Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 10/19/2002 7:20:50 AM EDT
if I buy a preban AR15 lower reciever from a FFl dealer can I put together an AR15 pistol and register it on my pistol permit?. In Shotgun news Magazine they sell an 13inch upper reciever for the AR15 thats about 400.00 dollar. and they show the AR15 pistol fully assembled.what an awsome piece of fire power that would be to own. a couple of years ago I remember going to a gun show in NY and they had an AR15 pistol for sale. any info is appreciated. can you own one either by buying it or making one?
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 10:57:11 AM EDT
You would have to start with a pistol assembled as a preban before 94. There is no such thing as a grandfathered preban reciever. To qualify as a preban it would have to have been assembled with enough evil features to qualify. Stripped receivers do not qualify for PreBan no matter how old they are if not assembled into evil configuration.

If a receiver was ever assembled as a rifle then it can never never goto pistol config.

I would reccomend you build an AR15 AOW classified pistol and register it with the ATF. This can be done on a current production receiver and does not need to meet any of the 94 assault weapon specs.
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 12:52:57 PM EDT
Anyone wanna chat about making an AOW AR pistol? Cause I'd like to know....
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 1:34:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2002 2:08:01 PM EDT by Dogbuster]
Sorry I have to ask...AW=assault weapon, but AOW?
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 2:20:12 PM EDT
Any Other Weapon.

A classification under the National Firearm Act for a gun that is neither a handgun nor a rifle nor a shotgun.

It must be manufactured on a virgin receiver, you must never attach a stock to it, and you must add a forward pistol grip.

If you want to build it yourself, you will have to pay the ATF a $200 tax; otherwise a qualified person could build it and transfer it to you with a $5 ATF tax.

You'll have to fill out forms and visit your community Chief Law Enforcement Officer and have him sign forms and you'll have to wait months for approval. Alot of bullshit.

If you use a FAB-10 lower receiver (the California Legal AR) then you can legally build your AR as a pistol (without concern of weight).
Link Posted: 10/20/2002 9:40:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2002 2:00:25 PM EDT by budam]

Originally Posted By Colt_sporter:
Anyone wanna chat about making an AOW AR pistol? Cause I'd like to know....



What do you know? :-)

Link Posted: 10/21/2002 4:37:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2002 4:38:42 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
I don't seem to have any pics uploaded onto my webpage at this time but I have a ton at home so I will try to remember to load one for you to see.. If you keep old.ar15.com/legal/preORpost.asp in mind while reading my post, all of that which follows may make more sense...

The advise that sesat_ram gave you is accurate when it comes to building an AOW. The AOW is a unique catagory for the AR-15 as the AR-15 will have a forward and rear pistol grip. An AOW can not and must never be given a stock! In addition, I beleave the forward pistol grip must be attached in a way that tools would be required for it's removal to prevent the AOW from being considered a pistol or Short Barreled Rifle (SBR). An AOW has one big advantage as the crime bill does not apply to AOWs! In such, you can buy a stripped post ban lower and build it with a flash supressor, bayonet lug, removable magazine, etc...

The second option you have is to build a SBR AR-15. This works pretty much the same as an AOW except you can buy a pre-ban AR-15 and register it as a SBR. Once the lower is registered as a SBR you can then remove the stock and replace it with a pistol buffer and your short 7-inch upper and use it in a PISTOL configuration or keep the stock!!! With a pre-ban lower you can use it as a pre-ban short barreled rifle including using it like a preban pistol If you use a POST BAN AR-15 and register it as a SBR, you have a number of shortcommings including the fact that you can not use a bayonet lug, flash supressor, or collapsable stock BUT there is no reason that you can not still use it in a PISTOL configuration! Because this is a SBR and NOT a pistol, the SAW laws do not apply as they would to a post ban Semi Auto Pistol as far as detachable magazine and pistol weight!

