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Posted: 2/20/2006 9:12:06 AM EDT
When you deal, day in and day out, with scumbags who are predominately black or of other ethnic minorities, how do you maintain a racial objectivity? How do you fight the natural human tendency to just assume that all members of that minority are bad?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:57:11 AM EDT
By meeting those that are good. Every time I start to think the world has turned to shit something happens that reminds me there are still good people in this world.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:10:49 AM EDT
I'm not going to touch this with a 10 foot pole. If you don't get a lot of responses here Mr. Burrito, it's probably from people doing the same thing.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:15:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 10:15:32 AM EDT by LPDtactical]

Originally Posted By Twobravo:
I'm not going to touch this with a 10 foot pole. If you don't get a lot of responses here Mr. Burrito, it's probably from people doing the same thing.



Normally I would agree with you. I believe my response was an objective one though.


man I miss my avatar.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:32:35 AM EDT
FWIW this is not an attempt on my part to entrap anyone. I am asking for advice on how to do the same thing, although my profession isn't LE.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:34:02 AM EDT
anyone who runs is a criminal.
anyone who stands still is a well disciplined criminal.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:43:56 AM EDT
it's a basic fact that humans learn via discrimination

good vs, bad
black vs. white
hot vs. cold

it is the natural human tendency to group things together based on the simplest means of identification, problem is that it's not a very accurate system. Basically people are lazy to the core, and simply refuse to exercise any self awareness or critical thinking.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:55:47 AM EDT
Scumbags come in all colors and ethnicities. The only common denominator is that they are scumbags. The last two CHP officers shot to death here in California were both killed by white dudes. Everyone is a potential threat until proven otherwise.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:57:18 AM EDT
Tag, we were just talking about this in one of my CJA classes.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:16:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
When you deal, day in and day out, with scumbags who are predominately black or of other ethnic minorities, how do you maintain a racial objectivity? How do you fight the natural human tendency to just assume that all members of that minority are bad?



Concentrate on the person and their behavior. While there is no way to always accuratly read a person, it is still a valuable skill to have. Its not too tough to pick up on those who are less likely to be trustworthy.

Since I do not deal with the general public in my job, everyone gets the benefit of doubt and behavior that triggers a warning is worthy of attention.
If I were dealing with the public in a professional capacity, then I'd pay closer attention to their behavior. I'd probably start out with less automatic 'trust', too.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:24:57 AM EDT
Good question, it's a tough thing to do. Waiting for a solid answer from someone
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:49:03 AM EDT
It's not easy, but the mind has to overcome the gut.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:40:16 PM EDT
I see the world via peoples ACTIONS... not via their COLOR.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:34:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheAmaazingCarl:
it's a basic fact that humans learn via discrimination

good vs, bad
black vs. white
hot vs. cold

it is the natural human tendency to group things together based on the simplest means of identification, problem is that it's not a very accurate system. Basically people are lazy to the core, and simply refuse to exercise any self awareness or critical thinking.





Well put. I'm going to remember that.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:54:55 AM EDT
But it's human nature to learn from past experience. If you touch the stove and it's hot and hurts you, you don't touch the stove again. If you shoot yourself in the foot you become more mindful of where you point your gun. If you get bit by a dog you become more guarded in your behaviors around dogs. How do you chuck all of that, and decide to evaluate a stove on a case-by-case basis?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:55:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
But it's human nature to learn from past experience. If you touch the stove and it's hot and hurts you, you don't touch the stove again. If you shoot yourself in the foot you become more mindful of where you point your gun. If you get bit by a dog you become more guarded in your behaviors around dogs. How do you chuck all of that, and decide to evaluate a stove on a case-by-case basis?



I don't see it as a hard problem at all. You just stick with the facts as you know them. If you can't write it down on paper legally, then don't worry about it. I don't care if the guy on the corner looks like a dope dealer. I can't stop him just because of the way he looks, however I can keep my eye on him. When I see him hide something in the bushes like he is hiding dope, then I have a reason to deal with him. There are people that I do not like that are the same sex and race that I am. I still can't violate their rights because I don't like them. Race is no different.

I can watch someone in public whenever I want to for what ever reason I want. I just cannot act until I have met the requirements by law. That is how you do it on a case by case basis.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:59:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
But it's human nature to learn from past experience. If you touch the stove and it's hot and hurts you, you don't touch the stove again. If you shoot yourself in the foot you become more mindful of where you point your gun. If you get bit by a dog you become more guarded in your behaviors around dogs. How do you chuck all of that, and decide to evaluate a stove on a case-by-case basis?



Only a fool would refuse to acknowledge that past experience and to face future encounters with a defensive bias.

