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Posted: 3/15/2006 9:27:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2006 9:31:26 PM EDT by Glockster19]
to start our department is having training which is to help some other members from our FD and also many from surrounding FD's fire one certified before they swap to the J+B courses,

well we aquired a old house trailer which was perfect to send the rookies in and pound on the walls, cut holes in the roof, and do multiple room fires, and also search and rescue operations, typical training, i was assigned the igniter and attack crew inst.

the day started out well, we were having many good runs at the live fire burns, and like always in the other end of the trailor we would place a FF with full PPE in place and SCBA, as the attack crew got inplace we would send a SR crew in to do a primary search, first blooper was a guy who apparently freeked, while in the dense smoke and pulled his mask off and inhaled some smoke, but was to big headed to just bail out at the sign of trouble with breathing, and kept going, needles to say we had to drag him out and he was having trouble breathing and couldn't catch his breath, he breathed through a oxygen mask for 15 mins

as i kept building some nice rolling fires the same guy eventually made it to the second rotation on attack crews, i had noticed this, and to make things worse he was on the nozzle for the first time today! now i had high hopes of coaxing him through this and teaching him the ropes of working in a enviroment that was unknown, and more importantly no visability! as we entered, i made sure to go second in line, and the fire was great, you could count every board on the pallet and could see the far corner of the room clearly, as he enetered he totaly lost it and flung the bail open, instant loss of visabiity, as i knew there was soon to be a problem , i threw my hand on his neck and pulled him to the floor as he was trying to stand up, then i piled my other hand onto his mask and forced it to his fase, i then yelled to him everything is fine and the fire isnt gonna bite you unless you pull that that mask off, as i was forcing it to his face i exsplained we were gonna sit in here for a min and get to know whats it like to be in some heat, and smoke, then i pointed the nozzle towards the direction of the vent window, and told him to hyd, vent! as he opened the bail, and started to clear smoke his low air alarm went off, and he totaly freaked, he shut the hose down and bagan to force his way to the door, as i radioed i was sending a man out and we would be exiting the building and Back up would need to take this fire on! when we got out side i was stunned and tried to keep cool, after all it was the second time this guy had taken his mask off and now had breathing problems again!

the rest of the day went pretty good except for the last and final intro to fire the rookies had coming, the trailer was old enoguh to have metal roofing, and also metal siding, i knew this was gonna be fun for the guys, our last task was to set a fire in a midship room and sit at the end of the trailer and watch the fire progress,

the fire took great, and within 40 seconds was rolling over head and within a min 30ft and down the wall in back of us, then as usual they were all saying wow fuckin awesome, and then the heat dropped to the floor and 3-4 guys bailed outside , still with 15 men inside another FF and I had the duty to be the last out and make sure we were PAR, so we sat and sat and i was on the floor on my back at this time making my way towards the back wall where everyone else was, as i observed the fire i quickly made the decission it was time to leave, as i ordered everyone bail out most were making their way, while 3 guys sat trying to be the tough guy who lastest longest, by this time my ears are starting to melt off and my gear changed from blue to red, as i notice the smoke change from dark grey to a lighter white color and smoke droping and lifting off the floor i knew things could get ugly fast, me and my buddy were forced to grab the remaining tough guys and literaly throw them out the door, as i had flames licking at me from what seemed to be right infront of me , when we got out sside i was furious but i went up the hill and sat and watched as i knew what could have happened, we almost got to witness a white smoke exsplosion, needless to say my day was either fun and or eventful but im just thankful there were no major happenings,

as to my gear my helmet look like this now and my coat changed from a nice dark blue to a ugly burnt red color eeerrrrrrrrr!


but i just figured i would share a story of overall a good controlled burn now if we could just control a few of the "hotheads"

do you guys and or gals have any stories to tell
Glockster19
Prayers to fallin brothers
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 5:36:27 AM EDT
I wouldn't want to do a house burn in a trailer.

And our (vol) dept is very fourtinate as we have our own tower and our new guys see alot of fire before they ever crawl into a burning building.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:00:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I wouldn't want to do a house burn in a trailer.


