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Posted: 10/6/2002 12:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2002 4:30:04 PM EDT by knightone]
Just watched GI Jane. I noticed the rifle they called an M4 was actually a XM177/GAU5 CAR. They made it waterproof by placing a condom over the mag/magwell and tying another condom over the muzzle. Does this actually work or does it matter?
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 12:48:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2002 12:48:53 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]
The condom over the bbl. is there to prevent water from filling the bore & causing a potentially catastrophic "event" if fired. Covering the mag. well is a new one to me, but I suppose it'll help some. No gun truly water-tight, so water still creeps in, but less when "preventative" methods are employed.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 12:56:06 PM EDT
Abstinence(from water) is the only safe way.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 12:59:48 PM EDT
Then again, most sane people don't enter the water with their AR15's. If they do, I doubt its like the PS2 SOCOM commercial where they are appearing from a swamp. A condom over the muzzle is usefull anytime you go hunting as well!
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 2:42:06 PM EDT
You'd have to add some silicone caulking to make it waterproof , remember where the upper and lower meet as well as the vent hole in the rear of the buttstock and of course the ejection port cover, charging handle, basically no way to waterproof it unless it's in a plastic bag!
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 2:46:15 PM EDT
I have heard about an experimental diaphram.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 4:15:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By knightone:
I noticed the rifle they called an M4 was actually a XXM177/GAU5 CAR.



They're always doin' that. Oh this is an XME-22563-E14, when really it's a Smith & Wesson 9mm Auto, chrome plated. Dang Democrats...
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 4:28:09 PM EDT
I know most people don't take their AR's into the water, but I'm sure SeALs and other operators do take their M4's into water. Do these guys do anything to protect the rifle or do they just take them into the water without anything protecting their weapons?
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 4:50:50 PM EDT
i dont remeber who makes it but i remember reading in SAR a couple months ago about a water proof gun bag that you could shoot thru.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 5:06:09 PM EDT
What is there to "PROTECT".

The Ar-15/M-16 is anodized Aluminum, Plastic, Mil-Spec parkerized fire control parts and a chrome lined/Mil-Spec parkerized barrel.

That's about as "weather-proof" as it gets.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 5:44:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2002 5:56:21 PM EDT by talbalos]
First of all, GI Jane is a movie. It was directed by Ridley Scott, who also directed Blacck Hawk Down. The major difference between the two movies, besides some 6 or 7 years, has to do with Pentagon support. Whereas BHD had full Pentagon support from aviation resources down to military advisors that were actually in Somalia, GI Jane had minimal if any support. Anyone who has watched The Discovery Channel in the last couple of years has seen their documentaries on SEAL training. Compare that footage to that of GI Jane and you'll see a difference between night and day: the real world vs. Hollyworld. Pay attention to the facilitlies as well. The best point I can make is the aircraft used in either movie. BHD had real Blackhawks and Little Birds. GI Jane used neutered rental AH-1S Bell Cobra attack helicopters and repainted HH-3 Sikorsky Coast Guard rescue helos.

Second there is a field technique for protecting the rifles during water crossings described in one of the government manuals. It entails using a shoot off plastic muzzle cap over the flash hider and keeping a round in the chamber.


You have to remember that the rifles issued to troops in the field are working rifles and not the pride and joy of a civilian collector. As such, they're going to be used and abused

(Due to the small bore and high velocity of the bullet, any obstruction in the barrel can be dangerous.)

Unless you have imminent contact that requires return fire, you remove the cap and with the muzzle pointed down, break the seal at the chamber end by pulling the charging handle back slightly, but not far enough back to eject the round or cause a double feed. This allow water to run out the muzzle. Water in the action and buffer tube will drain out the trigger openning.

When time permits, the rifle should be field stripped, cleaned and lubricated.

After the mission or patrol, the rifle will probably be returned to the unit armorer for a more thorough inspection and cleaning. The rifle is repaired or replaced as necessary.

Condoms are better suited for their intended purpose. Shoot through water proof bags are probably noisy to handle plastic, are useless after that shot and are probably a pain in the ass to get open to remove the rifle.

Link Posted: 10/6/2002 5:49:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2002 5:52:48 PM EDT by talbalos]

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
What is there to "PROTECT".

The Ar-15/M-16 is anodized Aluminum, Plastic, Mil-Spec parkerized fire control parts and a chrome lined/Mil-Spec parkerized barrel.

That's about as "weather-proof" as it gets.



There's those pesky steel trigger group components, take down pins and assorted springs. Even parkerization doesn't guarantee rust won't get a foothold. Forgot to mention A2 rear sight components.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 8:22:30 PM EDT
We always use the plastic muzzle caps, and clean our own weapons before turn-in; that's in a manual? Who knew?
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 8:25:33 PM EDT
Knightone said "I know most people don't take their AR's into the water, but I'm sure SeALs and other operators do take their M4's into water. Do these guys do anything to protect the rifle or do they just take them into the water without anything protecting their weapons?"