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:11:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
But it's human nature to learn from past experience. If you touch the stove and it's hot and hurts you, you don't touch the stove again. If you shoot yourself in the foot you become more mindful of where you point your gun. If you get bit by a dog you become more guarded in your behaviors around dogs. How do you chuck all of that, and decide to evaluate a stove on a case-by-case basis?



If you touched that hot stove, do you care what color it was or if it was gas or electric? If you shot yourself in the foot, does it matter what caliber (other than the size of the hole)? You are still going to respect a hot stove or a loaded/unloaded gun.

Yes, past experiences are a good learning tool. What does that have to do with race?

I don't let anyone put their hands in their pockets while I talk to them. I don't give them a pass if they are white.

If a guy if getting very nervous and starting to move around like he is about to do something, I don't let down my guard because he is not black or Hispanic.

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:48:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
When you deal, day in and day out, with scumbags snow birds who are predominately black from Minnesota or of other ethnic minorities mid-western origin, how do you maintain a racial gerentological objectivity? How do you fight the natural human tendency to just assume that all members of that minority snow birds are bad?




Burrito -

I curse the snow birds. Every single old person on the road is a damned snow bird...doesn't matter where they're actually from. After living in Arizona over 30 years I observe white hair and wrinkles and (due to social conditioning) automatically "know" that they are snow birds. The snow birds have no business on the road; the snow birds do not bring in as much money as they proclaim; the snow birds are a burden to the locals and cost more than they contribute; the snow birds suck up first-responder resources; the snow birds ignore or otherwise misunderstand our traffic laws; the snow birds are a scourge and a blight on the land. We should tax them back to Lake Wobegon!!!

The snow birds have no one to blame for this disdain other than themselves. If they wish to change this image then they should clean their own house...just like Islaam is currently doing.

Oh, and because the vast majority of people (including cops) firmly believe in absolutes, I have just a few more things to add - all women are whores, if you're not Baptist then you're going to hell, and it's all W's fault.

My 2 cents.



Note to snow bird lovers: this has been a facetious response to a serious sociological question. Inasmuch as I felt it better to not refer to the local reconquista in my geographical area due to the inherent shit-storm that would have arose, I chose to illustrate my point with a less computer-savvy (read "less likely to get pissed off") demographic. We warmly welcome snow birds in this state and wish they would stay, carry guns and vote republican.

Note to women: You are most likely not a whore. If you're reading this than you are probably a post whore, but we can forgive that.

Note to Baptists: Everyone else reading this thinks I was just kidding about the absolutes in life...but we know better, don't we?

Note to W: It's not your fault...don't believe a thing they say. I voted for you in both general elections, both primary elections and twice in an online poll from Newsweek (I used both my email addresses). I even waved at your limo once. Your only sin was getting involved with the Texas Rangers. And that line about Islaam cleaning house...that was sarcasm, too. I figured you knew that already, but I just wanted to be clear.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:35:49 PM EDT
I profile behavior.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:27:43 PM EDT
I do not know if this is true, so dont flame me.... this is just something I heard when I was younger


I heard that Blacks make up 12% of the US population, and on average, commit 50% of the crime.


I've also heard some statistic like 60+% of black males have been in the justice system at some point of their lives or another.



Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:08:43 AM EDT
I really don't see any one ethinicity having a higher scumbag ratio in our area.

Hell, if anything it's mostly whitey doing the meth and peddling the kiddie porn and stealing and breaking other peoples' stuff.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:17:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blazin413:
I do not know if this is true, so dont flame me.... this is just something I heard when I was younger

I heard that Blacks make up 12% of the US population, and on average, commit 50% of the crime.

I've also heard some statistic like 60+% of black males have been in the justice system at some point of their lives or another.



I have seen NIJ stas that show blacks commit over 50% of homicides. I don't know if that translates to other crimes. I have also seen similar stats on B/M's in the criminal justice system. What is the point? You cannot detain someone based on stats.

I bet that about 90% of the people I detain are males and about 80% are younger than 30. Is that age or gender profiling? I stop by the actions I see, not by race, age, sex or anything else. It is criminal profiling, nothing else.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:32:53 PM EDT
I take criminals to jail, not [insert ethnic group here].

That's it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 12:06:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wombat_SCSO:
I really don't see any one ethinicity having a higher scumbag ratio in our area.

Hell, if anything it's mostly whitey doing the meth and peddling the kiddie porn and stealing and breaking other peoples' stuff.



You aren't lying
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 12:46:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tvc184:

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
But it's human nature to learn from past experience. If you touch the stove and it's hot and hurts you, you don't touch the stove again. If you shoot yourself in the foot you become more mindful of where you point your gun. If you get bit by a dog you become more guarded in your behaviors around dogs. How do you chuck all of that, and decide to evaluate a stove on a case-by-case basis?



