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Posted: 3/27/2006 7:01:23 AM EDT

My squad has decided to purchase 5.7's . We got em on order, but I'm starting to pull my hair out

trying to find holsters, preferably Level II or III. I've googled till I can't google anymore.


Someone please point me to some sources . . . . . . .
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 7:24:58 AM EDT by Bucky145]
I'm not too up on the 5.7 but why did you decide on that handgun? I have never heard anything good about the 5.7 for duty use. As far as duty holsters I'm sure someone here will have some good links.

Maybe call Streicher's. They sell the 5.7 in their police equipment catalog.

Minneapolis
Corporate Headquarters/Ordering Center/Showroom
Streicher's
10911 W. Highway 55
Minneapolis, MN 55441-0398
(800) 367-3763 Toll-Free Phone
(800) 566-6776 Toll-Free Fax

Milwaukee
Branch Location/Showroom Streicher's
4777 N. 124th Street
Milwaukee, WI 53007
(800) 541-4164 Toll-Free Phone
(262) 781-0444 24-Hour Fax

I'm waiting for the Springfield XD ACP Tactical or Service model holsters to come out. I want one that will accept a weapon mounted light.

Bucky
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:44:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bucky145:
I'm not too up on the 5.7 but why did you decide on that handgun? I have never heard anything good about the 5.7 for duty use. As far as duty holsters I'm sure someone here will have some good links.

Maybe call Streicher's. They sell the 5.7 in their police equipment catalog.

Minneapolis
Corporate Headquarters/Ordering Center/Showroom
Streicher's
10911 W. Highway 55
Minneapolis, MN 55441-0398
(800) 367-3763 Toll-Free Phone
(800) 566-6776 Toll-Free Fax

Milwaukee
Branch Location/Showroom Streicher's
4777 N. 124th Street
Milwaukee, WI 53007
(800) 541-4164 Toll-Free Phone
(262) 781-0444 24-Hour Fax

I'm waiting for the Springfield XD ACP Tactical or Service model holsters to come out. I want one that will accept a weapon mounted light.

Bucky



Thanks for the info.

You "heard"? I'll being doing some tests on a car door, 2x4, etc. Wednesday

As to why we chose the 5.7, well, long story, but it involves getting over the "size is everything"

crowd, and getting with 21st century bullet performance. I believe ALL rounds will work when

employed in thier respective capacity, and shot placement being equal.

There was an incident approx. 2-3 weeks ago here in Baton Rouge where a BRPD officer made a

traffic stop, it went downhill after the officer attempted to arrest the subject for trying to bribe him.

The subject was much larger than the officer, and overpowered him. When the officer hit the ground,

the subject got on top and proceeded to beat the officer in the face with his fists. A citizen with

a valid CCL came over, told the man to stop, which he did not, and then shot the subject THREE

times in the back with his CCW .45 acp. The subject continued his attack, and the citizen fired

one more round to the subject's head, ending his attack. The officer just got out of the hospital

with a broken jaw and other injuries. (I think you could find the article at www.theadvocate.com)

See where I'm coming from with the whole caliber debate?

Plus, We're getting AP ammo through the department. I love my job.(well, most of the time)
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:55:07 AM EDT
And the AP ammo won't overpenetrate??

I am sorry to disappoint you if you think one round from your FN would have solved the problem better than the citizen's .45.

Criminals have been known to fight through injuries which will inevitably kill them. I wacthed a guy run with half a lung and his heart blwon to bits. He still ran 60'. And that was with a shotgun.

With an oddball gun, good luck. Just wait til' you want to put a light on there....even further limitations for holster selection.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:08:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 3:10:33 PM EDT by ColtRifle]
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7. The 5.7 was made for one thing, punching through armor.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


Don't think you'll find too many duty holsters because no one takes the 5.7 seriously enough for a major manufacturer to produce a duty holster. I'd call Safariland and ask them. They might be able to help but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:11:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 3:11:53 PM EDT by AZ-K9]

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


+1 Billion.

Holy shit.

Those things are cluncky POS's, aside from being non-fragmenting ice pick shooters. Good luck!

