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Posted: 9/13/2002 12:55:07 PM EDT
Gentlemen,
I have fallen in love with the AR15 and it's variants. I need to get one. Everyone has their opinion about the "perfect combo" or "set-up" or "components", but the only thing that matters to me is accuracy.

I need the most accurate AR-15 or variant there is, period, for long range .223 varminting, benchresting, crows, plinking. I just plain want to hit what I aim at. FWIW I CAN shoot.

I have looked and searched and come up with two possibilities: 1) Les Baer and 2) Hatcher Gun Co. Neither of the prices scare me.

At the moment I am leaning towards the Hatcher AR-15 ATP-3ATC.

Anyone care to offer more suggestions on where I can find my dream AR??
Thanks,
Jimno
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 2:08:49 PM EDT
Your best bet is to build the rifle. Your going to save at least $1000 if done correctly.

The other factor is going to be Ammo. Granted that there are some good match ammo's offered, but if your going for single holes, your going to need to reload before you truly find the rifle's sweet spot.

Start checking around for prices and you will be surprised at the savings.

Here is a link to get you started.
http://www.compasslake.com/
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:18:49 PM EDT
For accuracy, you would want the Olympic PCR-1P which has the Ultramatch barrel and all the good stuff to make the rifle one of the most accurate production ARs out there as long as you don't mind a slight wait.

Maxhard Picatinny Flat-top
Maxhard Premium Forged A2 Lower
Williams Set Trigger
UltraMatch 20" or 24" Bull Barrel
Harris Bi-Pod
Tactical Pistol Grip

Just to mention a few of the standard features. I sell the things for $1350 and haven't found anything to match the accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 5:30:11 PM EDT
Buy yourself a bone stock flat-top from Bushmaster, or Armalite, and then talk to the guys @ GA Precision Rifles. They just brought a "tuned" AR-10 to Badlands a few weeks ago, that shot 3.5 inches @ 1000 yards. I'm sure they could work miracles with a .223.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 10:52:49 PM EDT
i dont now if this helps you any but im looking at a baer (m4). i called lbc and i asked a question about chamber specs that the lady i initally talked to couldnt answer. she told me to call back later and i got to talk to mr baer himself. i thought that was a pretty novel concept myself. im sure you can get a great gun and service elsewhere but talking to mr baer personally made me want that gun even more.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 10:56:43 PM EDT
Colt CAR-A3 Hbar Elite.

Buy the right tool for the job. A Match setup DCM type gun really isnt sutable for varmiting.

You want a flat top with a free floated tube with bipod stud & a long Brl. Not a 20" with NM iron sights and lead weights in the butt & handguards.
Link Posted: 9/13/2002 11:43:58 PM EDT
Compass lake, accuracy speak, or for little less expensive, DPMS makes a accurate rifle for your purpose.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 12:37:28 PM EDT
ROCK RIVER IS THE WAY TO GO
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 2:19:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snoogins70:

.... a "tuned" AR-10.... that shot 3.5 inches @ 1000 yards.




great gobs of golden goat dung....
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 2:31:27 PM EDT
look at a match upper with a Krieger barrel from John Holingere at White Oak Precision.
None of the big makers make a true precision Krieger barreled upper to my knowledge.
do some reasearch in the accurate ARs porton of this sight and you will find a wealth of info.
Talk to some shooters at a service rifle highpower match or CMP match.
An off the shelf target AR MAY shoot 1MOA but it sounds like you want 1/2MOA or less.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 3:31:40 PM EDT
John Hollinger (who posts regularly on the Competitive Shooter forum on the General board) or Compass Lake Engineering will hand build you a machine cheaper/more accurate than Les Baer. No comment as to Hatcher. Hollinger placed second behind a guy from the AMU in the National Service Rifle Competition. He was also High Civilian.