Finally, the third choice you have to make youself an AR-15 pistol is to find a way around the crime bill and buy yourself a new stripped AR-15 lower and build one. The crime bill requires that a Semi-Auto pistol with an ability to accept a detachable magazine can not have two (2) or more of the following features:
  1. an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.

  2. a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.

  3. a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.

  4. a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded.

  5. a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.


Over the years I have thought of three ways around these rules.


  1. Make a non-semi auto pistol by building the upper without the gas tube.

  2. Make the magazine non-removable by replacing the Mag-Release button with a nut. You then would load the mag by pivioting the upper open and loading from inside the action.

  3. Buy a DMPS single shot lower!



So, these are the ways that I know of to get a pistol AR-15 in these days. Note the AOW and SBR route both require ATF and FBI paperwork and a $200 tax while the last doesn't quite do everything a traditional AR-15 pistol can do!

I would love to hear of anybody elses oppinions as I have considered writing this up and adding it to my webpage as there are a number of guys that would like an AR-15 pistol but just don't know how it can still be done...

Regards,
Quarterbore
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 5:18:27 AM EDT
I was told that AOW's had to smooth bore..like shotguns?? Is this true?
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:06:01 AM EDT
The AR-15 AOW works by an exception rule... I can't look at the regs right now but the basis for the AR-15 AOW includes the following....

Is an AR-15 AOW....

A rifle... NO! (No stock, can't be a rifle)
A pistol... NO! (Pistols don't have two grips)

Therefore it must be an AOW!
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:11:33 AM EDT
I found this...

ANY OTHER WEAPONS

An AOW is:

"...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 USC sec. 5845(e).
Thus the question to be answered in deciding if a weapon is an AOW would be, does it fit into any of the three categories below:

1) Is the weapon both not a pistol or revolver, and capable of being concealed on the person?
2) Or is it a smooth bore pistol or revolver? Examples of this include the H&R Handy-Gun, or Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun. This does not include weapons made from a shotgun. That would be a short barreled shotgun. The receiver of a smooth bore pistol, in order to be an AOW, must not have had a shoulder stock attached to it, ever. The shoulder stock attachment deal on some H&R Handy Guns, with a stock, will make them into a short barreled shotgun.
3) Or is it a combination gun, a shoulder fired gun with both rifled and smooth barrels between 12" and 18" long, and which has to be manually reloaded? Examples of this include the M-6 military survival gun, with a single shot barrel in .22 Hornet, and a companion .410 shotgun barrel, as well as some models of the Marble's Game Getter.
Weapons that fit the first category above are commonly called gadget guns; pen guns, stapler guns, cane guns, alarm clock guns, flashlight guns, the list of objects is pretty long. A few have been removed from the scope of the law because their collector status makes them unlikely to be misused; original Nazi belt buckle guns for example. See the C&R list for these.

If a gun has rifled barrel(s) of less than 16", and it has never had a shoulder stock it would be a pistol, unless it either has no grip at an angle to the bore, or if it has more than one grip. ATF has made the questionable decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW. This is based on the gun a) being concealable on the person, and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal court has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW. Whether ATF will regard the decision as binding beyond that case is unknown, I would doubt it. The case is U.S. v. Davis, Crim No. 8:93-106 (S.C. 1993) (Report of Magistrate, June 21, 1993). By the same token in mid 1996, ATF decided that "wallet" holsters for small guns, from which the gun could be fired, somehow are AOW's. This would affect, for example, the North American Arms mini-revolver and the wallet holster NAA sold for the gun, as an accessory. ATF seems to be thinking that the grip has disappeared, and thus it fits into the first category. This strikes me as bizarre and stupid, and I suspect the courts will have their shot at it, given how common the wallet holsters are. What if you put the gun in a purse, from which it can be fired? A folded up newspaper? How are those different than a wallet holster?

