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Posted: 12/10/2001 3:51:25 PM EDT
Hey Guys, What do you all carry for a back up gun? I need some ideas. MUST be 38spl or .380 auto or larger, at least 5 rounds. I am thinking small so something along the lines of the new NAA 380 guardian maybe. Any thoughts?
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:19:48 PM EDT
I use a Glock 19 for my Primary, so the logical choice for a secondary was a Glock 26. Ammo compatibility, identical controls, and the secondary will accept the primaries spare mags.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:29:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2001 4:26:43 PM EDT by Waverunner]
Glock 26 or if you want smaller(thinner, single stack) a Kahr I personally carry a G26 all the time. It accepts LE 10+2 magazines and G19 LE Mags no prob, that's versatility!
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:44:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2001 4:37:30 PM EDT by LE6920]
Unfortunately I don't carry a Glock, could but have a HK USP 45 for tact and USP-C 45 for plainclothes. The Kahr is an option, but I have seen some that are pretty heavy! Maybe there is a lighter version out now. The Glock 26 with 17 or 19 mags in it is a full size gun pretty much! But they do hold a lot of rounds. The new Glock 36 45ACP may be an option also. This is more of a hideaway backup, weight and size to the minimum.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 4:45:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 5:15:58 PM EDT
We issue the Glock 22, so a G27 would make the most sense. Well, I tried it. Too damn heavy and bulky. I went back to my S&W 642. I shoot it as well as I do the Glock, and I shoot Master. I wear it in a Desantis ankle holster both on and off duty. Here in Florida, we don't get to wear all of the bulky clothing that hides a larger pistol. I have tried many different pistols for back up's, but have never found one that is as reliable, and just accurate like a Smith J frame. And we shoot the standard FDLE course out to 25 yards with the backups.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 5:47:23 PM EDT
I am only a volunteer with our Sheriff's Office, but occasionally I spend a little time at the range. What I have seen is that when the full size Glock mags are used with the short gripped off duty guns, failures to properly cycle are quite common. I'm told (by the CRO, a Glock trained armorer) that it is due to the lower fingers lapping over the bottom of the grip, pressing on the mag and causing it to cock in the grip and to not present the next round properly. Is this true with only certain calibers/models? It would certainly cause me to question using duty mags with a backup. TrickyVic.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:09:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:20:58 PM EDT
It's a back up, a life preserver if you will. I'm not fighting crime with it. Kel Tec P32.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:22:23 PM EDT
I work in Southern California and have no trouble "concealing" a Glock 26 under my uniform shirt. Does it print, hell yes, but for uniformed patrol it doesnt matter. You are just as likely to need to reload your secondary as your primary. In one instance in a fight with a 918V, at night in a trailer park, the 918V litteraly ripped the entire holstered SW5904 off of one of our officers sam brown belts. Leaving the 918V with a 16 round 9mm, the officer was armed with his secondary. You cant just quit and go home in this type of situation. You still have to handle your call, but now the mental patient is armed with your weapon and on his home turf. You will want to have spare ammo for your secondary. BTW; all our POST certified retention training never even addressed the holster being literally ripped off the belt in one pull.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:40:32 PM EDT
AR15fan, In the situation you described I would have to beat a hasty retreat if at all possible. Regroup with friends and go at it again.
Link Posted: 12/10/2001 7:49:38 PM EDT
If your backup prints under a uniform shirt, you might want to re-consider where you carry it. Lot's of my folks carry G27's and even G23's concealed in the side panel area of the vest. DeSantis even makes a holster for this type carry. The pistol does not print, and is as comfortable as you can get while wearing a vest in 90% humidity and 100f weather. I no longer carry the Glock 27 because I have a knee blown courtesy of a woman driver who T boned me, and am currently recovering from a broken back (crushed L2 vert.). Weight does make a helluva difference for me. The best back up, is of course one that readily uses the ammo your duty pistol uses. To take that to the modern day, it uses the same magazine as well. But if for some reason you can't do this, the next best alternative is to have one! As to the Glock 26/27 having feeding problems from hi-cap mags, I have never ever seen any problem. We have several dozen G27's, and with the course of fire and required mag changes, almost everyone uses hi-cap G22 mags. New one on me, and I have been a Glock armorer since 1994. (about to go for my 3d re-cert)
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 4:39:04 AM EDT
I love my S&W Model 642 in an ankle holster
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 5:03:13 AM EDT
Most of our guys carry one of the compact Glocks or airweight Smiths. I carry a Taurus snub .38 with +P's in ankle holster. The Taurus fit my hand better (ie better control and shot placement). I also carry a Bianchi strip with extra rounds in my pocket. During some situations, I carry a Beretta Tomcat .32 in my pocket. Not as potent as .38 but a nice "get off me" weapon. Service weapon is Sig P229 .40.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 5:10:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2001 5:07:13 AM EDT by gsx678]