+100 to that! They burn too fast for my liking - light `em up, and they're OFF!

Granted, not everybody has access to a dedicated burn-building, but IMHO, that's the best way to
go if you can for the noobs. Let them see fire behavior starting small, then building up, in an environment
that can, more or less, be controlled, versus in an actual structure where there's so many unknowns
or aspects out of your control.

As for the guy who kept freaking, I don't know what to say. I don't want to talk trash about the guy,
as I don't know him, (and everybody has a bad day occasionally), but I'd be doing some serious
thinking before I'd consider going through the door with him again. Losing it on the nozzle like that,
or if you're on the nozzle, and he's pulling for you, only to look back and he's hauled ass, that can
put you (or another member) in a real world of shit.

Maybe he's not cut out for this - I've known some guys who otherwise are some tough dudes, but
who can't handle certain aspects once they're suited up and into it. Claustrophobic, so they can't
handle the enclosed spaces, or lose it once their visibility goes, like this guy did. Maybe have a
one-on-one, and find out what's up. See if you can work him through it, and if not, maybe get him into
the EMS side of the house, where he won't have to go into the burn, but is still doing an essential
task.

Don't know what to say otherwise.....
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:30:01 AM EDT
as for the burn:
i understand what you guys are saying about the trialor and we do have a burn building we can go to, but like i said this trailor was free and the guy wanted uf to burn it so what can i say we all wanted to play, not to mention training in this was little more realistic then a burn building,

everything in this trailor was prett well predicted, the live burns were held in a heavility sheetrocked room (two layers of 5/8 sheetrock) and we must have had 20-30 burn in theere a haybail each, no problems, as for the big burn at the end, we have carefully planned venting, although i know what you are saying do to the fact that smoke was dropping and lifting and change slight color.

as for the guy who freaked, i have spoken with his schief..... he is from another department, and strongly suggested he be kept to outside activities, maybe some venting, or osmething, and if he was like to go in maybe he could do overhaul when the fire risk is gone and he can kinda go in and do over haul! BUT I SAID IN NO WAY WOULD I EVER BEABLE TO COUNT ON HIM TO BE ON MY CREW IN A REAL SITUATION, I SAID WHEN YOU ENTER THE DEVILS HOUSE YOU GOTTA BEABLETO COUNT ON EVERYONE OF YOUR MEN, AND NEVER NEVER EVER ATTEMPT TO LEAVE ANYBODY BEHIND, AND IF HE FREAKED IN A REAL SITUATION IT COULD CAUSE LOSS OF LIFE, LOSS OF STRUCTURE SO ON.

needless to say the chief understodd and agreed that interior attack was not for this guy, after all its not a job for the faint hearted, i personaly love it, but there is very high factors of unknowns, and also dangers
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:48:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Glockster19:
but like i said this trailor was free and the guy wanted uf to burn it so what can i say we all wanted to play....


Can't beat free...

Stay safe
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 12:47:10 PM EDT
For some reason I was thinking there was going to be gunfire. There are some trailers in my town that I'd let you burn down. Some houses too... Come on over....!!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:04:14 PM EDT
My 2 cents worth say ya really messed up sending the guy back in after he freaked and was on O's. That's a major mistake and just downright dumb. He could have gotten somebody hurt and ended up in the ER if he would have crashed after breathing smoke not to mention the other dangers. I'd verbally smack the living dog poo out of the IC/Safety or whoever it was that sent that guy back in after what happened.

Now about the hard headed jerks who refused to come out and needed to be draged out, they would be sent to remedial training and start all over again if not droped kicked on the spot. I've got no need or use for loosers who fail to obay me in a training situation let alone on the fire grounds (where they are inside a live fire) If they were on my VFD it would be a loong time before they even look at a SCBA again let alone ride on one of my trucks.

I've kicked people off my trucks before when I do not trust them. As a company officer and/or the officer of the truck I'm responsible not only for those jerks, but the entire crew and no way in hell will I comprimise my teams safety so somebody's ego and machoness can get stroked.