I don't see it as a hard problem at all. You just stick with the facts as you know them. If you can't write it down on paper legally, then don't worry about it. I don't care if the guy on the corner looks like a dope dealer. I can't stop him just because of the way he looks, however I can keep my eye on him. When I see him hide something in the bushes like he is hiding dope, then I have a reason to deal with him. There are people that I do not like that are the same sex and race that I am. I still can't violate their rights because I don't like them. Race is no different.

I can watch someone in public whenever I want to for what ever reason I want. I just cannot act until I have met the requirements by law. That is how you do it on a case by case basis.




This pretty much sums it up, but there is nothing that prohibits an officer from making contact to have a general conversation. During that conversasion you are applying the knowledge in your tool bag to detection indicators that criminal activity maybe afoote. If you can document this based on training and past interactions then keep talking. If nothing appears that draws further attention then so be it. We have a lot of businesses getting broken into in my town. I make many contacts to generate conversation. If they don't want to talk they don't have to, most will. You can learn a lot doing walk and talks.


Mike
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 1:48:45 AM EDT
I'm gonna tell all you guys a little story that I'm not really proud of. Our area has one of the fastest growing Hispanic populations in the United States. After I paid for my ex wife's Spanish/ English double major, she goes out and screws around on me with a waiter from Mexico. Let's say I was...angry to say the least. And I blamed him and all who I percieved like him. For quite a while I did nothing to make the lives of the Hispanics I dealt with easier. Don't get me wrong, I was never derelict in duty or did anything illegal or even against department policy, but I didn't go out of my way at all to help any of them except as I had to. Even to the point of being openly rude to some of them who definitely did not deserve it.
Fortunately, I was introduced to a wonderful Hispanic family, which did wonders to change my attitude. It was because of their kindness and obvious generosty that I began seeing Hispanics individually as opposed to seeing him every time I met one. Frankly the only time I feel the urge to be pissed at a race is when someone pulls the race card on me. And that's happened more than once with whites too, so I can't describe myself as "racist" at those times. Frankly, those are the ones that piss me off the most, because I think they make me and my family look bad to those of other races, and I'm ashamed to be associated with them.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 1:57:58 AM EDT
Easy, I've been doing this just long enough to have learned that being an asshole has nothing to do with skin color.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 2:11:36 PM EDT
When people ask me if I am prejudiced, I answer that of course I am.

The remainder of my response?

I hate assholes. They come in all colors.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 2:58:54 PM EDT
You understand the basics of human nature. People are tribal. We form tribes all the time and sometimes tribes within tribes. You may be a Lutheran, Boy Scout, Elk, Sertoma, Jaycee, whatever, they are all tribes that allow us to mingle with "our own" or people "like us." All tribes have rules and this puts us at ease because even though we've been industrialized we still feel uncomfortable around those different from us. Race is the most easily distinguished indentifier.
Back in the 1800's Irish immigrants were as white as the vast majority of other Americans, but felt the hatred of being different for many years. There is a great book about the NYPD's 1st Italian officer, Joe Petrosino. The Italians were viewed then very much like Hispanics are now. They were clannish, suspicious of government, reluctant to learn English, had different customs, and ate different food. The NYPD had no idea how to deal with them and hired Joe to deal with them. He was very successful until he was killed by Italian mobsters.
I believe that understanding your feelings and impulses helps you control them. Assholes come in all shapes and colors. It's true that minority populations have issues no one is dealing with realistically and this head-in-the-sand mentality only keeps those issues from being solved. I wish we could have a sensible discussion on these issues without the nuts from each end of the spectrum muddying the water.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 3:56:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 8:46:32 AM EDT by NorCal_LEO]
As my dad used to tell me.........

"There's black n******, and there's white n******."

I guess that goes to show that each race has it's "trash" and stereotype that you can put a prejudice name on.

I'll admit, it's hard for me not to look on some races negatively and in a prejudice manner when they're dressed like scum.

However, you have to remember that there's alot of different nationalities out there that our on our side more than we realize. Alot of dark skin people fighting at our side in Iraq......alot of ethnicities of cops in some larger cities...........and the list goes on. Heck, here in Tenn., a black man runs the Tenn. Bureau of Investigation.......he seems like a pretty cool dude from what little I've had a chance to meet him.

It's all a matter of mindset, i guess.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:27:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LPDtactical:
By meeting those that are good. Every time I start to think the world has turned to shit something happens that reminds me there are still good people in this world.



Well said, LPD.

Every time I start to slip into the "'profile x' is all scumbags" mindset, I think of my first partner at the City, the other good guys I work with who happen to occupy the same "check box", and the dozens of good citizens.

Then I get pissed at the skells for living the stereotype.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:10:54 AM EDT
I'm reading a book titled "Are Cops Racist". by Heather MacDonald.
You might want to check it out.

If Barney the Dino. pulls out a 12ga and holds up a liquor store he's going down.
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