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Posted: 2/12/2006 9:51:01 PM EDT
My department has beanbag shotguns and ammo, but restricts it;s use to SRT callouts and refuses to allow it to be carried on patrol.
Is this just my department or does your's do something similar?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:32:52 AM EDT
We carry Tasers. Some cars have less lethal shot guns - some don't. Not everybody has been trained on the LL shotgun. Sgt carries a Sage gun/37mm bean bag thing.

Brian
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:40:43 AM EDT
i just went to the def-tec school. when i got back i taught it to the tac team. we are a smaller department so are tac guys patrol to. we only have 5 less lethel shotguns right now but i hope to get more in the future.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:27:31 AM EDT
We carry the Jay-Cor peperball device. Its on patrol with cops that are certified on it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:54:28 AM EDT
All Sworn Personnel (Patrol and CID): Pepper spray, Taser, and baton as requested

Corrections (County jail): Pepper spray. Taser and Pepperball available to shift supervisors as needed.

SWAT: 40mm gas gun and dedicated 12ga less lethal shotguns in addition to above (they have a pepperball as well)

Some sworn personnel who have been trained also have beanbag and/or rubber buckshot rounds for thier shotguns.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:31:02 AM EDT
All patrol officers have a taser and super sock shotgun. Qualified officers have access to one SL6 37mm with KO1 rounds. Almost every squad also has an AR or M-16. Anyone can also check out a ballistic shield if they want. Every officer has a ballistic helmet and gas mask. My department use to limit all this equipment to just the Sgts but then they realized that the Sgt was not on scene when this stuff was needed most. This lesson was learned the hard way several times with one officer seriously injured. SWAT takes lots of time to form-up so patrol has the equipment to take care of almost anything.

We have never shot our shotguns or SL6 at anyone. Of all the equipment we have I would say the Taser, helmets, and ballistic shield (Protect Intruder w/lights) have been used the most. Lots of officers have threatened the use of the Taser, but only one officer has used it and it worked very well. We have had them for about one year. The shields have been used several times when making entry on homes, and barricaded subjects.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:29:35 AM EDT
We are trying to get Tasers, but our town counsel wont go for it. So all we have right now is spray, and it sucks.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:45:14 AM EDT
We have the Taser x-26 and all I can say is that it is awesome. We also use ALS Top Cop OC and it appears to be really good. I am recently transferred back to patrol from CID,(its like starting all over again,loving it) and I am going to start lobbying for the less lethal shotguns in my guys hands.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:45:05 PM EDT
Every patrol officer has a LL shotgun and a taser.

No restrictions on who can carry as long as they receive the training.

The beanbags are excellent tools that shouldn't be overlooked.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:10:03 PM EDT
Tasers in the next few months.
Looks like the new use of force policy should outline the use of bean bags.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:08:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:14:15 PM EDT
Most of our patrol officers are issued the X26 tasers and some have super sock rounds for their shotguns. Only our SWAT team uses 37mm.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:18:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:07:27 PM EDT
Our line Deputies carry Tasers and Spec ops has the bean bag ammo. Our CERT team for the jail has Pepperball, Shock shield, and Taser. Of course there is the ever popular OC sprays and foggers too.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:19:54 PM EDT
As someone who has taken a round from a 12 ga beanbag, I bet that 37 is the Sh??
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:00:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By Bucky145:
. Anyone can also check out a ballistic shield if they want. Every officer has a ballistic helmet and gas mask.
The shields have been used several times when making entry on homes, and barricaded subjects.


What kind of shield do you have.
We have the Armadillo C&R 4' prison shield at work. We conducted some "tests" on it last week in regards to what caliber rounds it would stop. In other words..I shot it several times. It isn't a ballistic shield. We experimented with it after some fellow ERT members had reason to borrow a ballistic shield from the local RCMP ERT. It was small, heavy as hell and totally impractical for what we needed.
The shield as issued stopped .22 rounds from 5 and 10 yards from a 5" barrel revolver and a rifle. The only round that penetrated the shield was a second one at 5 yards from the revolver that hit the same spot as the first round.
We added 2 pieces of 3.8 lexan to the back and I shot it with a .38 loaded with 147 gr full wadcutters from approx 5 yards. The rounds impacted approx an inch apart and cracked the shield causing a "hole".
Next up was a 147 gr SXT 9mm from our duty carbine at 10 yards. Both rounds penetrated the shield and the first layer of lexan but stopped in the air space between the first and second sheet of lexan.
We are going to replace the 2 pieces of 3/8 lexan with a thinner sheet on the front of the shield and try it again with the .22's..and maybe my .357. Here is a poor pic of the results.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/5speed/DSCF0033.jpg



Striker We use two Protec Defender shields and two Protec Intruder shields. The Intruders have a light system on it. Each shield is a level IIIA including the view port. I use a RBR Mark II helmet that is also rated to level IIIa (great helmet). The shield basically will stop most common handgun rounds. Intel on what weapon your up against is a good thing.

