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Posted: 10/18/2002 2:13:41 PM EDT
How about some actual group sizes in difference between the two. also anyone with a 20" RRA i would love to know how it groups as well. How effective are each of these guns at ranges around say 500 yards(with optics of course).

also. who do i get (address, webpage, number, PRICE, lost time) to make a pencil barrel out of a 16" RRA barrel or RRA M4 barrel and how much would this hurt my accuracy(again assuming good optics)or would it be better to just order the Bushmaster M-4 profile Dissapator barrel and also get chrome lining. the RRA guns i have found are not chrome lined =(
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 3:00:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2002 3:02:09 PM EDT by green18]
you can order a chrome lined 16" RRA M4 with the pressed on fake hider from Pete in NH and have the look of the M4 and the benefit of the chrome lining and a true 16" barrel. Like this one of mine:

Link Posted: 10/18/2002 3:37:30 PM EDT
I have three RRA M4 profile, non chrome lined barrel carbines. One is scoped and will consistently group about 1" at 100 yards with high quality ammunition. I also have a RRA 20" SS CMP barrel rifle with a free float handguard, match trigger etc which is scoped and will shoot groups of about 5/8" (sometimes better) at 100 yards with high quality ammunition. Never shot them at 500 yards. For the difference in weight and cost, for most applications I would recommend the M4 model. These guns are all more accurate that most shooters and ammunition. All are totally reliable. The "Gunshop Commandos" believe the chrome lining is important. For non military applications, I don't see the need and there "may" be a slight trade off in accuracy.
RRA offers the M4 barrel with the chrome lining for an additonal $30, so if it makes you feel more confident, go for it.

PCS,Inc. will turn AR15 barrels for reasonable prices and reportly do good work.
www.angelfire.com/ok5/pcsinc/imc_AR_Services.htm
Link Posted: 10/18/2002 6:34:21 PM EDT
I agree with the above post, chrome lining isn't really necessary in a civilian weapon. The military uses it necause it resists the effects corrosive primers and it inhibits corrosion between cleanings. It also makes the barrel easier to clean. It is a little less accurate because it isn't posible to apply the chrome in a completly uniform thickness. As far as I know, there is no corrosive ammo available in .223 or 5.56. Some E. European surplus has corrosive primers, but it's in com-block calibers. My advice is go chrome if you want the easiest time cleaning, go chrome molly if you want maximum accuracy. Target barrels are available in stainless, but that's an overkill for the average AR. Only my actual competition rifle has a stainless barrel.
Link Posted: 10/19/2002 5:06:33 AM EDT
I shot this 100 yard group with my 16" non-chromed lined RRA 2001 LEGP. I installed a Stoner 2 stage trigger and topped it off with a Leupold 36x scope. The handloads were 25 grains of Varget under 60gr Vmax's. Not too shabby since these were the FIRST handloads that I shot through this rifle.

Link Posted: 10/21/2002 4:48:15 AM EDT
does anybody have any input on these barrels at longer hunting ranges around 500 yards though. im only trying to hit a deer at this distance with a scoped weapong. can a 16" M4 profile barrel do this?
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 5:34:08 AM EDT
First, check your game laws.....I think .223 is not legal in a lot of states for deer hunting. While you may successfully kill a deer at 500 yard with a .223 it will likely not be humane, and I would find a more suitable hunting round for large game.

If you want to hunt with an AR style weapon, get a 7.62x39 upper, or one of the wildcats like the 440 Corbon, 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, etc.....

The M16/AR15 was designed for light infantry use and really has a good useful engagement range of under 200 yards and under. Much over that is good for paper and little critters like Prairie Dogs, Gophers, Gorund Hogs, etc....

Ed
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 5:55:54 AM EDT
a 223 is legal here. and im mostly wanting a rifle capable of that range. i dont plan on killing more than 1 or 2 deer with this gun. paper very likely will be the main target at over 200 yards. and i think you should know several people from my home town have dropped a dear cold with a 22lr placed correctly in the head and with 22 mag in the chest. not exactly monster bucks, but back in the days it was done humanely with good shot placement. if you are worried about humanely killing deer go take a closer look at what bowhunting tends to do to them.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:05:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
does anybody have any input on these barrels at longer hunting ranges around 500 yards though. im only trying to hit a deer at this distance with a scoped weapon. Can a 16" M4 profile barrel do this?



As you are asking about M4s of 16" length and groups for this type AR at 500 yards, I'll guess that you're not gonna get much in the way of an answer to your question.

M4s either 14.5" w/FS/Muzbrake or 16" versions are not designed for engagements at the distance you asked about.

Your question would be applicable to an RRA DCM/CMP 20" stainless steel barreled upper tho and X-man, ardvrk and many others here will tell ya they shoot tight groups with special loads in Highpower competitions open-sighted on almost any given weekend.

With my 24" CR-6724, on a good day in good air I'll shoot MOA all day at 500 yards, and while I have attempted 550 yard shots at the farm w/ my Bushmaster AK shorty (14.5" barrel w/AK brake) the 4min. Aimpoint ML2 dot covers 20"+ inches at that range and makes consistent hits on the 18" steel plate about a 50/50 proposition. Not to mention the lethality of a mil-spec 223 round leaves alot to be desired. While I have done extensive testing w/ Winchester 64grn. PowerPoints & PowerPoint Plus, bullets designed for deer hunting type applications, I never found a load accurate enough to take a deer at that range even using the 24" AR and wouldn't experiment on a live animal at the expense of it's possible suffering.

