a project in my English AP class. I read it in the 3-4 days, then started on it again the same day. It's an amazing book. I love how they made sure to include how Stebbins the freshest guy in the Task Force was actually presumed dead about 3 times during the ordeal. I love it when he is thrown by an RPG blast, gets up running screaming "FUCK THIS!" They also left out some of the comedic parts. A lot of the things that were said would of been great in the movie "God loved that Donkey", "God really does love medics" "As your professional medical advisor it's my responsibilty to inform you that drugs and firearms don't mix" I have a few gripes about the movie, they should of included more on the hangar life and the previous missions that were uneventful. I wish they would of made it longer to accomadate for the above^^ They also cramped a lot of things together. You don't see a lot of stuff that actually happened. About "Hoot" he is by far the best character in the movie. He is also a real "Operator" that was actually there. Not sure what other soldiers he was supposed to represent. "They won't understand, it's about the man next to you...that's it...that's all it is" He's got some great lines in the movie Not trying to be a prick but according to the "Forum Conduct Code" this belongs in the General Forum. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=1[/url], you should post it here as well probably get more replies.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 9:22:34 PM EDT
sorry i just posted it there instead.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 9:25:08 PM EDT
Your complaints about the "clowns in Washington" are among the oldest gripes known to professional soldiers. Unlike other nations, however, ours is of a civilian government and the military answers to our elected officals. War is an extension of politics, and as such the soldiers who fight our wars will always be left sucking hind tit when the dust settles. Decisions like pulling the Marines out, leaving armor at home, or standing down the AC130s are just typical examples of the worst kind of civilian generaling. Vietnam was the same story with the northern cities, like Hanoi, being off-limits to our bombers. IMHO, if all else fails, you send in the troops and let the generals run the war.
Link Posted: 12/14/2002 11:43:55 PM EDT
I wasn't there, so I can't account for historical facts, but based on what I heard and read, it seems to be pretty good...both the book and the movie. The movie has more hollywood and some facts get messed up in the consideration of keeping the story down to a reasonable "bladder control" time limit. One thought on the Marines...a possible reason that no move was ever made against them as a whole would probably have a great deal to do with Aidid's son being a US Marine deployed there. Clinton was one of the absolute worst Commander in Chiefs this country has ever had. 110% of the blame is on his shoulders and what really pisses me off is that he doesn't give a shit. He viewed this whole thing as a political hurdle, no more. Anyway, enough blaming, those men did what they were trained to do and went above and beyond. They deserve to be remembered and I'm glad Mark Bowden wrote the book and I'm even more delighted that it was adapted to a successful movie and Hollywood kept their noses out of it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 9:53:16 AM EDT
I think Blackhawk down will easily become a classic among greats such as apocolypse now and full metal jacket. I thought the cast was great and I really liked the idea that they showed alot of the armys "secret" delta force soldiers. these guys are badass and alot of people arent aware of their existence. I have seen this movie about 6 times and it angers me just as much every time I watch it. I think it definitely puts alot of people over the racist edge for the length of the movie. as sick as this may seem, I wish the soldier would have wasted the little kid who missed him and shot his father. if the little bastard had his way, the soldier would be dead. besides.. who is to say the kid didnt resume shooting american soldiers after the soldier left him? . he would definitely be a little more pissed at that point. any feedback on this? I would like to know if I am the only one with this view.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 10:38:42 AM EDT
everyone i know would have shot the damn kid too. Without a second thought.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:03:01 PM EDT
I think the best part of that operation was when the 2 Delta guys volunteered to protect the downed Blackhawk pilot. It takes a great man to do something like that, something Klinton would never do.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:13:18 PM EDT
I don't know if I would have been able to shoot a crying boy hunched over his dying father. Then again, that's what makes us different than alot of the other people in the world, we value life and that was used as a weapon against us on more than one occassion by those who don't care. In the book there were testimonies of Samali men firing in the prone position with women and children sitting on his back knowing full well that we wouldn't shoot at an unarmed child or woman. I think they were trying to emphasize our morals as Americans in that scene...although to the Samali's who watched this movie whould have viewed that act as a weakness, where we view it as mercy. To be honest though, there really isn't a wrong answer to that situation. Any soldier (or Marine for you touchy Jarheads out there) would be fully justified going either way. Who knows, in the heat of the moment, I may have very well shot the boy...no one really knows until it actually happens.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:15:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cozmacozmy: I think the best part of that operation was when the 2 Delta guys volunteered to protect the downed Blackhawk pilot. It takes a great man to do something like that, something Klinton would never do.