Yes, their weapons, which are exposed to sea water, and must be capable of being fired immediately without cleaning or relubing, have a teflon finish. I mean, EVERYTHING is teflon finished.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 10:23:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2002 1:00:58 AM EDT by NORTH556]

Originally Posted By knightone:
Just watched GI Jane. I noticed the rifle they called an M4 was actually a XM177/GAU5 CAR. They made it waterproof by placing a condom over the mag/magwell and tying another condom over the muzzle. Does this actually work or does it matter?



This is great for safe sex with your rifle, nothing more. Condoms on rifles are a fashion faux pas, as well as tactically unsound. A condom would be effective for preventing water to enter the muzzle in a light rain, but then again, so would the plastic shoot through muzzle caps. Shooting a through a condom would make quite a mess (hot gasses, hot barrel, and the condoms low melting temp).

Has anyone ever tried a condom on a muzzle and submersed the M16/AR15 or any other gas operated weapon? Guess what, you will still get water in the bore. Should one ever need to submerse one's weapon, when one surfaces the water, simply tilt the weapon downward, pull back slightly on the charging handle (to break the seal of the round/water in the chamber) to allow the bore to drain (10-12 seconds), you should be good to go. A condom or plastic muzzle cap would restrict the water from draining, which would be catastrophic if the weapon was fired.

The M16 family of weapons CAN NOT BE FIRED WITH WATER IN THE BORE with out doing damage to the weapon and/or one's self.

Here is a link from the U.S. Navy Safety Center about the dangers of water obstruction, 2 examples of water incidents involving Navy M4 Carbines, and proper procedures to clear the water.

www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/groundwarrior/issues/Summer02/twom4s.htm

Nothing special is required for water operations; water will drain from other areas of the weapon on its own. If you're in salt water, you might wash everything down with fresh water, dry, then clean and oil your weapon thoroughly afterwards.

Happy Hunting
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 11:12:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 12:24:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2002 12:27:25 AM EDT by NORTH556]
IMHO,

Why does your link work, mine comes up as page not available? (they are the same link)
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 12:36:09 AM EDT
I think you have a space in front of the www. part.
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 1:20:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2002 1:28:48 AM EDT by NORTH556]
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 1:49:42 AM EDT
Just to be clear condoms ARE used in salt water but not to keep water out. They are used because in tidal areas the silt and sand gets mixed into the water from the tidal motions. If this water settles into an AR it deposits all that sand and silt evenly through the water then evenly through the internals of your M16/M4. The condoms allow less crud to enter the weapon. After coming out of the water the condoms are removed and the weapons are drained by breaking the seal as has been stated previously. More elaborate methods are sometimes used for protection from silt but many use the condom method as a filter against it although packing the sides of the magwell with white grease and other more difficult methods are used by operators on an individual basis. This was discussed a year or two ago on tacticalforums.com and this was the answer given by the SEAL who answered the question.
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 5:55:58 AM EDT
I dunno about SEAL's,but us Jarheads used a Muzzlecap that had "Cap-Plug" written on it,and didn't charge the rifle untill clear of the surf.And only then after removing said cap,and tilting muzzle down to allow any water to run out.

Silt is the biggest issue,then "Sugar cookie syndrome" afterwards as sand stuck everywhere on the wet weapon.

As for protection from the salt water?
Prior to the "Phib op" we used those horsehair brushes dunked in some stuff that smelled like Mineral spirits gone rancid,and once ashore good old CLP and lots of cussing.

The lower gets silt and sand in it no matter what ya do it seems,and guranteed the sights will get stuffed with sand and ya gotta blow the crap off.

Did a bit of Helocasting and Phib-raid ops when I was in,and the issues are endless.My hats off to the "Boat people" for specializing in the ugliness for a living.

For the record,I had a Spyderco knife that rusted in the I.O. when my 16 didn't.
Still drives me nuts as to why!


Cheers!
S-28
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:07:01 PM EDT
Hi all,

I am a SWAT Sniper in a coastal Texas town. There is such a thing as a dry bag. Referred to in SAR. Looks a lot like a soft rifle case only has an oral inflator valve much like a PFD. One can store his rifle in his drag bag, the drag bag in the dry bag and you are waterproof.

The things are made of very heavy duty material, reinforced seams, special waterproof ykk zippers and have S.S. D rings for lashing to various watercraft. Once you inflate them, you can cast from offshore and kick in behind them (flotation aid). When you get ashore, bungee your fins up around your waist, deflate the dry bag and store it in the drag bag.

You're on your way.

The shoot through models have a heavy duty glove (similiar to what a lineman wears) made into the side so one can shoot thru the bag upon exiting the water if the situation dictates.

See www.usia.com and www.watreborne.com

NOTE: "watreborne" spelling is correct for site name purposes.

Also, for you SWAT types, if you are interested in a Sniper/Surface Swimmer Course, please e-mail me @ brianksain@yahoo.com.
Link Posted: 10/9/2002 6:31:13 PM EDT
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