Live fires can be excellent learning tools if done right & it sounds like ya had a few mistakes & all the instructors and officers need to have a hot wash so those kinds of problems never happen again.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:48:08 PM EDT
tell em about it shirke

i understand all you are saying and i was very pissed as i mentioned, and to set things clear it was not my decision to send the same guy back in, and i do believe that the guy will never see live fire again, as what i was saying is i simply did my best to keep him incontrol, and like i said my main concern was keepin his mask on which i did , but i kno wwhat you are saying,

fire to me is my life and i will be the first to admit i do enjoy the bll bustin work that goes with it, and i will always be the guy who wants to make that difference but i was trained with the best in the maine fire attack schools an i know my gear and i know there limits andwhen i gave the order to get out and them guys didnt i was flamin pissed off but it was something that got taken care of, i have got many fires under my belt, and know how to read fire, and when i made that call, those guys just didnt take it serious cause im sure they thought it was training and they wanted to be the bad asses and like i said it was takin care of and if they were on my FD it would be a big problem for them they wouldnt be doing nothing but standin there itching their heads and rollin hoses but they arent its up to their chief to do something, and unfortantly their chief isnt to smart and when their town has a fire we ar almost always the first on seen and almost always the guys who are sent inside, but further more their FD is filled with "hottheads" who just want to say they went inside and did something so i guess all i ca do is prey they dont have a major reality check, but in the same way they might need a wake up call by someone, they need to realize whether its training the real thing that it doesnt matter things go down hill quick in this buisness and i hope they realize that before they find out first hand!

i guess all i want to say is you are correct and if i was running the training this could have been different but i was the guy int he house all day lighting fires then meeting a group at the door and taking them in by the time i noticed it was the same guy i had no choice so i did what i could!

i will say that i was incharge of my ccrew but i just couldnt believe that they sent this guy in two times, maybe they had a talk with him and first time he told them his mask leaked or something im not sure , but we have never had problems like this before with trainings so my guess is this guy didint want to look like a fool and made a story up , but all i know is he mesed up twice and i was just downright pissed about the guys not leaving when i said, they put my life on the line and more importantly my $4500 worth of ger on the line which is the same gear i trust every fire i go to and that really pisses me off

anyway amen nothing serious happened and i will be alot more alert to these things next time i go that is forsure
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:55:07 PM EDT
I rarely "go there", but you guys are

A) idiots
B) dangerous
C) going to get someone KILLED.

Knock off the heroic "my dick is bigger than yours", read NFPA 1403, and get your shit straight before we read about another newb FF killed in training.

Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:32:06 PM EDT
www.ci.yakima.wa.us/services/fire/NFPA1403.pdf

While I'm not going to get into what I personally think about the NFPA some of it is good and even if ya think they are geeks with beaks ya need to pay attention to 1403. All our live training fires are in a burn bulding, no live fires for us in any other structure as it's not exactly smart and could lead to serious injuries.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:37:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Glockster19:
they put my life on the line and more importantly my $4500 worth of ger on the line which is the same gear i trust every fire i go to and that really pisses me offing serious happened and i will be alot more alert to these things next time i go that is forsure





WTF, no gear is more important than you're life

Me thinks you are a 12 year old
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 7:57:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 8:17:54 PM EDT by Glockster19]
you guys dont understand what i am saying

*******WTF, no gear is more important than you're life

*******Me thinks you are a 12 year old

WELL WHAT I SAID WAS THEY INDANGERED MY LIFE, AND MY GEAR, THIS MEANS BY INDANGERING MY ppe THEY IN TURN AR EINDANGERING MY LIFE

*********I rarely "go there", but you guys are

*********A) idiots
*********B) dangerous
*********C) going to get someone KILLED.

*********Knock off the heroic "my dick is bigger than yours", read NFPA 1403, and get your *********shit straight before we read about another newb FF killed in training.

it is not me that is the idiot, this guys , and the guys that pulled the my dick is bigger then yours stunt are the idiots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