27 CFR sec. 179.11 - "pistol. A weapon originally designed, made and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having: a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). The term shall not include any gadget device, any gun altered or converted to resemble a pistol, any gun that fires more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, or any small portable gun such as: Nazi belt buckle pistol, glove pistol, or a one-hand stock gun designed to fire fixed shotgun ammunition."
There is also a revolver definition, but it does not add anything except a provision for guns with revolving cylinders, rather than permanent chambers.

Note that this definition is only in the rules for the NFA, and not the GCA. It is designed to interact with the AOW definition. For example even though this definition excludes such things as the .410 T/C Contender pistol from the pistol definition, it is also not an AOW as it has a rifled bore. And it is also a handgun under the GCA. The NFA statute does not define "pistol" or "revolver". I think that excluding handguns designed to be fired when held in two hands is not necessarily justifiable. But it allowed them to declare that an HK SP-89 pistol with a K grip is an AOW. As is an M-11/9 or TEC-9 with a foregrip. The Auto Ordnance 1927-A3 pistol is apparently exempted, for historical authenticity.




From old.ar15.com/legal/nfaFAQ.asp
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:26:06 AM EDT
SBR = $200 tax
AOW = $5 tax
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:30:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rag:
SBR = $200 tax
AOW = $5 tax



To transfer...

Both require a $200 tax to build! Accordingly, if you can have your local C-2 maufacturer register a lower as an AOW and then transfer it to you it's a $5 transfer. If you do it yourself it's a $200 tax...

You do not need to work with a C-2/C-3 dealer to do either of these conversions... Just sent the ATF and FBI your prints, pics, and application and waite a few months until the papers come back!

I do not know how much a C2/C3 dealer would charge to register a lower as an AOW and then transfer it to you...
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 10:43:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:

  1. Make a non-semi auto pistol by building the upper without the gas tube.

  2. Make the magazine non-removable by replacing the Mag-Release button with a nut. You then would load the mag by pivioting the upper open and loading from inside the action.

  3. Buy a DMPS single shot lower!



So, these are the ways that I know of to get a pistol AR-15 in these days.

I would love to hear of anybody elses oppinions as I have considered writing this up and adding it to my webpage as there are a number of guys that would like an AR-15 pistol but just don't know how it can still be done...

Regards,
Quarterbore



Well you could build a AR pistol if the weight was under 50 ozs. The limit is without sights or magazine. You could do this a couple of different ways. The shorter the barrel the lighter. Use plastic/carbon fiber upper and/or lower receivers. Or use a flat top upper, short barrel, no front sight, and drill/cut lightening holes in the lower like the Olympic OA pistol.

You could also build a pump, manual or bolt type AR in which case there is no restrictions.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 11:16:27 AM EDT
where would you get the pistol buffer thingy?

oz
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 11:25:23 AM EDT
www.model1sales.com/catalog/catalog.htm
And it's $60...



If you go with a 22LR upper, you can get real creative as no buffer is required! Also, you can use an Olympic Arms OE-93 upper as shown below that does not use a buffer tube at all....


www.olyarms.com/europe.html
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 12:26:24 AM EDT

I am getting ready to make a batch of AR15 PREBAN pistol style that are AOW's.

They will be using Olympic OA-93 upper that will use a FIRSH handguard, have a permanent mounted front foregrip, flash suppressor, no buttstock.

I am getting engraving done very soon on lowers. Once I get some picures, I will share them.

They will have a $5 transfer fee using only form 4's to transfer. No form 3's in this case.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 12:31:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:

Both require a $200 tax to build! Accordingly, if you can have your local C-2 maufacturer register a lower as an AOW and then transfer it to you it's a $5 transfer. If you do it yourself it's a $200 tax...



I do not know of a C2 who would just transfer the lower as an AOW to anyone. It needs to be complete upper/lower for it to be an AOW.

The stripped lower is put into the books as a pistol, parts/upper added, then papered as an AOW. One could put in their books receiver and then paper it as an AOW and I doubt it makes any real difference.

