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Posted: 8/27/2002 5:42:25 PM EDT
I need help in convcining my dad that an ar-15 is worth the 700-1200 dollars they regularly cost. He thinks thats way too much to pay for any gun. He's never paid more than 600 for a gun but he hasn't bought a gun in a while. To compound it I might be losing my place where I can shoot pretty soon. Any advice?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 5:52:06 PM EDT
I believe Oly makes one called "the Plinker" (?) that sells for around $550, give or take a bit. That should help some convince your dad. But I have the same problem. I find it too difficult to spend a thousand bucks on any gun.

Surely there is somewhere else you could shoot, isn't there? If not, move.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 5:56:34 PM EDT
I spend way more than I should. A basic postban AR would be fine. But once you start looking around and learning more...you want more. Then it grows on you and it monopolizes your thoughts. Sort of a "Lord of the Rings" effect...before you know it you have 16 various firearms tricked out beyond anyone's logical comprehension outside your own...and of course everyone else on this board.

Justify it? Hell man, how do you justify NOT spending the money!

Link Posted: 8/27/2002 5:59:48 PM EDT
If you are "justifying" you are playing the game wrong.

Link Posted: 8/27/2002 6:01:37 PM EDT
How old are you? Is he paying for it or you? If you are paaying, now is the time to spend money on expensive toys. You have no real responsibilities(wife, kids...)Plus If you take care of it, it will last a lifetime and then some.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 6:04:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 6:12:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2002 6:13:38 PM EDT by CRC]
I could just go out and buy it. It's my money but having no place to shoot it, well it makes it several hundred bucks spent badly. I hardly shoot the guns I already have as it is. However, I want a post ban AR in case they are banned in 2004.

I shoot at my Grandmas in Pennsylvania but live in North Carolina. There is only 1 range near my house- a pistol range. I also don't want people here to know I shoot. Stolen guns are more common than you think.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 7:14:04 PM EDT
No flame intended but just maybe an AR15 isn't for you. You say you want one but are making all kinds of excuses not to get one.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 8:39:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2002 8:47:57 PM EDT by CRC]
Sukebe,

I'm not making excuses to not buy it- my dad is. He just doesn't think ARs are pratical. It's going to take some tough convincing. I'd love to have an AR. I think I will get one. My mom doesn't have a problem with it but she's not into guns.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 8:53:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2002 8:54:50 PM EDT by Dave_A]
Well, as for the price tag:

You can do it for under $600, and end up with a 100% major-brand rifle.

I just got done with building my 1st AR, and I spend $580 on it (in WI).



This gun is an Olympic Arms PCR-4 (i.e. 'A2' 20"). It's built on an Olympic forged lower, and it went together in about 2 hrs. The lower reciever was $125+tax from my local dealer, and the rest of the parts (including the assembled upper) I got from Oly for $424. The rest was WI tax on the lower & S&H on the upper. For this I got a full 20 inch rifle, with full A2 sights and heatshielded handguards (As opposed to the 'plinker' which has A1 sights, a 16 inch barrel, and no shielding, IIRC). It didn't need any special tools, either.

I haven't shot it yet (no local public range permits CF rifle shooting), but every function test went OK, and it fits my $9.99 Orlite 30s. I'll see how well it shoots (and how well I shoot, as my other guns are pistols) shortly.
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 9:19:35 PM EDT
If price is an issue go buy an AK.

Nah I'm kidding get the AR...then pick up an AK for the sheer raunchiness of owning one. I love mine! Wouldn't get rid of it for the world! But it'll always sit behind the AR in the safe. Sorry, I digress.

Go get an AR15 CRC... Less talk! More AR15!
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 11:24:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
I need help in convincing my dad that an ar-15 is worth the 700-1200 dollars they regularly cost. He thinks that's way too much to pay for any gun. He's never paid more than 600 for a gun but he hasn't bought a gun in a while. To compound it I might be losing my place where I can shoot pretty soon. Any advice?

CRC



I hate to be the burden of bad news, but I think your father is from the old school of thought that if your not hunting with the rifle, it's a waste. Buying the AR-15, will be the same as you buying a vette, just a waste of money in his eyes.

I used to hunt with my wife's father and even thought he carried a auto-5 shotgun, if he missed the first shot, he never took the second. He grew up using single shots and every shot missed was money lost.

Once, I dropped two shell out of my breech(o/u) when crossing a fence right into mud. Not about to put them back in a $2500 shotgun, I left them were they fell. Two days later, he and Jim collected them and used the rounds. Both had grown up on farms and the money was tight. Keep in mind, that at this time, Spud(wife's father) had retired with more money then he would every use, But still had the old school mind set.

My kids on the other hand, get handed ammo by the case (1K) and are told to practice until they get it right. My kids and myself, look at shooting as a hobby, not just putting food on the dinner plate.

You buying the AR rifle will just be a sore spot, and if you plan on practicing with the rifle(by the case of ammo, not just a few boxes ) your really going to upset your father.
What it comes down to is that you and your father will never see shooting the same way, and you should wait until you have your own life and the means to support it.

Hope this helps.



Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:00:28 AM EDT
Bottomline is "there is no justification". Most of us buy ARs for two reasons. One they are one heck of a fun cool rifle and the other is for nostalgic reasons. We slept with one in the military. As a hunting rifle (varmits only) it's a beautiful rifle but a bit over kill unless you planning on taking on a herd of river rats. Since the AR does not lend it's self to most states carry permits, most law abiding citizens will not reach for it first in a self defence crisis. Most will grab a handgun or shotgun. This is why we have to put up with all the "BS" laws surronding the AR and similar rifles. It's not the criminals for if it was NY NY would be the safest city in the country. It's people just don't understand that shooting is fun unless they shoot for fun. With this in mind, I don't think you will ever convince your dad unless you convince him to become a target shooter first. Then, with time, he too will insist on having an AR for it rules the range.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:13:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RIMF:
Bottomline is "there is no justification". Most of us buy ARs for two reasons. One they are one heck of a fun cool rifle and the other is for nostalgic reasons. We slept with one in the military.



"I did not have sexual relations with that rifle"

Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:50:13 AM EDT
Same reason you would want to buy a Harley Davidson or a Corvette. The AR is the "high performance sports car" of American made rifles-sleek, lightweight and fast. Part of it is mystique and part of it is functionality. If you want roughly equivalent functionality at lower cost, go with the "poor man's assault rifle" (MINI-14) or "hillbilly assault rifle" (Winchester Model 94 Trapper in 44 Mag.). I've got all three, and would part with none.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 11:08:26 AM EDT
How about an ArmaLite AR-180? From reports, the rifle is accurate, dependable, and in your price range. You can use AR-15 mags (plentiful, fairly cheap) and fire control parts for a really slick trigger. Much better than a mini IMHO. HTH
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:25:25 PM EDT
If it's been that long since he bought one for $600, convert that to today's dollars and see how much his last gun cost.

You said he doesn't think it's practical. What does he think is? What is he comparing it to?
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 3:59:36 PM EDT
With good handguns in upwards of $1000, and good rifles w/ scopes well over $1000-$1500, your dad is one of two things.

A cheap-ass MF and still doesn't understand that you get what you pay for.

Or he is just way old-school and really doesn't understand what rifles have become.

Even if he was a hunter, he should understand that your scope is going to cost more the the rifle. But I bet your father is a bushnell or a Tasco kind of guy.

Why the hell is your father part of this decision anyway?

Do you live at home?
Are you still under daddies arm?

Why don't you move out and live life alittle and prove to him that you can make decisions on your own, then buy an AR.

Sorry if I sound pissed, but I am..

I know too many people that still live with their parents and it makes me so fucking sick to my stomach.
Their personality, the way they treat others, their work ethic, everything.

Get the fuck out of the draft of your parents wings and grow a pair!!!

When I bought an AR, my father thought, WOW what a cool gun, you must have your reasons...
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 4:05:54 PM EDT
Want to justify the cost? You can shoot as accurately as a bolt action rifle, you can shoot 4 times faster and be 1000x's more abusive to it and not feel all that bad!

Change the upper and you now have another rifle.

I agree with building your own, it is easy and cheap. Start with the lower (under $200 for the parts), then when you're done, shop on ebay for a complete upper. Used guns have never been a problem for me.
Link Posted: 8/28/2002 10:08:02 PM EDT
Interesting thread here. An AR15 these days will sell for from $650 to $900 these days new. Yes, there are some with more features for more and if you have the time, knowledge, and patience you can save a hundred bucks (maybee) if you build it yourself. Like others have said, if this is too much money buy a Winchester M94 for $280 and be done with it. If this is still too much buy some gun magazinse and drool on the pictures. As for no place to shoot, check with all local gun shops untill you find a range. And by all means get yourself a gunsafe, even one of the sheetmetal ones screwed to the wall in your closet will stop all but the most determined theif. The more guns you have the better safe you might want.
Ar15's are great for many things, especially plinking, home defense, and varmint hunting. Get one and take a tactical carbine class, you will meet good people, lears safe and valuable shills, and have a great time!

Bill SP1
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 3:07:51 PM EDT
If you live in SoCal you'd know why you need an AR-15. After the Northridge quake, several neighborhoods reported trucks with young men circling the residential areas, searching for destroyed homes to loot. And don't forget the Los Angeles Riots (1965 and 1992); the pending trial of the Inglewood policeman accused of brutality; and possible civil unrest after a terrorist incident.

A Mini-14 will do nicely, I have one as a back up, but my AR-15 gives me an edge and increased confidence to handle another "quake," either geological or social.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 3:20:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 7:18:44 PM EDT
You could tell him about this guy from ohio who goes out and buys a $750 Bushmaster, then spends months tracking down a surplus military .22lr adapter for $100 then goes out to find a spare $300 upper for the adapter kit, just to get a plinking rifle just slightly more accurate than an off the shelf $150 Ruger 10/22.
While skipping lunches for a month to afford the whole getup.
But man does it look cool.