AS TO ANOTHER THING I AM NOT DANGEROUS, I MADE THE CALL TO GET OUT, "THEY " DID NOT LISTEN IS THIS MY FAULT?, I DRAGGED THEM OUT, I WAS PISSED, HOW ARE WE SUPOSED TO KNOW THESE GUYS WERE GONNA BE SO STUPID

THINK YOU SHOULD STOP AND SMELL WHAT YOU SHOVELING, IN THE STATE OF MAINE TYPICAL TRIANINGS SUCH AS THIS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND I THINK IT IS A VERY GOOD SYSTEM, THE ONLY RISK IS WHEN WE SET THE WHOLE THING ON FIRE, BUT HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT FROM WHEN YOU GO TO A HOUSE FIRE, DO YOU GUYS GET THERE AND SAY WELL WE KNOW EVERYTHING THIS FIRE IS GONNA DO AND DONT WORRY ITS JUST GONNE BURN QUIETLY OVER THERE! AS I SAID MOST GOT OUT WHEN ORDERED BUT ITS NOT ANY OF US INSTRUCTERS FAULT THAT 3 GUYS HAD TO BE DUMBASSES, I TOTALY AGREE THEY RISKED LIVES BUT I DIDNT RISK ANY LIVES I DRAGGED THEIR ASS OUT

AT ALL THESE TRAININGS WE HAVE A RIT TEAM IN PLACE, WE HAVE A BACKUP TEAM IN PLACE, AND TWO BACKUP LINES CHARGED, WITH MANY PEOPLE WATCHING! TO ME HAVING LIVE FIRE BURNS IN A STEEL CONTAINER LIKE MOST OF YOU DO IS POINTLESS, YOU GOTTA HAVE SOME REALNESS INVOLED, BUT LIKE I SAID THE "BURN ROOM" WAS LINED WITH 2 LAYERS OF 5/8" SHEETROCK AND TITAL FLOORS IT WAS PERFECTLY SAFE IN THAT BURN ROOM OTHER THEN SMOKE, WHICH YOU GET IN ANY LIVE BURN TRAINING SO STOP STOMPIN ON ME


Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:13:29 PM EDT
IM NOT ASKIN FOR YOUR OPINIONS AND DONT BE CALLIN ME A 12 YEAR OLD, WE HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS TYPE OF TRAINING AND IT IS HOW EVERYONE IS TAUGHT AROUND HERE DUE TO THE FACT WE WANT OUR NEW GUYS TO HAVE SOME IDEA WHAT TO EXSPECT WHEN IN THE REAL THING, GRANTED THEY STILL DONT HAVE ANY HAZARDS OTHE RTHEN SMOKE

AND TO ADD, THE ALAST BURN THE BIG ONE WAS VERY WELL CONTROLLED AND WAS NOT A RISK, IT WAS SIMPLY TO SIT AT A SAFE DISTANCE AND WATCH A REAL FIRE PROGRESS AND MOST OF THE GUYS WERE OUT WAY BEFORE THERE WAS A PRBLEM IT WAS JUST THREE GUYS THAT HAD TO BE DUMBASSES

AND O YA IM SURE THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYKIND OF PROBLEM WITH TRAININGS AT ANY OF YOUR fd'S RIGHT? YA RIGHT KEEP IN MIND WE ARE WORKING WWITH ABSOLUTE VIRGIN ROOKIES, YOU ARE OUND TO FIND ONE GUY OUT OF THE THIRTY GUYS WE HAD THAT JUST ISNT CUT OUT FOR THE JOB, SOMETIMES YOU FIND OUT NOT AT THE BEST TIME AND I WAS SIMPLY BORED AND WROTE THIS BIG THREAD UP BUT NOW ALL YOU GUYS WANT TO DO IS STOMP ON IT LIKE YOUR SHIT HAS NEVER STANK
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:01:58 AM EDT
You are an instructor.....an instructor that was lighting fires in a structure ......and dont have any control over your students? Its that type of shit that makes live burn instructors hesitate to conduct classes, at least around here. Some guy flakes out? YOU can stop him from going back in. When some swinging dick chief says he can go back in, refuse to continue the course. Its your class, your certification, your ass.....you are the one responsible for these kids. Becoming a live burn instructor in this state isnt just some good ol' boy thing, it means something.