For an AR15 pistol style AOW, it MUST have a permanenetly mounted vertical foregrip.
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:33:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2002 4:36:29 AM EDT by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By budam:

I do not know of a C2 who would just transfer the lower as an AOW to anyone. It needs to be complete upper/lower for it to be an AOW.




Thanks, That is what I had meant...

For me, I would prefer to go the SBR route with a pre-ban lower as it allows a lower to be used as a pre-ban RIFLE, SBR (ie 14.5-inch M4 Carbine or shorter), a pre-ban AR-15 pistol, a AOW, or just about anything else!

An AOW can only be an AOW... It can not be used as a pistol... It can not be used as a rifle or carbine....


Originally Posted By monkeyman:

You could also build a pump, manual or bolt type AR in which case there is no restrictions.



Thanks for this correction as well! If one removes the gas tube an AR-15 becomes esentially a T-handled bolt action. I have seen NRA Highpower Match Rifles where guys will mill out the side of their upper and mount a bolt handle directly to the carier of an AR-15. This makes a slick BOLT ACTION AR-15 and it's the fastest bolt action one could imagine as rip her back and let it fly closed! Not a bad option for a POST BAN AR-15 pistol in my oppinion!

About a year or two ago there was a member on this board that built a slick looking pump action pistol. I wish I had more details...?

I'm sure there are more details we missed... anybody else?

Link Posted: 10/22/2002 4:41:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By budam:

They will have a $5 transfer fee using only form 4's to transfer. No form 3's in this case.



Please explain this more.... I live in Pennsylvaina where I can own a SBR, AOW, Full AUTO, DD, etc...

Are you saying that you can do a transfer of this AOW directly to me via a FORM 4 without my needing to work with a Local C3 dealer? After my Form 4 was approved, would the AOW then need to be shipped to an FFL or an SOT holder?

How would an out-of-state sale work in the case of AOWs?
Link Posted: 10/22/2002 6:21:09 AM EDT
Mark as an out of your state manuf. could transfer on form 3 to an SOT dealer in your state. Then the dealer would transfer to you on a $5 tax form 4.

Mark could transfer on a form 4 tax paid direct into another state only if the recipiant is a current FFL holder.

Sometimes depending upon the value of the AOW the form 4 tax paid transfer even between SOT dealers is cheaper than the federal excise tax due upon manuf. and sale of a firearm. This could be what Mark refered to. A form 4 transfer to an SOT dealer in your state for $5 would not require FET to be paid saving the final purchaser some coin.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 7:21:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2002 7:24:21 PM EDT by Quarterbore]
It took me a couple days but I managed to get some sample pics online....

AR-15 AOW using a normal AR-15 style upper:


AR-15 AOW using Olympic Arms OE-93 style upper:


AR-15 SBR: Bishop's Micro CAR


AR-15 Pistol... 22 LR so no buffer needed!


Hope these help! Also, I will be working to add these details to my webpage as time allows!

Link Posted: 10/23/2002 7:37:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
The second option you have is to build a SBR AR-15. This works pretty much the same as an AOW except you can buy a pre-ban AR-15 and register it as a SBR. Once the lower is registered as a SBR you can then remove the stock and replace it with a pistol buffer and your short 7-inch upper and use it in a PISTOL configuration or keep the stock!!!



Are you sure about that?

I thought that a SBR had to have a stock, it is a short barrel RIFLE, I dont think you can legally remove the stock........ but I may be wrong.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 7:43:42 PM EDT
Yes, I agree. I think the SBR has to have the stock. Removing it classifies it as an AOW. I would not try to remove the stock before checking directly with the ATF. Technicalities in the law can lead to sticky situations, so be careful. The ATF is the be all and end all when it comes to these laws, so see if they can help you with some info.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 7:50:23 PM EDT
Short barreled rifles and shotguns can have but do not need to have a stock.

16" or shorter barrel or less than 26" overall length would require short rifle.