Check this year's Camp Perry results & see what the winners were shooting. You obviously can't get a gun built by the AMU, but otoh I'd bet few, if any, winners shot a Baer or Hatcher weapon either.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 5:00:04 PM EDT
i own the les baer "ultimate" varminter model. it is absolutely the best AR i have ever shot i also own a DPMS sweet 16 bull barrel rifle but is not even in the same leauge.! LBC GUARANTEES 1/2" MOA mine cane with a test card with 2 1 hole groups one measuring a little over .25 the other is just a little larger.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 5:06:26 PM EDT
All these guys are giving good advice but if you are truly new to the AR15 you should take one thing into consideration. The AR15 in any form will match or beat whatever you are shooting now. (bolt target exception talking mag feed) My 16.5" plinker shoots circles around my Mini 14 let alone the longer barrels. My use is plinking and varmits not competition and typically under 300 yards. If I reach out it's with a large caliber.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 6:38:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By snoogins70:

.... a "tuned" AR-10.... that shot 3.5 inches @ 1000 yards.




great gobs of golden goat dung....



"SCOOP" is having George build him an SPR as we type. If it shoots like his bolt guns, my CR6724 is in trouble. I'm sure he'll share the info when he gets the rifle; should be about another month or so.
Link Posted: 9/14/2002 10:02:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2002 10:04:28 PM EDT by heliflyer]

Originally Posted By Jimno2506:
Gentlemen,
I have fallen in love with the AR15 and it's variants. I need to get one. Everyone has their opinion about the "perfect combo" or "set-up" or "components", but the only thing that matters to me is accuracy.

I need the most accurate AR-15 or variant there is, period, for long range .223 varminting, benchresting, crows, plinking. I just plain want to hit what I aim at. FWIW I CAN shoot.

I have looked and searched and come up with two possibilities: 1) Les Baer and 2) Hatcher Gun Co. Neither of the prices scare me.

At the moment I am leaning towards the Hatcher AR-15 ATP-3ATC.

Anyone care to offer more suggestions on where I can find my dream AR??
Thanks,
Jimno



If you want OFF THE SHELF accuracy, get Les Baer. Have you been to the Les Baer website?

Bill
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 1:22:42 AM EDT
Frank White at Compass Lake Engineering.
Give him a holler,tell him what you want to do with the critter.It's all over but the red mist and twitching from there.

As for out of the Box, Baer,Wilson and RRA do wonderfull things if you find the load they like.

Stupid thing is,with an AR it's a forrest for the tree's situation.They all shoot so well it's tough to decide,and becomes a "Flavor" selection in the end.
Being framilliar with BR you understand the nuances of the barrel and chamber selection determining consistency,and Frank White is known for his barrel work and is why I pointed him out.
The man has the "Feel" for things,and is akin to Dave Tooley in the AR world.

Best of luck to ya whatever way you turn.
S-28
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 5:49:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2002 5:49:40 AM EDT by WSAR15]
www.metalcraft-ar15.com
Barry at Metalcraft can put together a very nice rifle with a two stage trigger.
Look it up.
Link Posted: 9/15/2002 6:01:52 AM EDT
Have to agree with ArmyInf. I have an Oly Ultramatch setup similar to what he describes, only I have the JP trigger and hammer. A good trigger is important! You cannot shoot accurately with a long gritty 8# trigger.

The Olympic Arms Ultramatch barrels are excellent.
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 4:59:25 AM EDT
Gentlemen,
Your responses to my question are incredible. Thank you so much for the wonderful wealth of information. Thanks, also, for leaving out any bashing, flaming, or just plain stupid comments. This type of response is, unfortunately, becoming extinct on forum boards. I really appreciate it!!!!!!!

Now back to "black magic". Having had a custom bolt rifle built to my specs and handloading for it, I can appreciate all your comments on barrels, reloading, and the like. It seems like there are many, many different way to approach this rifle and it is going to take some time to get all the components sorted out.

I can't wait to get started. I'm going to look into the websites, and aftermarket accuracy specialists you all recommend.

I think you need to go to the Hatcher Gun Company Site and check out their match rifles. They offer one that was shot from sandbags into 0.196" at 100 yards with factory loads. NICE!!