Take this croud to a swede flashover simulator....might learn something.

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:20:31 AM EDT
around here a intrusctor is just the guy who shows them the fire, tell them the steps to take, like i said i didnt know this was the same guy till inside, and like i said he must have told a story to make it look like on the last time his mask leaked or something!
i have confidense in my higher ranked officers that were there that day so there had to be a reason they let him back in, although i understand he shouldnt have gone back in but i am glad we found out how thus guy reacted in a fire while we were training and not the real thing,

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCFFEMTERT:

Take this croud to a swede flashover simulator....might learn something.





Hell, it sounsa like Glockster19 needs to go to the simulator and learn.

They are sobering, yet incrediable powerfull learning tool and great fun I might add
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:33:55 PM EDT
i cant believ you guys have such opinions, i have been through fire 1 and certified, i have been through fire 2 and take a end test in 3 1/2 weeks, i also have been to a live flashover training, well not really training just an exsperience, and they give out previous used helmets and use there provided gear and go in a live falshover trailer, quite impressed with it

i think you guys need to lay off kinda rediculous you giving me this much fuckin trouble damn!
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:17:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanker06:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
I wouldn't want to do a house burn in a trailer.


+100 to that! They burn too fast for my liking - light `em up, and they're OFF!

Granted, not everybody has access to a dedicated burn-building, but IMHO, that's the best way to
go if you can for the noobs. Let them see fire behavior starting small, then building up, in an environment
that can, more or less, be controlled, versus in an actual structure where there's so many unknowns
or aspects out of your control.

As for the guy who kept freaking, I don't know what to say. I don't want to talk trash about the guy,
as I don't know him, (and everybody has a bad day occasionally), but I'd be doing some serious
thinking before I'd consider going through the door with him again. Losing it on the nozzle like that,
or if you're on the nozzle, and he's pulling for you, only to look back and he's hauled ass, that can
put you (or another member) in a real world of shit.

Maybe he's not cut out for this - I've known some guys who otherwise are some tough dudes, but
who can't handle certain aspects once they're suited up and into it. Claustrophobic, so they can't
handle the enclosed spaces, or lose it once their visibility goes, like this guy did. Maybe have a
one-on-one, and find out what's up. See if you can work him through it, and if not, maybe get him into
the EMS side of the house, where he won't have to go into the burn, but is still doing an essential
task.

Don't know what to say otherwise.....




Mobil homes/Trailers......... We've actually saved a few..........'course they where newer models, guess the code has changed alot on'em........... Now the older single wide, front door missing, 'Cooter Lives Here' mobil home........ Those go up like paper!
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:11:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Glockster19:
i cant believ you guys have such opinions, i have been through fire 1 and certified, i have been through fire 2 and take a end test in 3 1/2 weeks, i also have been to a live flashover training, well not really training just an exsperience, and they give out previous used helmets and use there provided gear and go in a live falshover trailer, quite impressed with it

i think you guys need to lay off kinda rediculous you giving me this much fuckin trouble damn!



Look at what you just posted.

F1 and F2 are a good start, but there is way more edjumacation needed to make a good fire instructor.

Have ya ever attended any NFA classes or FO1/FI1 classes??

How about taken the FREE on line classes?

If you don't think going to a flashover simulator is not training cuz you wore used gear & not you're issued geat then ya also have other issues.

If you think this is trouble then ya really have a lot to learn.

Ever hear of constructive criticism.

Get over you're ego and read and listen to the advice posted here, it could keep somebody from getting hurt or killed.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:20:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 5:25:02 AM EDT by NCFFEMTERT]
You expected positive feedback?

Im still concerned about these 18 or so students plus two "instructors" watching fire build in a mobile home. Well that and the fact a "live burn instructor" is someone that has had FFI and part of FFII......and his name on a roster for 10 years.