18" barrel and 26 overall for shotgun
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 5:50:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TommyBrown:
Short barreled rifles and shotguns can have but do not need to have a stock.

16" or shorter barrel or less than 26" overall length would require short rifle.

18" barrel and 26 overall for shotgun



Yup, that is what I understand just as TommyBrown had posted... when I write it all up and put it on a webpage I will include the SBR regulations or I will write the ATF to confirm if the regs don't make it clear...
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 2:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2002 2:47:26 PM EDT by budam]

Originally Posted By TommyBrown:
Sometimes depending upon the value of the AOW the form 4 tax paid transfer even between SOT dealers is cheaper than the federal excise tax due upon manuf. and sale of a firearm. This could be what Mark refered to. A form 4 transfer to an SOT dealer in your state for $5 would not require FET to be paid saving the final purchaser some coin.



You nailed it.

For a $800 gun transferred on a form 3, the 11% would add on $80 for a total of $880.

If you form 4 from the manufacturer, with the $5 excise tax, then it would cost $805 = $800 for gun + $5 excise tax on form 4.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 2:45:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TommyBrown:
Short barreled rifles and shotguns can have but do not need to have a stock.

16" or shorter barrel or less than 26" overall length would require short rifle.

18" barrel and 26 overall for shotgun



Remember he verbage, "...intended to be fired from the shoulder".

It has been interprated to mean buttstock, not pistol grip.

A pistol gripped shotgun made from a shoulder fired shotgun is STILL a short barralled shotgun, per BATF ruling.

Note that that the above is true for a rifle.

If you have a SBR/SBS without a buttstock, you are going to see "Bubba."
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 5:53:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By budam:

A pistol gripped shotgun made from a shoulder fired shotgun is STILL a short barralled shotgun, per BATF ruling.

Note that that the above is true for a rifle.

If you have a SBR/SBS without a buttstock, you are going to see "Bubba."



How to the last two lines go together? If I have a Pre-Ban AR-15 and register it as a SBR... As you said in the 2nd line, this would be the same as a pistol gripped shotgun... right?

If so, why can the absence of a buttstock on a SBR invite time with BUBBA?

---------------------------------------------

I need to do some research on this as my understanding was that rifles and shotguns fit the same rules and your 1st and 2nd lines as quoted were my understanding....
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:26:14 AM EDT
Has anyone seen the new cover of Small Arms Review? It has an article about a AOW Krinkov..They some how got around the whole deal ,granted it doesn't have a stock(non shoulder fired) but it looks pretty damn kickass too. It has a "phantom" flash hider. I dunno if anyone wants to elaborate on this one for me?
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 1:17:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2002 1:21:15 PM EDT by sesat_ram]
There is no trick to building a AOW Krinkov. You just build one according to the parts count rule, except you don't affix the shoulder stock and you use a K-foregrip. The krink needs that flash supressor to cycle the gas.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 1:07:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2002 1:07:40 AM EDT by budam]

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:

How to the last two lines go together? If I have a Pre-Ban AR-15 and register it as a SBR... As you said in the 2nd line, this would be the same as a pistol gripped shotgun... right?

If so, why can the absence of a buttstock on a SBR invite time with BUBBA?



Best I can describe it is a catch-22.

An SBR/SBS has to have a shoulder stock. For it NOT to have a shoulder stock, it must then fall into some other catagory (i.e. AOW, MG, etc.)

If you put a pistol grip on it, then it does not have the ability to be fired from the shoulder, even though it is registered as a SBS/SBR, it is no longer a SBS/SBR because it has lost one of the requirements.

In situations like these, best to write a letter to the technical branch and ask. I feel pretty comfortable with what I am saying, but the final saying comes from the TB. The Machine Gun Dealers Bible also says the same as I, FWIW.

Best of luck with your project!
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 2:53:44 AM EDT
www.precisionweaponscorp.com/

heres your krinkov

Top Top