You'd be better off with AR pistols.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:13:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARmory04:
My squad has decided to purchase 5.7's . We got em on order, but I'm starting to pull my hair out

trying to find holsters, preferably Level II or III. I've googled till I can't google anymore.


Someone please point me to some sources . . . . . . .



Are you actually a police officer? What agency is allowing this?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:16:35 PM EDT
I can't believe a real LEO agency would even condider the FN as a duty weapon.
Whoever thought that one up should be put on meter maid duty.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:09:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RDP:
And the AP ammo won't overpenetrate??

I am sorry to disappoint you if you think one round from your FN would have solved the problem better than the citizen's .45.

Criminals have been known to fight through injuries which will inevitably kill them. I wacthed a guy run with half a lung and his heart blwon to bits. He still ran 60'. And that was with a shotgun.

With an oddball gun, good luck. Just wait til' you want to put a light on there....even further limitations for holster selection.





I never said anything about the 5.7 "solving the problem better".

I know what criminals can do, and have done in the past.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:11:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7. The 5.7 was made for one thing, punching through armor.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


Don't think you'll find too many duty holsters because no one takes the 5.7 seriously enough for a major manufacturer to produce a duty holster. I'd call Safariland and ask them. They might be able to help but I wouldn't get my hopes up.





I didn't plan on carrying nothing but AP. I simply look at it as another option . . . . . .
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:13:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


+1 Billion.

Holy shit.

Those things are cluncky POS's, aside from being non-fragmenting ice pick shooters. Good luck!

You'd be better off with AR pistols.



Thanks for the link and info
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:18:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By ARmory04:
My squad has decided to purchase 5.7's . We got em on order, but I'm starting to pull my hair out

trying to find holsters, preferably Level II or III. I've googled till I can't google anymore.


Someone please point me to some sources . . . . . . .



Are you actually a police officer? What agency is allowing this?





What a comment . . . .

Yes, I am. New Roads Police Dept., a plain ole street grunt. If you're a fellow officer somewhere,

I'm sorry your agency doesn't trust you enough to allow you to make other choices of sidearms

other than issue; as it has obviously scarred you . . . . . .
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:23:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I can't believe a real LEO agency would even condider the FN as a duty weapon.
Whoever thought that one up should be put on meter maid duty.





Thanks for the support from some of my fellow officers for possible holster options.

Arfcomism has even struck the Brothers of the Shield side.


My Corporal gets a new pistol to try out for awhile, my squad thinks of being a team so we all

decide to get one if the tests are promising Wednesday, I come here to check holster options,

and I get someone asking if I'm really a police officer, and other slams.

Fuckin A' . . . . . . .
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:23:43 PM EDT
ok before anyone smashes on this post anymore they should go back and re-read the original post. He said his "squad", this does not necessarily mean the whole police department. He might be on a really well funded swat team that uses the FN P90 as an entry weapon for its small size and AP capability and they want a sidearm that takes the same caliber. Ive actually heard rumor that Houston is thinking about this. Anyhow i think that the 5.7 is and excellent idea and there are many more psychos out there today with body armor off of ebay for $200 than many of you think. There was a horrific court house shooting in Tyler texas a few months ago where a man was wearing body armor and wielding a AK-47. He killed a CCW holder and another cop and led them on a 45 minute chase before finally being caught. No conventional pistol round was capable of penetrating his vest and injuring him but a 5.7 would have and at least done more damage than a .45. I personally would consider carrying a 5.7 if one was offered to me but i think i would also shoot anyone i deployed it against like 20 times or whatever the magazine capacity is on those things. You would go to court for excessive use of force and try to explain that it was a 5.7 and the suspect didnt even realize he was hit until you were halfway through your second mag!
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:41:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARmory04:

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


+1 Billion.

Holy shit.

Those things are cluncky POS's, aside from being non-fragmenting ice pick shooters. Good luck!

You'd be better off with AR pistols.



Thanks for the link and info


There are no duty holsters, because no agency has been retarded enough (Dear God, I hope I'm right)to adopt them.

This has nothing to do with ARFCOMISM, Gucci gear or any name you wanna call it, it's about protecting the public and officers, which the 5.7 does a shitty job of. There are some situations where it may excel (soft armored bad guys), but for DUTY USE, it is tEH SUXXOR.