I did see a Intruder hit with a 12 gage rifled slug from approximately 20 yards. The slug did not go threw but the damage was very bad. The slug struck the shield where a bracket held the handle on. I believe the slug would have gone threw if it did not hit this bracket. OO buck and .22 cal was stopped. .223 and .308 went threw no problem. The other shields designed to stop rifle rounds are very, very heavy. Some come with wheels to roll the shields out due to the weight.

Having used both the Defender and the Intruder I would get the Intruder with the light system. The view port on the Intruder is larger and the light system is a must. The light system uses two lights on it so if one of the lights takes a round you still have one light. The shields are a bit heavy but managable. I have used the Intruder with lights twice as a patrol officer.

My first was a mental subject with his elderly mother inside a house. Long story short we had to make an unplanned forced entry into the house. I went in first with an Intruder and two other officers behind me. The house had been barricaded with 2X4s, gates, junk, and no lights were on. We confronted the subject who had several knives next to him. He was blinded by the light. I performed a "bunkner stun" on him and forced him to the ground. Problem solved.

My department started to issue equipment that was previously reserved for SWAT types to patrol officers after incidents like this. SWAT takes time to form up, time most of us do not have. My administration believes that SWAT is great, however the Patrol Division needs the tools to control the situation or to end it before SWAT arrives. This is why we have Tasers, gas masks, helmets, goggles, AR-15/M-16s, ballistic shields, bean bag shotguns, 37mm. We did not get all this equipment very fast, but over a three year period we got most of it. I found as a patrol officer if you make a budget request for safety items, articulate a need, point out incidents in your area that the equipment would have helped, it is hard for administration to say no. Granted, you will have to find the best prices. We use the lexan shields for riot control, but they are not ballistic rated.

I'm not trying to bust on SWAT types Lesson learned from workplace violence incidents, metal subject incidents, domestic violence incidents, and school shootings have demonstrated pritty clearly that patrol officers need to have the tools to take care of buisness when buisness calls.

Bkssniper. If you want the toys, put together a complete professional proposal. Includeing a budget request, draft policy for use of items, copies of other agency policies, price quotes from dealers, incident numbers where the equipment could have been used, any inuries that could have been prevented with the equipment to officers and suspects, articles from police news letters supporting your position, training or maintence costs........... If your admin then says no, they will know that your propsal could bite them in the a$$ later.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 2:45:40 PM EDT
I presented the argument to my SRT commander today and in about 30 minutes as they say "The rules Changed" I guess my superiors in patrol will be mad but oh well. Maybe this will lead the way to more of them being issued to patrol, now, if I can only find someone to bag with it. just kidding.

Thanks again for the replies and examples.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:46:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bkssniper:
As someone who has taken a round from a 12 ga beanbag, I bet that 37 is the Sh??



My buddy hit a guy with a 40mm rubber buckshot round. Heavy bruising in the point of impact (lower ribs/abdomen), one buckshot penetrated and was lodged in the calf. Very nasty weapon.

At my facility we had available to anyone who was qualified:

12ga w/ point or area LTL
FN303 Less Lethal Launcher
40mm M203 LTL rubber buckshot
OC spray - personal and fogger
X26 Taser
Flashbang distraction devices
Stinger ball grenades (donkey balls)
Batons

As part of the SRT team, I had access to all of the above, plus LTL claymores, ballistic shields, CS grenades, and vehicle mounted monitor (deck gun water cannon).

In addition, we had available Beretta 92FS, Colt M16/M4, Colt M203, FN M249, M2 .50, Mk19 40mm, 12ga lethal buckshot.

I've seen the effects of almost all of the above LTL munitions... most are very effective, none were lethal.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 11:09:30 AM EDT
Yes, we carry Less Lethal shotguns with supersock (beanbag) rounds. The shotguns are remington 870 models with bright orange buttstock and bright orange charging handle. The buttstock is clearly labeled "LESS LETHAL". The supersock rounds are clearly marked and are also bright orange in color.

All deputies on patrol are trained in deploying the LL and there is one in every patrol car. .
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:14:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 7:30:54 AM EDT
Got to use my less lethal shotgun last night, it's second night on the street. Barricaded EDP, used the LL to remove te lights from the front of the house and several street lights. I cant say much but the situation deterioated and our entry was forced to se deadly force.
I was on the innder perimeter in case we could have used it on her but it didn't work out. It did a helluva job on those lights though, with very little damage to the housings of the lights, Accuracy was outstanding. I took a 100 watt bulb oof the side of the house from around 15 yards, 1 shot.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 12:52:40 PM EDT
We're all certified on the Pepperball, but I don't think any ever leave the arms room. Supervisors get Tasers. One of these days, we lowlings will get certified on them as well. Then maybe even get them issued.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 5:25:35 PM EDT
We had to ride the lightning (5 seconds) on the taser. I can honestly tell you that I would rather do that than be sprayed with OC.

It hurts but then its over. OC has that lasting effect.
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