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Posted: 11/20/2002 2:15:38 AM EDT
I have a 20 inch Bushy and I like the ballistics these guns get and the accuracy I get out to 300 yds. A friend of mine bought a Bushy M4gery and the gun is LOUD!!! and not near as accurate and I know M193 doesn't stand a chance of being terminal at over 100yds, plus If I want a weapon that is good for urban tactics I would rather have a pistol upper on my AR15 receiver because it seems like it would get the job done just as well and not as loud. Hell even my M1 carbine will do the job cheaper and just as well as an M4gery. Enlighten Me. I want accuracy and termanal performance. I am not yet convinced on the M4. John
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 3:03:34 AM EDT
Well, with proper ammo, you can have much better terminal ballistics out of an M4 than you can with a pistol caliber carbine. The M4 is designed as a more lightweight and shorter weapon intended for CQB type situations. It works wonderfully in this setting, even with M193. With the use of some of the newer rounds such as the Black Hills 75 gr BTHP load, it may be even more potent. This load will also increase the range in which the round can fragment. The M4 is a great weapon when used in the role it was intended for. I do think it is a bit out of place however when used at 300 or 500 yards. A 20' rifle would be better under those circumstances.

I think the big deal with the M4's popularity in civilian hands comes from 2 reasons. First, the gun is lighter and more compact, making it a better handling gun for many people. This is a very important concern for many. Also, since it's the gun used by our elite special forces, many are fascinated with it for that reason. Whether a chairborne ranger or just a military buff, this is often an appealing reason to have such a gun. Being the military buff I am played no small part in getting me to locate and buy a Garand.

So people like the M4 for different reasons. As long as they use it as it was intended to be used, or for just pure enjoyment or collectability, it is a fine gun.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 5:55:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:07:44 AM EDT
Greetings john232,

It's that dern Mini-Y Comp on the end of the barrel that makes it so loud. Your friend should have ordered the barreled upper and complete lower receivers separately. Then, had Kurt's Kustom put a fake flash hider on it to give it the "FS look". Tell him to sell the other upper and start from scratch.

john316
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 7:09:10 AM EDT
I say the louder, the better. It can be a deterrent in itself.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 8:17:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By john232:
A friend of mine bought a Bushy M4gery and the gun is LOUD!!! and not near as accurate and I know M193 doesn't stand a chance of being terminal at over 100yds,



John,
Ya gotta learn the difference between the operator's capabilites and the weapon's capabilities.

NewARGuy here on the board has consistantly posted SUB 1MOA groups at 300 yards with his M4 - he's got pics and witnesses. Last year the top scoring Marine for qualifications did it with an M4 (yep he beat all those guys with the full 20" barrel - all the way out to 500 yards).