You might try 10-8 forums.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:48:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By ARmory04:

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The FN 5.7 ballistics suck.

Re. your comment about the .45: Nothing is perfect but the .45 or other caliber will be MUCH better than a 5.7.

As far as AP ammo.....do you shoot a lot of bad guys wearing armor?


+1 Billion.

Holy shit.

Those things are cluncky POS's, aside from being non-fragmenting ice pick shooters. Good luck!

You'd be better off with AR pistols.



Thanks for the link and info


There are no duty holsters, because no agency has been retarded enough (Dear God, I hope I'm right)to adopt them.

This has nothing to do with ARFCOMISM, Gucci gear or any name you wanna call it, it's about protecting the public and officers, which the 5.7 does a shitty job of. There are some situations where it may excel (soft armored bad guys), but for DUTY USE, it is tEH SUXXOR.

You might try 10-8 forums.




Yes some statements are full of "Arfcomism"; like yours that simply insult my agency and

myself, but yet do not answer my simple request of 5.7 holster makers. I never asked anyones'

opinion about 5.7 effectiveness. Damn.

Thanks again for nothing . . . . . . . . .
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 5:05:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARmory04:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I can't believe a real LEO agency would even condider the FN as a duty weapon.
Whoever thought that one up should be put on meter maid duty.





Thanks for the support from some of my fellow officers for possible holster options.

Arfcomism has even struck the Brothers of the Shield side.


My Corporal gets a new pistol to try out for awhile, my squad thinks of being a team so we all

decide to get one if the tests are promising Wednesday, I come here to check holster options,

and I get someone asking if I'm really a police officer, and other slams.

Fuckin A' . . . . . . .



So is this one person wanting to try out something new or is this a department switch?

Also the lack of true duty holsters for this weapon should tell you something. They are not suitable for duty applications.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 5:13:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By ARmory04:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I can't believe a real LEO agency would even condider the FN as a duty weapon.
Whoever thought that one up should be put on meter maid duty.





Thanks for the support from some of my fellow officers for possible holster options.

Arfcomism has even struck the Brothers of the Shield side.


My Corporal gets a new pistol to try out for awhile, my squad thinks of being a team so we all

decide to get one if the tests are promising Wednesday, I come here to check holster options,

and I get someone asking if I'm really a police officer, and other slams.

Fuckin A' . . . . . . .



So is this one person wanting to try out something new or is this a department switch?

Also the lack of true duty holsters for this weapon should tell you something. They are not suitable for duty applications.





My Corporal wanted to try something new. After battling with comments here, and

searching sites on my own elsewhere, I've started to see your last point.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:35:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 7:36:44 PM EDT by ColtRifle]

Originally Posted By ARmory04:


Yes some statements are full of "Arfcomism"; like yours that simply insult my agency and

myself, but yet do not answer my simple request of 5.7 holster makers. I never asked anyones'

opinion about 5.7 effectiveness. Damn.

Thanks again for nothing . . . . . . . . .




No need to be an ass. Did you call Safariland like I suggested above?

What research have you done about the terminal ballistics of the 5.7?




Originally posted by hkusp9

ok before anyone smashes on this post anymore they should go back and re-read the original post. He said his "squad", this does not necessarily mean the whole police department. He might be on a really well funded swat team that uses the FN P90 as an entry weapon for its small size and AP capability and they want a sidearm that takes the same caliber. Ive actually heard rumor that Houston is thinking about this. Anyhow i think that the 5.7 is and excellent idea and there are many more psychos out there today with body armor off of ebay for $200 than many of you think. There was a horrific court house shooting in Tyler texas a few months ago where a man was wearing body armor and wielding a AK-47. He killed a CCW holder and another cop and led them on a 45 minute chase before finally being caught. No conventional pistol round was capable of penetrating his vest and injuring him but a 5.7 would have and at least done more damage than a .45. I personally would consider carrying a 5.7 if one was offered to me but i think i would also shoot anyone i deployed it against like 20 times or whatever the magazine capacity is on those things. You would go to court for excessive use of force and try to explain that it was a 5.7 and the suspect didnt even realize he was hit until you were halfway through your second mag!