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Whadaya mean?! Clinton would have sent 2 D-Boy volunteers into a no-win situation anyday of the week, no hesitation at all. Wait...or did you mean...
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:32:10 PM EDT
If AR15.com had to have a signature movie it would have to be Black Hawk Down. Excellent flick. The soldiers were heroes. The politicians were/are dickheads. The Somolians were ruthless. And the weapons were very accurate and realistic. My M4 with Aimpoint was bought due largely to Black Hawk Down.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 1:56:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Colt_AR15_A2: as sick as this may seem, I wish the soldier would have wasted the little kid who missed him and shot his father. if the little bastard had his way, the soldier would be dead. besides.. who is to say the kid didnt resume shooting american soldiers after the soldier left him? . he would definitely be a little more pissed at that point. any feedback on this? I would like to know if I am the only one with this view.
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I'd of shot that little fucker. I don't think it is sick at all. I always thought that was hollywood that the soldier didn't shoot that little pos.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 2:01:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInf:
Originally Posted By Cozmacozmy: I think the best part of that operation was when the 2 Delta guys volunteered to protect the downed Blackhawk pilot. It takes a great man to do something like that, something Klinton would never do.
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Whadaya mean?! Clinton would have sent 2 D-Boy volunteers into a no-win situation anyday of the week, no hesitation at all. Wait...or did you mean...
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I meant that Clinton would never have volunteered to protect a down pilot that was about to get surrounded by the enemy
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 2:47:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blisters: Your complaints about the "clowns in Washington" are among the oldest gripes known to professional soldiers. Unlike other nations, however, ours is of a civilian government and the military answers to our elected officals. War is an extension of politics, and as such the soldiers who fight our wars will always be left sucking hind tit when the dust settles. Decisions like pulling the Marines out, leaving armor at home, or standing down the AC130s are just typical examples of the worst kind of civilian generaling. Vietnam was the same story with the northern cities, like Hanoi, being off-limits to our bombers. IMHO, if all else fails, you send in the troops and let the generals run the war.
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Understand that I'm not in the military, however, when I talked about this movie to my father he made these kinds of "civilian generalizations" and I agree, but then again, my father was a in the military before Vietnam started and went along to become a Green Beret for many years (transferred to the Air Force just prior to 1990 due to some injuries). He was in the Gulf War and retired in the mid-90s. Politics gets our men and women killed everyday, and those who make these decisions to send troops often have no experience at all with military matters or foreign policy. I'm not opposed to military action when it's necessary, but it's often poorly executed.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 6:31:24 PM EDT
Since they tried to make it as real as possible, I would have liked to seen the soldiers in the movie stack up bodies for cover. I thought it was a great flik..
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:23:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _YoYo_: Since they tried to make it as real as possible, I would have liked to seen the soldiers in the movie stack up bodies for cover.
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I dont think it was possible. those little bastards were just too damn skinny, it would have taken too much time to try to get them to amount to anything other than shit. besides, I dont think you can stack shit that high.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 6:52:31 AM EDT
It wouldn't have been possible anyway, keep in mind that most of them were running the whole time, and it wasn't until nighttime that they were able to get shelter in a house. Dead somalis were scattered everywhere, and the are to defend was too large. Stacking bodies would have been impractical, not to mention utterly useless. In the movie the GI didn't shoot the kid, in the book (real life) kids and women were getting mowed down just fine. If there's somebody trying/helping to kill you, you forget about gender and age, and just try to survive.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:00:05 AM EDT
ar-jedi: That damn passage in the book has been quoted so many times as "proof" that M855 doesn't work that a lot of people have taken it as gospel. I don't the link right now, but the Maryland AR shooters have put an extremely fine debunker to that myth. To summarize: only ONE guys (Howe) complained about the effect of M855 (which is NOT tungsten cored as described in the book). He was shooting a short barreled CAR-15, which severely limits the range of M855. All the Rangers with their full-size A2 were dropping the somalies just fine with the M855. The book is quite clear in that regard, but it's that damned quote that seems to stick in everybodie's minds...and seem to forget that the single biggest failure to stop ocurred with an M60 (had to shoot an old guy over two dozen times to stop him).