M193 will have its 2700 threshold at 105 yards with its 2500fps threshold at 160 yards. By comparison the 20" has its 2700 threshold at 135 yards and its 2500fps threshold at 190 yards. Thirty yards is hardly a 'large' gap.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 3:40:22 PM EDT
The reason M4s are currently so popular is because the Govment has not come out with the M5 yet. Everyone wants to jump on the latest bandwagon what ever that may be.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 8:34:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2002 8:42:33 PM EDT by BILLBO]
Answer is simple. IT LOOKS COOL. Its a dressed up carbine and if its preban and you spent a grand on that lower, well you might as well go all the way. why have a preban blue lable a2 rifle ? looks like a postban might as well save the extra $700 when i spent that kind of cash i had to have as many of the goodies i could for it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:10:45 AM EDT
John, Sir, I agreed with you to the fullest. However, I think it's really depended on a persons' desire. I like the M4, but until the US Gov't allow the "M4A1" on the market, I doubt I can steal it from the base. So, bushmaster's design of the M4 come at least close to what my desire were.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 5:27:06 AM EDT
I posted the same question a little while back and was surprised how my question kinda went over the heads of most of the people who responded. I came to the conclusion that a lot of the folks here (on the net) have gotten the majority of their info about the AR from the net, hence what do you read about and see constantly.........the M4.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 5:47:21 PM EDT
It was new and held every gadget known to man yes even a condom dispenser and now it is dead. Thank god, That weapon was a joke. GG
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:14:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: M193 will have its 2700 threshold at 105 yards with its 2500fps threshold at 160 yards. By comparison the 20" has its 2700 threshold at 135 yards and its 2500fps threshold at 190 yards. Thirty yards is hardly a 'large' gap.
View Quote
Forest, Is that data comparison between 14.5" and 20" or 16" and 20"? I have two 14.5"s and I was very concerned about M193 or M885's capabilities at 300 yards when fired by 14.5" barrels. I thought 14.5"'s fragmentation was only enough for 100 yards, while 20" reliably covered over 200 yards. So if I'm going to ALWAYS shoot under 300 yards, am I better off with 14.5" barrels then?
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:17:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blisters: I say the louder, the better. It can be a deterrent in itself.
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The deterrent being your retina separating from the concussion?
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:33:32 PM EDT
Hopefully the M5 will be coming out soon: -.338 Lapua Magnum -Full auto capability -forty-round magazine -12.5" barrel -Ultralight composite construction -no muzzle brake (what the hell is your shoulder for anyway) -30mm (depleted uranium)single shot undermounted cannon for enganging T72/T80 series Soviet tanks at distances further than 1500 meters -fixed 40X scope adjustable to 1/16" MOA topped off with a 42mm red dot scope for CQB (less than 400 meters -1,000,000 candle power spotting scope that will be mounted under the foward handguard Then we'll get the carbine version in a few years. Maybe we can get a 20 group purchase for one of these!
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 7:17:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2002 1:24:36 PM EDT by Not_A_Llama]
The M5 is hardly news! When I was in the SEALs in Vietnam and WWII, I carried one of those as my sidearm. [;D][;D][;D][;D][;D][;D][;D][;D] [I]"Smartass" icons added because I have been informed by a moderator that a board reader is apparently unable to see the humor. For the less articulate; THIS IS A JOKE. It is *BLATENTLY* obvious that it is such. DO NOT take offense to it. The M5 does not exist. The SEALs did not exist in WWII. I am not (to my knowledge), a Navy SEAL. Taking offense to this post is very much a liberal thing to do. Learn to have a laugh. I've nothing but the utmost respect for the armed forces, as should anyone, but we shouldn't be so uptight as to lose perspective. I cannot, in good conscience, remove this post. As this board is operated by the moderators, they have the full right to remove it at their discretion. I respect any decision made by them. [/I]
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 10:47:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 10:47:59 AM EDT by Blisters]
Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama: When I was in the SEALs in Vietnam and WWII, I carried one of those as my sidearm.
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Uh, rrrrright... [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 10:49:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 10:50:06 AM EDT by Blisters]
Originally Posted By Mugzilla: The deterrent being your retina separating from the concussion?
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The deterrent being the perforation of your eardrum as you scamper away in fear of my mighty, evil, black gun! [}:D]
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 7:38:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MaverickMkii: Is that data comparison between 14.5" and 20" or 16" and 20"?
View Quote
That particular comparison was for a 16" barrel, its 15 yards less for a 14.5" M4 barrel (for a total of 45 yards difference). I used 16" since I wasn't sure if the John232 was talking about a real M4 barrel or one of the 16" versions that are popular. As for being better off with a 14.5" for under 300 yards? Neither barrel will fragment to that range, however the 20" doing a better job at the longer ranges. In reality you're not likely to be engaging over 100 yards so the 14.5" is fine. If you live in more open country then I'd select the 20". However if you use a differnet ammo (say Winchester Power Point+ 64gr, or Black Hills 68gr, or better yet 75gr TAP) you can extend those fragmentation envelopes.
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 7:54:42 AM EDT
As stated above, the M4geries seem to be so popular because they are/were the latest and greatest. People want the same/similar gear that the "high speed" folks have. Now with the advent of the SPR style rifle, I'm sure we'll start seeing more clones of that - although since the current SPR calls for specific brands of components which are all patented, they'll likely be less common as they'll still be more expensive to build, vs. the m4 where anyone can simply make the components or reasonable fascimiles of such. Rocko