Shrike:

Dont leave out FDIC!!!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:25:06 AM EDT
ok guys i have gotten allittle worked up and i can def take advise my ego is fine its these few remarks that got me mad

I rarely "go there", but you guys are

A) idiots
B) dangerous
C) going to get someone KILLED.

Knock off the heroic "my dick is bigger than yours", read NFPA 1403, and get your shit straight before we read about another newb FF killed in training.
AND
Me thinks you are a 12 year old

also i would say this
i have taken ISO,sop, and selct other online corces as well, but i have tken classes at the fireattack school, for Inceident command,safety officer, and NFA training seminars!

also in regards to
NCFFEMTERT reply,

watching the fire build was no different from sitting in a live burn container and watching it, there was plenty of personel in the trailer we had 5 instructors with us each had control or basically 3 guys and the whole wall was taken out see we had two doors and a 10ft section to bail through, we have always done this in trainings and it is perfectly safe noramly you only sit in there for about 1 minute, so there is nothing dangerous, there is plenty of vents cut i the roof and sides of the trailor , and the basic idea is to let the new guys watch how a fire progresses from a small paper flame to its greater stages, and i just want to correct you on your statement on having PART of fireII i have completed it just need to end test out, and i do have many other traings and seminars under the belt also

i have no problem with constructive critism, and you may think what we do for taining isnt the way you would do it , but for us it has worked for many years and its how we do it, i just didnt like the remarks about how people though i was a 12 year old and we were completely dumb, it wasnt any of the intructors faults that there was three stupid ass guys that tried to prove something, and like i said they are being takin care of and it wont happen again,

AS to shrikes reply

just wanted to correct what i you said about the flash over training, i think its just my wording that people arent understanding and thats fine cause its misunderstanding, when i was talking about using gear that was already used in flash over traiing i was just sating that cause they hand out gear so you dont have to wreck yours in the flashover trailor, and also i refered to this as not really trainng, although it is somewhat cause they talk about flashovers, but its nothing you havnt learned already, most go to this just to exsperience it and know what it takes in real life to cause one, i have already had schooling on backdrafts, flashovers, smoke exsplosions so on, i was just going to this to see it in live fire form, so it was more a exsperience then a training see what i am saying, anyway
they way we train might be different then you, but we have never had and firefighter injuries other then small issues like say someone pulls a muscle and such, for some reason this one we just had a guy who freeked it happens and you wont know someonebody is gonna freak till they do,
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:37:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCFFEMTERT: Dont leave out FDIC!!!


If you are talking about This FDIC it would be a waste of time and money cuz he will never learn a thing and only think everybody is out to get him and his dark blue gear
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:43:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:45:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:46:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:48:55 PM EDT




Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:52:25 PM EDT




Link Posted: 3/18/2006 2:55:09 PM EDT
2 Firefighters killed in the line of duty.

Burried the same day in the same cemetery.

The most sobering thing I've ever done was attend these funerals.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:59:02 PM EDT
The scars on my wrist and neck are reminders of how "big dick" ff'ers pretending to be instructors can get their students injured. My only hope for this thread is that you realize that the intent of the people replying here is based out of fears we all have for our fellow jakes.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:06:32 PM EDT
knowbody is pretending to be a instructor here, and cetainly wasnt me being the "bigdick"

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:33:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 2:40:32 AM EDT by pevrs114]
Glockster19,

I understand your frustration. You've shown that you recognize that certain actions are wrong on the fire ground, and I commend you for sticking to those convictions. The department you were dealing with, obviously, has no clue.

What we're trying to point out, is that there are some things that are dangerous and wrong beyond what you've yet experienced. For example, a trailer is not designed for a single burn, let alone multiple burns.

It's not a matter of the sheet rock on the walls (which most likely isn't correctly taped at the seams, using correct UL listed fasteners and built in a construction which creates a fire-rated assembly per Maine's building code) and tile flooring, there are other issues at hand - heat stress on ceiling members (most trailers are built with gusset plates, which when exposed to heat, curl and pop off the truss sections, causing the roof to fail). This is covered in the building construction module of FFII.