Hope this helps ya out,
Mike
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:12:30 AM EDT
16" barreled AR's will begin to show a decrease in accuracy at ranges beyond 300 yards due to decreased muzzle velocity. (Now I know that some member here shoots an AR with a 3" barrel out to 6 miles with sub MOA accuracy ! The above is for us 'regular' folks.)
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:14:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
...if you are worried about humanely killing deer go take a closer look at what bowhunting tends to do to them.



Do what you want, as long as it's legal. Don't really care, just letting you know that if you are buying an M4 for hunting you'll be sorely disappointed. Use the right tools for the right job, but judging by your attitude you'd probably use a pencil as a hammer, or a light bulb to paint walls. While they may work, there are much better tools for the job at hand.

FYI....I'd bet a well placed 100gr broadhead from 40 yards would kill a deer more humanely than a .223 at 500 yards. But you obviously don't care.

Enjoy your AR.

Ed
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:34:51 AM EDT
Jonathan,
I mean no flames toward you but even if the .223 is legal in your area you're going to leave wounded animals if you use this round. The military in the Afghan has had to review their use of the M4 rifles for other than CQB as the stopping power on a human is sorely lacking at ranges under 100 yards.

I know you don't need a sermon but just FYI.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 6:36:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FrankSquid:
I shot this 100 yard group with my 16" non-chromed lined RRA 2001 LEGP. I installed a Stoner 2 stage trigger and topped it off with a Leupold 36x scope. The handloads were 25 grains of Varget under 60gr Vmax's. Not too shabby since these were the FIRST handloads that I shot through this rifle.

www.hunting-pictures.com/members/franksquid/Mvc-003s.jpg



DAMN! that's pretty good shooting, keep the good handloading and shooting training up. CONGRATS!
HUNTER.

CHECK THE HANDGUN FORUMS
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 7:27:49 AM EDT
ok im sorry i brought deer into this. first where i live you never see a deer more than 100 yards through trees. i just wanted to know if i coudl possibly hit one or the fender on the old bus on the next hill at longer distances with a scope and a good prop. i only deer hunt 2-3 times a year anyway. and im fairly certain that a 223 is more humane under 100 yds than a bow and arrow. if anyone shoots even 4 MOA with a bow id like to know. partly im trying to contrast the person or two locally who hunt with .50bmg. and before anyone brings it up no i have never shot at a deer with a .22. my dad is going into his 70's and back in his day people would hunt with whatever. i can easily believe some of his friends/family put meat on the table with inexpensive 22lr or mag. my dad and his EXTREMELY arthritic shoulder are also part of the reason im gettin 223. he wont shoot anything over 22mag but i think he could take 223 with a good buttpad. he is home more than me so if we have any more wild dogs show up he would be the one shooting them at 200yds on the poolbank anyway.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 7:44:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
...and im fairly certain that a 223 is more humane under 100 yds than a bow and arrow. if anyone shoots even 4 MOA with a bow id like to know....



My last comment, I swear. 4 MOA at 20 yards would be roughly .8". If you are NOT shooting this good at 20 yards, you need to practice. At 30 yards it's 1.2", I know I can do 5 arrows at 30 yards inside a 5" circle (need to do that to qualify to hunt in certain public places) but I don't measure my groups while shooting with a bow.

I didn't say you couldn't kill a deer with a .223 I just said there is/are better rounds for this task. With such a small bullet you are more likely to "just miss" vitals.

Would use it as an infantry weapon, because I don't carry where an enemy crawls away to die.....won't use it to hunt cause I hate to track wounded animals and it's illegal in VA.

I want it dead NOW.......not 500 yards after I shot it.

Ed
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 8:02:55 AM EDT
lets drop DEER completely. just tell me someone how easy is it to hit a 55gallon drum at 500 yds with a 16" barrel M4 or HBAR. a SHAW barrel in particular.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 10:39:59 AM EDT
Hello, I myself am looking to get a ar15, just wondering, how much did you pay for a RRA M4, I mean I've been to there web sight but is that suggested retail, is it cheaper in reality? thanks for all the replys.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 11:01:33 AM EDT
these people seem to have the best RRA prices around and seem like they will work with you. havent bought anything from them yet though

GUN SHOP
4771 BRITT RD STE E-5
NORCROSS , GA 30093
TOLL FREE
1-888-207-2220
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 11:13:43 AM EDT
GUN SHOP
4771 BRITT RD STE E-5
NORCROSS , GA 30093
TOLL FREE
1-888-207-2220

Regarding these guys: I was browsing Gunbroker.com, and noticed that I live quite near them. I went over, and mentioned that I saw their auction for an AR. They honored their price for the 'Buy it Now' feature, which was $788. I though this was the best price I could find, and I bought it. They also made me a great deal on mags and other stuff.
All in all:
They are nice guys, helpful, and willing to bargain.
I would definately do business with them again.
Just my .02 of unsolictited advice.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 1:35:40 PM EDT
Thanks Jonathan and TSL, appreciate it.
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