Well, We are issued Beretta 96 DAO's. They SUCK in a big way.The double single is ok. As for a secondary I carry a Glock model 30. I also have a model 21 so the choice of the 30 was easy.I looked at the 36 and quite frankly there is no height or length differences between the two.To me it's not worth losing 4 rounds unless it is a smaller package.So thumbs down on the Glock model 36. Sorry GLOCK, But I still Love you and you are my 1st. choice. Now if my department didn't have so many rules as to what we can carry my choice would be easy. A 1911 Officers size in 45.In stainless. But what else is there besides 45? Well hope this helps.Always remember 45. Glock for it's simplicity and the 1911 style for it's 90 years of proof and you can't go wrong. GSX OOPS, I almost forgot the MOST important thing,The final choice is what you are comfortable with.BUT, NEVER EVER go with anything less than a 9mm. for your own safety. Unless of course you just want to wound him.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 8:35:40 AM EDT
I actually prefer something like the S&W 442 Airweight with Winchester .38spl. 147gr subsonic JHP. My Airweight is not +P rated. My rational for this choice: Light weight. No exposed hammer. Reliability (if the cylinder can turn, the weapon will function). Adaptability (can be used in either hand, upside down, sideways, little finger on the trigger,etc. without concern for a reciprocating slide or space confinement). The five shot .38spl. is adequate for a last ditch defense. I would not carry a backup weapon, even a knife, in an ankle holster while in uniform. Our institutes of higher criminal learning supposedly teaching their graduates to go for a cop's ankles during ground combat. I will not claim that I'm 100% certain that this phenomenon has happened to me, but I have had occasions when I believe that that is exactly what the "dement" was trying to do. A vest carry is a better way to go. Mike
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 10:31:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: I use a Glock 19 for my Primary, so the logical choice for a secondary was a Glock 26. Ammo compatibility, identical controls, and the secondary will accept the primaries spare mags.
View Quote
same here, when seconds count, I don't want to be fumbling with different types of ammo/magazines
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 12:17:23 PM EDT
BUT, NEVER EVER go with anything less than a 9mm. for your own safety. Unless of course you just want to wound him. [/quote] Do you consider 38spl to be less than 9mm? How about .380? Both CAN be effective stoppers if employed correctly. We are talking last ditch defense, a gun that is a hide away. Will a 38spl or 380 to the head or CNS do more than wound? The glock 30 is a big gun to carry as back up. Might as well carry another HK USP-C 45 in a shoulder rig! I am thinking a light weight 38 spl may be the way to go.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 1:45:08 PM EDT
Hi LE6920, I do believe that the .38spl. can be effective. As to whether or not it is better, worse or equivalent to the .380auto, I'm not qualified to answer. I don't think that I would have major concerns carrying a good .380 as a backup, I just prefer the simplicity of the revolver. When considering a last ditch backup handgun, having common ammunition and magazines might be important to some, but I took other factors into account, as per my post above. Let us hope we never have to find out if we made the right choice. Be safe all, Mike
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 2:23:40 PM EDT
I am issued a Glock 22. Sometimes I carry a 23 in my vest. I have a 27 but don't like it. Sometimes I carry a S&W 442 in an ankle rig. I also have a Kel-Tec .32 that I will sometimes put in a front shirt pocket. By the way I only carry one of these at a time. However I do have a NAA mini revolver that I always keep in my front pants pocket.
Link Posted: 12/11/2001 4:56:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 9:18:19 AM EDT
Our rather primative and outdated agency prohibits backups, so that should tell you I don't carry one. We are also required to carry our state issue on duty. I would love to hear from folks about their agency's policy regarding backups as well as from agencies that allow on duty personally owned weapons. Fortunately we are undergoing some major changes and there may be an opportunity to propose some changes. Any information is greatly appreciated. AJ
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 1:25:32 PM EDT
I carry a Sig 226 in .40 for duty and a G27 for backup on my ankle in a DeSantis. Will probably switch to a Sig 239, better compatablity to the 226, on my ankle when funds are better. My dept. does not require a back-up weapon and we have to purchase them if we chose to carry. They also state that they will not back us up if we get involved in an off duty shooting...Bob
Link Posted: 12/12/2001 8:46:08 PM EDT
I have an NAA 380 and have been very pleased. Probably only 300 rounds through it so far, but no problems. It is a bit chuncky for front pocket carry, but should be a piece of cake on the ankle. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:39:59 AM EDT
Glock 30 in a vest holster. I used to carry a Glock 21 as my duty weapon, so the same trigger and common magazines made sense. Since then, my agency issues SIGs and requires you to carry the issued weapon, and my wife won't let me buy another weapon. It does "print" pretty badly through my shirt. I recently got dinged for it on a scheduled personnel evaluation. I appealed it and it was overturned by my Captain. He thought it didn't print that badly, and did not want anyone getting the wrong message that an evaluation was more important than carrying a back-up (our agency encourages officers to carry back-ups).
