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Posted: 11/29/2002 7:03:45 AM EDT
No flame intended.

I will be the first to admit that I have little expearance in metal working, CNC, and forging. However There are 2 main things that drive up the cost on a CNC milled piece such as the SIR.

1- Cost of material. I have not handled one of the units but I would assume (correct me if im wrong) that they are made out of a steel alloy. It also looks like they are Parked or hard anodized. IMHO That can't be more than a hundred bucks worth of material there even using the best quality steel.

2-Precision CNC milling. Those machining computers and mills are REALLY costly (like 10-15 grand) so I can see that if these things needed to be made to really really tight specs. (like to 1 2,000th of an inch) that might drive up price simply because it takes to much time to precisly mill somthing like that. Plus they would need the higest quality of equiptment.

I am a fan of the SIR system I am just wondering if they are really worth the $400 that
ARMS is asking for them. This post is just for gathering facts and I am planing on buying one for my RRA car a4 anyway. I was just curious.

TIA for replies.

JIM
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 9:59:03 AM EDT
ONE WORD DESCRIBES WHY THE PRICE OF THE S.I.R. IS SO "EXPENSIVE"...... QUALITY!!!! AND I MEAN TOP QUALITY THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN COMPARE TOO. SOLDIER1
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 10:13:39 AM EDT
I'll agree with solider1 about the quality part, but I had another few words..."SUPPLY and DEMAND". Even the guys who yell about their great prices are keeping their great prices way up there. Give it another year or so when something else is out, and watch the prices. It is the latest greatest gadget, and yes, I want one also.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 10:16:43 AM EDT
You used to have to pay $400 for a Knights FF RAS now you can buy one for $320-325. In a few more months it may even drop to $300. I assume once it is not the newest thing out the SIR will follow the same path.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 10:20:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2002 3:47:27 PM EDT by redray]
[img]http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/6172/indexphoto.jpg[/img] [b]It's economics baby[/b]
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 10:23:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2002 10:24:35 AM EDT by GreenLine]
I'll second that Soldier1! Definitely a quality piece of gear. Yes, the SIR is expensive and I am sure anyone considering spending the $$$ on one will have done their homework and researched the other options out there which cost less. Most are certainly familiar with all the SIR's attributes (free-floated barrel, modular rails, improved cooling, etc.), some of which are also present to some degree in other designs, but not all. Let me just say that if you do go with the SIR, you will have no regrets other than a strained wallet. If you buy something else and save a few bucks, you may end up deciding you should have bought an SIR after all an then spend the $400 bucks.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 12:12:54 PM EDT
Supply and demand, baby.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 12:25:41 PM EDT
Man I was hoping someone would say: "well of cource its gonna cost allot.....it can make your AR shoot a 1" group at 1000 yards using milsurp ammo......."
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 12:33:01 PM EDT
While ARMS makes first-rate stuff, a lot of what you pay for is the name; same as with Colt, Leupold, or any other "big name" maker.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 2:32:19 PM EDT
It's not just the name or supply and demand, we get to pay for all the R&D that went into building this system and to help finance their upcoming systems.
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 8:03:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2002 8:05:31 PM EDT by new-arguy]
LT, I cant claim 1" groups at 1000 yards, but I can claim sub-moa all day long at 300. And with cheap Winchester Value Pack ammo at that. A scope and trigger help, but the SIR is all part of the package. 4 shots under 2.5" at 300 yards... [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid37/p0047ab6bdede2b616df059920506bf98/fd1d6197.jpg[/img] Read all about it; [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=142144&w=searchPop[/url] Fact is, the more you look at the SIR, and the thought that went into it, the more you realize this isnt just another FF rail system. Everything about this accessory screams quality and progressive design. The overall price not only goes to pay for the quality material that go into the unit, but it is also paying the sallaries of a fantastic team of people that bring us some of the most fantastic accessories available for this series weapon. Simple as that. None of this means I jumped for joy when dishing out my $400, but it does mean that I wasnt scratching my head wondering where the money went.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 9:15:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:10:30 PM EDT
On the manufacturing equipment cost side, I would tend to believe the type of equipment used to make parts like this to not be merely 10-15 thousand.... A decent CNC vertical machining center, entry level, small, table, no bells starts about 50 grand. The type of machine favored by the folks making parts like this one cost nearly 300 thousand. Add 25-50 thousand for CAD/CAM, another 25-30 thousand for toolholders and cutters, and you have your complete retirement sitting on the floor in hardware. Nothing in the machining world is cheap. You pay for every hole, every groove, every setup the part goes through until completion.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:27:33 PM EDT
I would agree with most of the comments on here. It's pretty much the same in all industries, the money we spend on the SIR will not only back-finance what they spent on the R&D of the SIR, we are also helping ARMS invest in R&D on their next development. I'm assuming most dealers get about the same cost as I do on these units, and trust me, there's a reason most resellers advertise these things at pretty close to the same price...very little markup. I don't think there's a dealer out there making money hand over fist by selling these, but there isn't a quality concious reseller out there that wouldn't hesitate in selling the ARMS line of products! Rest assured though, the cost will go down as time goes by and they introduce more items. My opinion, however, is that the SIR is worth the price paid.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 7:01:15 PM EDT
Ok.....Ive addresed the Value issue here and determined that the SIR is worth the money. Now whats the best way to get one? I was thinking of the 'C' Model because I don't want to make any permeant mods to my brand new rifle by removing the Delta ring. That combined with the fact that I don't trust my 'smithing abilites on my 900 buck rifle. Anyone know some fair dealers? JIM
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 7:46:17 PM EDT
Then the "C" model is for you. Drop in installation, just remove your handguards put on the Sir, and tighten up a few bolts. All in all, about a 10 minute job.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 9:14:26 PM EDT
The C model does seem to make the most sense. That being said, you shouldnt think that you cant instal an M model. It is super duper simple. As to where to get one? No one is selling them for any less or any more than anywhere else. They are pretty much $400 across the board. A good place to deal with is [url]www.sableco.net[/url] for a new one. Awesome service and he only charges actual shipping costs, so you may save a couple bucks there. Otherwise, keep an eye out in the equipment exchange here. I've seen some used ones go for pretty cheap there. But used ones dont appear often.
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