I'm off to learn more!!
Jimno
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 5:11:55 AM EDT
Take a look at Camp Perry. Most rifles are Colts that are customized by somebody. That's probably because there are more Colt's in the world than any other brand. From what I see ArmaLite is the best out of the box NM rifle. A Marine won the big match with one a while back but most of the military rifles come from their own shops. The military is using a lot of Armalites. I don't see many Baers being used. The other brands are more standard than the Armalites. Armalite's management has a lot more background in target shooting and the military so that seems to give them an edge. Oly doesn't do much. Bushmaster builds sort of a more standard NM.
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 8:34:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2002 4:34:30 AM EDT by Jimno2506]
Ok, here's what I've learned so far.
1) most manufactures are slow to return e-mails :-)
2) everyone makes the most accurate AR-15.
3)Accuracy (MOA)guarantees are as follows:
Les Baer: 0.5",
Fulton Armory: 0.5"
RRA: 0.75"
Wilson Tactical: 1.0"
Compass Lake: No Reply
Hatcher: No Reply
Bushmaster: No Reply
Metalcraft: No reply
OLYMPIC: 0.5"

I am only interested in the .223 chamber based on the accuracy advantage it has over it's military counterpart.

I am surprised that <modified> Colts are winners at Camp Perry. It is my belief that a custom gun, built from the ground up, would be more accurate than one that is reworked from a "factory" weapon. That is why my interest lies in the Les Baer and Hatcher.

Have I missed any worth checking out?

Thanks, and keep the info coming!!
Jimno
Link Posted: 9/16/2002 12:40:32 PM EDT
I found a couple very nice rifles in a local gunshop. A used RRA Varmint, and a Les Baer Super Match, 18" barrel. And yes the Les Baer had a target with two, five shot, one hole groups on it. I am in love.

Anyway, here is the question: "Why would I want a 24" barrel as most have on their Varmint model?" Is there going to be that great of a velocity gain? Normally shorter barrels are stiffer and therefore more accurate, and less likely to shift POI as it heats up. But downrange drop is a factor for varminting so the longer barrel is the norm. Where can I calculate the difference in velocity for these two barrels?

Thanks again.
Jimno

Link Posted: 9/17/2002 2:53:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jimno2506:
3)Accuracy (MOA)guarantees are as follows:
Les Baer: 0.5",
Fulton Armory: 0.5"
RRA: 0.75"
Wilson Tactical: 1.0"
Compass Lake: No Reply
Hatcher: No Reply
Bushmaster: No Reply
Metalcraft: No reply



Olympic is 1" with PCR-1.
PCR-1P says expect 1/2" MOA.

Link Posted: 9/17/2002 3:03:02 AM EDT


For the best in outta the box accuracy in an AR my choice is Colt's Accurized Rifle CR-6724 add a Jewell 2-stage trigger and and Leupold mil-dot, turreted scope, (rifle comes w/ scope mount) and you'll be on your way. Feed it (properly loaded) 77 SMKS and your there, don't get much better.

My 2cents,
Mike
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 4:35:47 AM EDT
I updated my list with the Olympic post from Mark, thanks.

My search continues.........


Jimno
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 8:32:41 PM EDT
"but the only thing that matters to me is accuracy"

If this is true, use the seach feature for the Competition Forums.

Your question has been beat to death many times in the Comp forum.

good luck!
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 8:57:15 PM EDT
I call bullshit on the 3.5" group @ 1000 yards. Maybe if you used 120+ gr VLD handloads w/ a 1.5" bull barrel over 30" long, with the receiver/barrel embedded in a 4 ton chunk of concrete...Preferably all in a vacuum.

Accuracy is what you can COUNT ON, not a fluke.

For "realistic" accuracy, I have a DPMS A3 with a JP Trigger, 20" Stainless 1" (broke-in correctly) barrel, Stainless receiver, free-floating handguard. 4.5-14 x 50 scope (cheapy). My best 100 yard (3 shot) group has been 1/8" with decent match ammo.

It will hold it's own against any "high dollar" rifle. Is an extra -1/8" @300 yards really worth an extra $1500?

Link Posted: 9/24/2002 4:29:50 PM EDT
This might be a kind of change of subject but im also a little new to ar15s. Looking to buy a AR15 kind of cheap prefferable used. Anyone have any ideas or sum old piece of shit sitting in the corner that they would like to sell reasonable cheap?
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