Bottom line is you will never justify it. If you live in his house, its his rules. If not, do what you want. For years my dad and I went round and round about sailboat v powerboat. I've now had both and can tell you that for the pure joy of being on the water I prefer sail. For practicality sake with a wife and four kids, I now have a power boat. These are in effect Luxury items and there really is no justification.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 9:14:19 PM EDT
Interesting place for my first post. Also somewhat of an ironic discussion as my son wanting a rifle got me back in the AR game after 20 years.

When I was in college I had a Colt AR-15 SP1. I loved it because it 'looked cool', was great fun to shoot etc. But I needed money for school, was getting married etc and ended up selling it much to my everlasting regret. Now here I am 20 years later and about a month ago bought a Bushmaster M4 type carbine for my son who is now the age I was when I had my Colt.

He'd gotten the itch but wanted something in a hurry so he was trying to talk me into any number of cheaply made military style rifles. I found myself pointing him back to the AR-15 based on my own experience all those years ago.

Once he got his and I got my hands on it, I had to have one too. I'm picking up my Bushmaster XM15 E2S 20in Barrel Rifle on Friday.

Bottom line is if Dad doesn't understand it, I don't know that you can convince him. My Dad tolerated it because it was important to me. Now for me being in the Dad role it will be something my son and I can share an interest in.

Just don't push too hard if the folks still have a say. Better to take the time to educate Dad a bit more instead of trying to force the issue.

Might want to send him here to read a bit. I've been lurking for a while, trying to get back up to AR speed and these guys really know their stuff.


Good luck
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 8:13:06 AM EDT
I'll just add my $0.02 to this interesting discussion, you can read it here:
groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/whyanar15.msnw
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 9:00:04 AM EDT
"He just doesn't think ARs are practical"

What rifle is MORE practical for general purpose use?

As a hunting rifle, it's not really ready for big game but it can do a good job on deer if you are accurate and know good shot placement...and if you don't have those skills and that knowledge, you shouldn't be hunting.

Some hunters object to the use of black, semiautomatic rifles. So what? Why do they object, anyway? When has having a second shot available NOW ever been a bad thing? And isn't a black rifle with no wood on it a more practical prospect for hunting than an expensive, finely finished work of art that you'd hate to get a scratch on? Some hunters won't hit a shooting position that might result in their precious oiled walnut stock getting scratched, so they miss opportunities to bag a big buck. What silliness. An all synthetic rifle is much more practical in the woods than a presentation grade one.

AR's are very accurate and reliable.

High capacity magazines can be VERY practical.

They're easy to maintain.

A minimum of tools are required for ANY servicing.

There isn't any rust-prone blued steel or relatively fragile walnut or wood stock that requires relatively gentle handling.

Rain won't bother it.

Adding any accessory you could ever imagine you'd need is stupid simple.

Caliber conversions are a simple matter. Just get a new upper and the appropriate magazines.

It's VERY cheap to shoot as centerfire rifles go. In fact, it's the cheapest.

A traditional bolt action hunting rifle isn't so well suited for a wide range of shooting conditions. AR's are at home in ANY situation, from close quarters room-to-room combat to winning the National Matches on the thousand yard range.

There simply IS no more flexible, versatile, configurable, and PRACTICAL rifle platform to be found anywhere. There's an AR for every shooting need short of hunting big game, and for that, the same practicality and general design can be found in the larger AR-10 in .308. (Other caliber conversions for the 10 are bound to appear, too.)

No question about it. The AR-15 is the most practical, general purpose rifle ever made.

I bought one, and my father bought one for himself shortly thereafter..at the age of 70!
We shoot together fairly regularly, too.
He likes his rifle a lot.

CJ

Link Posted: 9/10/2002 10:24:16 AM EDT
For what it's worth, I think you should consider building your own AR. I did < a week ago, for less than $600; tools inclusive.

Breakdown goes $130 for RRA lower at a gunshow, and $450 shipped for the J&T Distributing kit. $15 for a roll pin punch set.

Link to a mini review here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=139382 (Shameless self linkage)

By the way... I'm at a college that I commute to, so I'm still at home. The way I justified it to my dad.. It's neat. And $600 isn't a *terribly* large sum.

I agree with a previous poster.. get the toys while you're young! I don't have liabilities yet, but I can see they're coming like a wall of bricks...
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 10:28:25 AM EDT
I'd agree with CM Johnson - except the AR is perfectly capable of hunting 'Big Game'. Back in the old days they used to hunt 'Big Game' with single shot .45-70s.

Now you can get a Beawulf .50 or SOCOM .458 upper which has identical OR BETTER ballistics than the .45-70 loadings back then. As a bonus you get it in SEMI-AUTOMATIC.

Want to hunt bigger game? Get a .50 BMG upper and you can hunt Wales (if your an Oregon Indian).
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 12:41:22 PM EDT
Guys,

I think it also has to do with he's had problems with the semi-autos he owned in the past. His thing is I should get a lightweight bolt rifle for hunting in the mountains (we hunt in the mountains)- that I'd use it more. I would like to get an AR before they're banned. Also don't read this that he is for banning ARs or such. He is against the AWB and gun control. He still thinks 800 dollars is too much for ANY rifle.

CRC
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