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 8:26:05 PM EDT
I totally agree with you, example, an M16 commando (10 1/4" Bbl) is real loud. But, if you really want to kick ass at 300+ meters, get a FN/FAL .308. Then there are no excuses. The ballistics on the .556/.223 round pretty well suck regardless of the bullet weight/coefficient at ranges past 250M. For close-up (sub 200M) it is pretty damn effective. The latest "gouge" from the boys in the field is that they would prefer .308's for a better stand-off distance and superior stopping power. Thanks. [x]
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 8:35:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sentra239: John, Sir, I agreed with you to the fullest. However, I think it's really depended on a persons' desire. I like the M4, but until the US Gov't allow the "M4A1" on the market, I doubt I can steal it from the base. So, bushmaster's design of the M4 come at least close to what my desire were.
View Quote
Careful "Big Brother" is listening/reading.
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 8:47:02 PM EDT
Like someone said before, it looks cool. The segmented-looking barrel profile also seems to make the barrel look shorter IMO. The other added appeal is the chance to have a carbine AR that is of a Military barrel length without having to go with the 11.5 inch.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 5:21:06 AM EDT
[blue]Dear Sir (Not_A_Llama): My name is Gary M. Bullio and I am known as Sharkman629 on AR-15.com. I sent this letter to a staff member of AR-15.com after reading a message you had posted:[/blue] SUBJ: Phony SEAL on AR-15.com? MESSAGE: Dear Sir, I have recently been reading a forum posted on AR-15.com. The forum is located under: AR-15 Board AR-15 Discussions What's all the hype about the M4s? The following post to this forum is the reason I am contacting you: The M5 is hardly news! When I was in the SEALs in Vietnam and WWII, I carried one of those as my sidearm This message was posted by user: Not_A_Llama My concern is of this person's character. It is my strong recommendation that this member be questioned, by a staff member, regarding his/her state of mind at the time the aforementioned message was posted. This should be a minimum response. I do not want shame or dishonor on one of the few QUALITY sites on the Internet. I believe it is in all of our interests for a staff member to investigate this matter. It is also of my opinion that a message, such as the one described, is in violation of the Forum's Code of Conduct: 5) Fraudulent practices or attempts to defraud another will lead to account suspension and banning. This also applies to people posting fabricated lies about another user or business. If you have a real issue, discuss it, but don't make up lies because you're upset with someone. Please respond to this message ASAP. If the guy is a phony, I believe the folks at cyberseals.com would be interested to see if he has done this before someplace else. If this is the case, they may wish to put him on their "Wall of Shame" with the other "Proven Phonies". Not_A_Llama has already qualified himself for this, since this is a published message. Please respond to me ASAP with any additional information at: StrikeEagle29@aol.com Thank You. I will be looking forward to your response. [blue]First of all, please understand that I meant no disrespect to you in any way. I only wanted someone to inquire on your state of mind, if you were joking or not. When I was a teenager I used to work at local gun club and heard all kinds of bogus claims. As ridiculous as it sounds, I’ve heard people say things like you did and were completely serious! I was wrong in jumping the gun so quick and I definitely should have given it more thought. Believe me, I know there is no such thing as an M5 and I definitely know that the U.S. Navy SEALs did not exist during World War II. It does however, make me sick that there are plenty of people in this world who make such claims. I even come from a state that actually had at one time, a mayor of one of its cities vilified in a newspaper for making such a claim when running for office! I DO NOT have any ties to the Naval Special Warfare community or the U.S. Military. I do however plan to serve my country in the U.S. Air Force, upon completion of college, and continue my family’s tradition of service. I am also one of the most conservative people you will ever meet. I hold my head in shame when I realize I was so quick to suspect a fellow shooter might be similar to the pieces of shit you will find on the Wall of Shame on Cyberseals.com and who frequent the Vietnam Veteran’s Memorial wearing their fake Congressional Medals of Honor. I was wrong in not contacting you first I never took into account the number of posts you had. I believe I have really put my foot in my mouth on this one and made myself out to be complete asshole. Please understand that I did not wish to judge you, I only wanted someone to from this site to clarify in you were joking or not. I am grateful for all the support the guys on AR-15.com have given me. I am grateful that you sir, have given me a much needed lesson in discretion. I take full responsibility for my actions and I give you my deepest apologies. I also assure you that this stayed between the person who contacted you and myself. You are more than welcome to check with the staff at Cyberseals.com to corroborate this. You can also contact me at the following: Gary M. Bullio xxxx xxxxx xxxxx Drive xxxxxxxxxxx, OH xxxxx (xxx) xxx-xxxx (call collect if you like) StrikeEagle29@aol.com P.S. I will also post this on the forum myself.[/blue]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 5:38:02 AM EDT
If someone was SO upset about an obvious joke, they have probelems and should not own guns. Should I know notify the ATF??! Whoever complained needs to get a life!!!!
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 6:16:09 AM EDT
Lighten up, Francis.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 8:34:10 AM EDT
cc: Sharkman629 Hi Gary; No apology is necessary. Your intentions were good. In my modified message, I should not have critisized and chastised you for taking an action you believed to be in the interests of others. As conflict is the engine of progress, I think we can both learn from this. Sincerely, Not_A_Llama
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 8:47:41 AM EDT
cc: Not_A_Llama Dear Sir: Thank You for being so understanding! I hope we do learn from this. I know one thing, there sure are a lot of good people on this site. I have definitely realized I can learn about a lot more than just firarms here! I can't wait until after Christmas when I can spare the funds (after my pre-ban Bushy or Colt M4gery) to become a member! Once again, I do apologize for my haste, and I know you were only kidding! Next time I'll think before I act.
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