There are reasons that live fire evolutions are performed in burn buildings or in APPROPRIATE acquired structures. In my state, and under NFPA 1403, which my state's fire service management agency has adopted, acquired structures must meet all the same levels of the building code as occupied structures, for safety purposes. The trailer you're describing almost certainly would not meet the requirements.

NFPA 1403 also requires that the ignition source for the training evolution be controlled by an instructor qualified to the NFPA 1041 standard, and any personnel escorting crews through evolutions must be an instructor. Thus, you were performing an instructor position as most of us are accustomed to.

Fire ground evolutions are not to "weed out" anyone. They are not intended to see who can hack it, etc. They are intended to provide students with a controlled environment to learn to search, rescue, extinguish, ventilate, etc, under smokey conditions with some heat. You mentioned a common theme in the fire service - "that's the way it's always been done, there's no need to change it" - this attitude ignores changes and updates in fire knowledge and creates an atmosphere which is not conducive to change or advancement. Also, you mentioned there not being any risk until the trailer is set to burn completely. Be forewarned, there is always risk in any live fire evolution, and those who are complacent and believe that no risk exists get careless and can get people hurt. There's some serious issues going on in your area that need to be addressed. Proper instructor training is a good way to gain awareness of these issues and begin to get them fixed.

You sound like a vigorous firefighter with a good heart. Take the advice written here as constructive criticism, and use the information that's been presented and try to inject some common sense into the agencies you deal with. Consider taking an instructor course after you finish your FFII, and see about setting up some kind of instruction cadre for your county. The standards are there for a reason, so people don't get hurt.

Again, get this information and peruse it-

NFPA 1403 - Standards on Live Fire Training Evolutions
Your state building code
NFPA 1041 - Fire Service Instructor Professional Qualifications
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 4:27:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dru:
Mobil homes/Trailers......... We've actually saved a few..........'course they where newer models, guess the code has changed alot on'em........... Now the older single wide, front door missing, 'Cooter Lives Here' mobil home........ Those go up like paper!


Interesting! Glad to hear that they've changed the codes - I've just never had the chance to see
one (and hope I won't, though I'm sure I eventually will) involved in a fire.
I've always dealt with the 'old code' ones that light up like an 8 month old Christmas tree.

Now that I've moved, I'm expecting to see more of the old style, and have come to discover the
world of having to fight your way through the debris/junkyard front yards to GET to the trailer, let
alone get in the front door. Me thinks I'll be getting more experience in preventing the fire from
spreading to the neighbors 'yard', and cooling off the trailer remains for the FM's inspection.....
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:46:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 7:46:30 AM EDT by Glockster19]
i certainly am glad i finaly got a cool calm response, it think it is all about the way i word things that got people all worked up, like you mentioned i said there was no real hazards in the burn building,
what i meant by saying this is the floors, were solid, the walls and roof werent gonna fall on the kids heads, and there was no gas or power anywhere near this place,

like you said there is always hazrds and i reconize that i dont want you to think it is safe, cause i know that!

as to fixing this problem i am already ahead of you, i have gone since and talked to Maine fire Attack on the hone, and chatted with them, and we are gonna make some changes to codes, and also we are gonna modify a current class so we can weed the guys out that might possibly freek in a smokey inviroment, but in the modified course it will be a harless enviroment!

our deparment always puts new guys through the proper training then before allowed to go into any live burn training or not they must do the scba tests (from socks to breathing air in 60 seconds, and also they must tape up their mask and go through a smoke trailor that we have and find victoms ect ect

but we are gonna make some changes,
anyway
amen brothers
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:54:00 PM EDT
Shrike, thanks for the pictures. Looks like you guys did a hell of a send off.

www.firefighterclosecalls.com/cc_training.php?PHPSESSID=f5a0d3d2779da61cbe19efa3678d15d0

I'm sure lots of you have heard of this site before. Here's a few stories from their burn training section. Stay low, be safe.
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