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 7:12:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInf:
Originally Posted By Cozmacozmy: Whadaya mean?! Clinton would have sent 2 D-Boy volunteers into a no-win situation anyday of the week, no hesitation at all. Wait...or did you mean...
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I meant that Clinton would never have volunteered to protect a down pilot that was about to get surrounded by the enemy
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Yep, I knew what you meant...just couldn't pass up the chance to be a smart ass and make fun of Clinton. I doubt Clinton would even risk his life to save his family, let alone a friend. The Delta Snipers earned the MOH!
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 8:44:58 AM EDT
An associate of mine was a Gunny Sergeant with the Marines in Somalia. Early on the Marines recieved ROE not to fire unless fired upon, and to keep weapons unloaded until told to load them. My friend was not up for that kind of BS, and told all of his squad to load their weapons. Shortly thereafter a hoard skinnies came at them, women and children among them, and he ordered his Marines to open fire. In the aftermath, since women and children were among the dead, it was determined that, although the Marines fired in self-defense, he had violated ROE by loading those weapons. He was court-martialed and booted out with an honorable discharge. He kept his honorable because the Colonel overseeing the court-martial took his 22 years of exemplary service into consideration. He was lucky.
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 9:30:29 AM EDT
gotta love Hoot the war junkie
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 9:42:54 AM EDT
This is MY SAFETY RIGHT HERE!!!!! [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=263[/img]
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 6:09:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-jedi: "Even his ammunition angered him. Howe was firing the Army's new 5.56mm green tip round. It had a tungsten carbide penetrator at the tip that could punch holes in metal. But that penetrating power meant his rounds were passing right through his targets. The rounds made small, clean holes in the Somalian gunmen, and unless they hit the head or spine the men didn't go down. Howe felt that he had to hit each man five or six times just to get his attention." green tip = AP? any comments on the "five or six times just to get his attention"? ar-jedi
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Yeah did you READ the book? They guy was shooting at people with his carbine 2 blocks away!! Well outside the fragmentation range of M855. BTW this is the only real grip in the whole book about 5.56 - all the rest of the 5.56 comments were positive. I take it you haven't read this yet: [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/bhdweaponreferences.msnw[/url]
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 11:13:57 AM EDT
Another movie you'all might find interesting is Bravo Two Zero. It's kinda hard to find but worth the effort. The star is the guy in Lord of the Rings who gets the arrows at the end. It's a true story of a british SAS squad in Desert Storm. There are some good action scenes that display realistic tactics...
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 4:24:49 PM EDT
It was the movie 'We were soldiers', starring Mel Gibson, that made me want to learn to fire my AR from the hip.... in the movie a VC soldier was charging Col. Moore, and he fired his M16 from the hip & 'dimpled' his forehead quite nicely. It was just a movie - not 1965 Vietnam, but it was COOL!