If your primary worry is penetrating body armor, you need a rifle. Like the AR!! Most cops involved in shootings don't shoot people wearing armor. That's why you need a rifle in the car. For those rare times you MIGHT run into a bad guy in armor.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:42:12 PM EDT
ARmory04
I just wanted to let you konw that Duluth, Ga. P.D. as well as Lawrenceville, Ga. P.D. are both carrying the 5.7's as duty weapons. I am sure both agenceys would be more than happy to assist in holster info.

Retired 335
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:54:23 PM EDT
Armory04,
Also look under FiveseveN forums.com.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:41:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 7:03:26 AM EDT by Johninaustin]
Guys, his town has less than 5K population and covers 4.5 square miles. The police dept apparently has 20 employees, 6 part time. It's the biggest employer in the town aside from the two elementary schools.

The nearest city is Baton Rouge. (26 miles) (citydata.com) I can't find crime stats for his city, but the whole parish has 22K residents.

Consider this quote: As to why we chose the 5.7, well, long story, but it involves getting ovethe "size is everything" crowd, and getting with 21st century bullet performance

Dude, this is a typical rookie thing. You've found a neat whiz-bang piece of equipment and are looking for justification to carry it. Therefore you believe the sales brochures.

Think for a second, what advantages does this weapon give you? What are the downsides? (you've already found one, no one makes a duty holster for it)

If you want anti-armor, all well and good, but this pistol isn't going to give it to you without some pretty serious tradoffs. Get an AR and gain a REAL jump in capability.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:20:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 10:28:10 AM EDT by Bucky145]
ARmory04

Well, sorry to have touched off the anti 5.7 comments. I believe the LEOs here are trying to stop you from making a mistake by going to the 5.7. Although some of the comments were harsh. Many LEOs do not like to sit by quietly and watch another LEO buy something that may not perform well. Perhaps someone here can explain further why the terminal ballistics of the 5.7 are not too good for normal patrol duty use.

Armory04 if you go to the 5.7 pistol, is your department worried about the high cost of the ammo and availability cutting into the amount of live fire time? Also, does the 5.7 pistol take the same ammo as the FN PS90? If so, is your department going to buy the PS90 for a squad rifle to keep the ammuntion standardized?

Just for the record I'm not a fan of the 5.7. I would try to explain the terminal ballistics but I would likely screw it up and will defer to someone more knowledgeable here. Right now I have an AR, 870 less lethal (super sock), taser, and am looking at the Sprinfield XD 45 as my new pistol. Right now I have a department 4506 .

Bucky

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:39:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2006 10:41:07 AM EDT by AZ-K9]





We have covered this before--next time do a search.

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.



From here
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:50:11 AM EDT
I have some links at home, I'll try and dig them out when I get off.

I remember the shootout you refer to. Only a headshot with a .45 worked. This incident proves the point that shot placement is more critical then caliber. It sounds like nothing would have stopped this guy but a solid hit in the brain box, and in that regard the 5.7 would probably have worked, but no better then the .45 that was used.

I don't think anyone here was trying to slam you, or bash you. But there are quite a few officers here who will try to help you avoid a bad piece of gear.

The 5.7 was highly touted when it first came out, and a lot of local agencies here looked at it. They opted to not adopt it for a variety of reasons. If you are dead set on it, I wish you luck. But be prepared, there may be some public relations backlash, especially with all the democraps waging war on the 5.7 right now.

I'll find my links and get them to you later on.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 11:24:14 AM EDT
i can understand interest in the 5.7 platform as i mentioned above but i also have to digress and agree with the person who posted above, i would much rather have a .40 or .45 on my hip and a big black tactical freaking AR in my car than just a 5.7 on my side. Does you department allow you to carry a rifle in your patrol vechicle or not, because that might affect my opinion on wether to carry a 5.7
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 6:17:44 PM EDT
I would not trust my life to a 5.7 round and that pistol is a POS. Take one apart and look at all the springs... Way too many moving parts bc of the slide velocity. It is going to have parts breakage at low round count and it will have a short service life...velocity comes at a price.

Get a .40 and train.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:38:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:38:48 AM EDT by NorCal_LEO]
At originator's request
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