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:11:59 AM EDT
Beretta 380 with two spare magazines. I'm a bike cop, and wear a polo shirt and shorts for uniform wear. Anything bigger prints like crazy. I tried those holsters that attach to the vest straps with very poor results, (My backup ended up UNDER the vest during a fight) and now just use a Galco shoulder rig. Our issued armor does not have side panels.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 1:11:20 PM EDT
Like body armor, only get one that is small and light enough that you will ACTUALLY suit up with it EVERYDAY, in the SAME PLACE, ALL the time. Some officers on my dept. get one, then sh*tcan it after a couple of weeks, citing that they didn't realize it would be so heavy, etc. My personal choice is a S&W 442 with 125 gr. Remington Golden Saber JHP +P. I have carried a couple different autos over the years and due to the absolute CRAP that gets all over an ankle gun, I only felt comfortable with a small revolver. Said exactly right above, it's not for crimefighting, it's to pull when the sh*t has hit the fan and you are about to be killed at close range and duty gun is unavailable. Lastly, be realistic when you train. Practice firing it after being knocked on your butt and drawing it weak handed, etc.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:56:55 PM EDT
Seecamp 32 in a cuff case on the duty belt with the Winchester Silvertips. Never had to use it and hope I never will.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 3:04:26 AM EDT
Glock 27 on the vest. If you will size your shirts one size up, then your print problems will be minimalized. You still can tell something is there but only if you are REALLY looking for it. The butt of my G27 sticks out just a tad but it looks like something is in my pocket. HiCap, My agency as do many here in Texas, allow you to carry pretty much what you want...... Thank God for Texas! Officers will shoot better and qualify better if they are allowed to carry what pistol they are most comfortable with. If you ain't wearing a vest and not carrying a backup - rethink it. The backup issue is pretty much settled after the "Onion Field" incident. Had the officer that was put in the rear of the patrol car been carrying a backup, there wouldn't have been an issue and two dead officers, to write a book about! If you are graduate of Calibre Press' Street Survival, then you know how much they stress it and for good reason. If you ain't gone - go! It's worth it! I think I said this earlier somewhere here?????? [>:/]
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 7:00:43 PM EDT
Kahr P9 with Trijicon night sights. Polymer frame (nice and light), stainless slide (can sweat on it all day). Outshoots my Glock 9mm's out to 25 yards, comfortable to shoot. Nice and flat, much easier to carry than a mini-Glock. Weighs much less than the steel-framed Kahrs. Mine feeds everything I give it, never burped.
Link Posted: 12/16/2001 7:04:19 PM EDT
S&W M-42, with 158gr. SWPHP's in Galco ankle rig. Nothing better in my opinion...
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 9:25:16 AM EDT
Glock 26s, Kahr's? Ha! Standard backup to the M4 or M16 is the M9 (beretta 92's) with 15 round clips. Also, have the option to use a variety of other (better) weapons. Favorite is custom 14 round 1911 or Glock 20 with 15+2 round clips and hot ammo. Revolver is better for low crawls. Who's ever carrying a Kel-tech you need to dump it. Great features (small and light) but poor execution and very unreliable.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 9:32:25 AM EDT
I just recently started carrying my SW 4013TSW as a backup. It's a little bigger, but just as good as my glock. Somedays I'm in the mood for a glock, some days I'm not.
Link Posted: 12/18/2001 4:17:45 PM EDT
During our Glock armorer's school, our instuctor told us that they did not recommend to put a full size glock magazine into a compact glock because pressure on the magazine may cause a malfunction. However, if your Glock is empty, it isn't any better than a brick and if a full size magazine is all that you have . . .
Originally Posted By TrickyVic: I am only a volunteer with our Sheriff's Office, but occasionally I spend a little time at the range. What I have seen is that when the full size Glock mags are used with the short gripped off duty guns, failures to properly cycle are quite common. I'm told (by the CRO, a Glock trained armorer) that it is due to the lower fingers lapping over the bottom of the grip, pressing on the mag and causing it to cock in the grip and to not present the next round properly. Is this true with only certain calibers/models? It would certainly cause me to question using duty mags with a backup. TrickyVic.
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/18/2001 4:23:49 PM EDT
My favorite backup gun is a custom Smith and Wesson 640 stainless. It is small, ported and has a smooth cylinder. It fits well in an ankle holster. The porting tames a .357 magnum load, but requires a little practice to prevent powder burns if the weapon is fired up next to your body.
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