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 7:53:49 PM EDT
thejokker, the movie "bravo two zero" is the screen version of the book by the same name, authored by andy mcnab. i thought the book was great -- a very compelling (and scary-true) story of what it really means to be out alone in a place far from home with a lot of BG's. basically the book recounts mcnab's foray into iraq during desert storm as part of a british SAS recon/"scud killer" team. as usual the best laid plans went to shite and the unit was forced into a run-and-gun over/through/around a lot of iraqi territory. not to spoil the book but mcnab and one of his mates ended up in an iraqi military anti-hospitality suite. it didn't work out so great for others in his squad. mcnab writes well, the prose is very good and down-to-earth, if you can put up with a lot of british-ism's (e.g. "so then we got a brew on" == had tea). he's a headstrong fellow but on the flip side he's been through some SHTF stuff that i hope to never have to experience. while you are at it, you may want to pick up mcnab's "immediate action". all of us who ponder what it would take to make the regiment find out in the early chapters what it does take -- twice. yep, he went through SAS "selection" TWICE. talk about a fighter. one tough MF, carrying a 50lb bergen and busting his butt through miles of deep snow. later in the book, he walks you through his SAS jungle training exercises (incl some funny stuff involving using too much C4 as part of a tree clearing op). finally, andy is assigned to a "drug traffic interdiction" team in south america, and this job almost ends his life -- one of the belize "locals" assigned to work with his SAS team has an AD while they are up close recon'ing around the BG's camp. of course that led to a lot of untimely shooting going on. you won't find too much weapons/techie stuff in mcnab's books. he stresses mental strength and perserverance above all. there are only a couple of pages devoted to "the kit", including the GPMG he used during ireland duty, FN FAL, various MP5's, and of course the M16/M203 he carried in iraq. regarding the M16, he was cavalier, saying something along the lines of "the american m16 is a good weapon, good enough for the SAS to select over the SA80. i don't really care too much about the technical stuff -- the most important aspect of a weapon is that it fires when you want it to, and continues to do so for as long as you have ammo." the ar-jedi
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:58:29 PM EDT
I really like the movie BHD, but, as usual, the book is better. I have seen the movie several times, but I just read the book for the first time. After reading the book, you will find some Hollywood inaccuracies with the movie. The book also gives you an even more graphic sense of the desperate situation on the ground. There have been several threads about BHD on this forum. In one that I read, another member stongly urged those interested to go read the book. I almost didn't since I had seen the movie, but I am VERY glad I did. If you start reading the book, you will not be disappointed.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:54:26 AM EDT
ar-jedi, Both the Mcnabb books were great reads, he has even written a couple of fictions that aren't too bad. I had no idea that Bravo -Two Zero had been made into a movie, when was it released? I will sure have to try to find it. any suggestions?
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 5:22:16 AM EDT
i found the movie at amazon.com after reading about it in SOF. the thing about the movie is that they intended to make it as realistic as possible with regard to squad tactics: no running around shooting from the hip w/full auto blazing...
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 8:36:46 AM EDT
I'm going to get that book by Andy McNabb; I read a couple of pages on Amazon and it sounds damned interesting. Thanks for the recommend!
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 6:56:04 PM EDT
I was with the 1/75th from 76 to 78. I rented BHD but couldn't bring myself to put it in the vcr.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:49:21 PM EDT
I have read both Bravo 20 and immediate action several times, they are both great books. I would like to suggest the book "The One That Got Away" written by Chris Ryan he was the only member of Bravo 20 that escaped. It's a great read and puts a different spin on Mcnabs story. Also read "SOG" by John Plaster, a truly great book about men with more balls than most of us can dream of having.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 5:22:04 AM EDT
Ranger 689, Thanks for the recommendation on "The One that got Away" I am always looking for a new interesting read. I will second the recommendation on "SOG", that one is a definite must read.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:18:02 AM EDT
Hello everyone! I'm a new user to this board so please go easy on me! I read both the book and saw the movie and was overall impressed. I was sad to see Randy Shughart die since he carried an M14, I have a soft spot for my civilian version. Did anyone else notice the blanks sticking out from Nelson's M60? I know it was done for safety reasons but you would think the editors would've caught that and used dummy rounds for that particular shot when Nelson and Twombly were alone. William Fichtner's character "Sanderson" unfortunately died in a mortar attack the next day. It pisses me off that he survived The 'Mog for 14 hours just to get taken out by a a lucky mortar round. All in all it was a good movie, of course some finer points were taken out but that's to be expected from a book to movie adaptation. I tried to rent Bravo Two Zero but it was checked out. Long first post guys, happy holidays!
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 10:07:19 AM EDT
Welcome Phish! [:)]
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 11:28:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thejokker: Another movie you'all might find interesting is Bravo Two Zero. It's kinda hard to find but worth the effort. The star is the guy in Lord of the Rings who gets the arrows at the end. It's a true story of a british SAS squad in Desert Storm. There are some good action scenes that display realistic tactics...
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Its funny because my wife rented that movie a few months back and I saw that it was a british movie so I never popped it in the VCR. I have always had a lack of respect for the british military due to the fact that they prefer to sit around sipping tea while yanks get their asses shot off. After reading the posts, I wish I had given the movie a chance. It may have changed my outlook on the British military. But it will never change the fact that the USA has the BEST Military in the world.
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