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Posted: 2/6/2006 8:18:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:20:47 PM EDT by CRC]
For example:

Use of a firearm to strike a blow is forbidden.


I'm just curious if as an officer if you ran out of ammo or your gun malfunctioned but still being attacked if you could not say strike a blow to your assailant with your handgun/longun
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:11:34 PM EDT
Interesting question. In a (self-defense) situation as you describe it, I wouldn't have second thoughts about it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:30:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 9:31:56 PM EDT by Scott574]
Assuming that since you just shot away all your ammo you are already in a justified use of deadly force senario........at that point anything goes, gun as a club, baton strike to the head, asphalt roller, etc.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:31:35 PM EDT
Could you use your patrol carbine to chest thump someone with the muzzle?
In a riot situation, or something like that.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:41:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 9:42:43 PM EDT by NCPatrolAR]
Hitting someone with your weapon (if not in the head) would normally rank as an impact weapon strike. Now if you crack them in the head, it would be lethal force (for us anyways).

Edit to add:

One of the techniques I teach for dealing with resisting subjects during a warrant service is the sternum strike with whatever firearm you are carrying
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:53:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
For example:

Use of a firearm to strike a blow is forbidden.

I'm just curious if as an officer if you ran out of ammo or your gun malfunctioned but still being attacked if you could not say strike a blow to your assailant with your handgun/longun



When you say "ran out of ammo or your gun malfunctioned", that implies that you tried to kill someone already. If you already had justification to use deadly force, why shouldn't you use a disabled firearm? It would really be stupid for a policy to say that is okay to gun someone down to save your life but you have better not strike them with the same gun to save your life. Having said that, I bet there are agencies out there with just such a restrictive policy.

Our policy says that in an emergency, anything can be an authorized weapon.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:22:38 AM EDT
I've struck people with clipboards, radios, flares, flashlights, canned goods, handcuffs, rocks, spare mags, rolls of 100mph tape, (worked darn good too) And my trusty Beretta 92. The latter works REALLY well.

About the only thing I've never hit someone with is an ASP baton.

When you are rolling around on the ground with 3 guys who are all trying to grab your weapon, and the only sirens you hear are a LONG way off, policy is not really something you consider important.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:15:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:52:31 AM EDT by highdraglowspeed]
We have a note in policy that says something to the effect that situations are dynamic and sometimes an officer needs to use a weapon in a way it was not designed. Improvised weapons would also be covered here. example. smash them with a potted plant, etc.

Gotta be able to articulate your actions.

edited to note. They must also be resonable and legal.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:21:43 AM EDT
The most important thing you can be taught is the act of ARTICULATION. If you can articulate a good enough reason, then just maybe it will be OK. By the way if you are in there long enough to run out of ammo.....RUN get the hell out of there.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:28:45 AM EDT
If I was in a gun fight and run out of ammo or my weapon malfunctioned..........a) I hope I would have backup shootin back , b) i hope i wouldnt be close enough to the suspect to have to use my gun to strike him c) if i had to, you are god damn right I would, Im going home at the end of shift

Be Safe
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:37:09 AM EDT
I'm not LEO but I was trained by one to throw the gun if I am in a gun fight and run out of ammo.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:28:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:34:23 AM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:07:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
/snip/ Motorolas and brass keys are better than nothing.



Especially those BIG Motorolas that they had when I started out in Corrections fourteen years ago. They were literally the same size as a brick, and almost as heavy. They were definitely more useful as an impact weapon than as communications. Thank God I got out of corrections.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:17:34 AM EDT

Death of Suspect Hit by Radio Ruled a Homicide

By Michael Cooper, The New York Times – Wednesday, November 25, 1998


The death of 36 year old man who was hit in the head last
month by a radio a police officer threw at him was ruled a
homicide yesterday by the Chief Medical Examiner’s office.

The man, Kenneth Banks, of Harlem, died of a blunt impact to
his head, which fractured his skull and caused contusions to
his brain, said Ellen Borakove, a spokeswoman for the Chief
Medical Examiner’s office.

The section of the autopsy report that details how the injury
occurred states: “Bicycling to avoid arrest when hit in the head
by a radio thrown by a police officer. Lawyers representing
the officer who is under investigation for throwing the walkie-
talkie have maintained that Mr. Banks died after swallowing
crack Cocaine while fleeing in an effort to destroy evidence.
But the autopsy determined that drug use was not a factor in
Mr. Banks death.

Mr. Banks was injured on Oct. 29 while fleeing from two
officers on 125th. Street who were trying to arrest him on
drug charges. He lapsed into a coma and died on Nov. 11.

His death is being investigated by the Police Department’s
Internal Affairs Bureau and the Manhattan District Attorney’s
office, which plans Present the case to a grand jury to
determine if criminal charges are warranted against Officer
Craig Yokemick, 31, who threw the radio. Officer Yokemick
has been stripped of his gun and placed on modified
assignment while his case is investigated.






Yokemick Cops a Plea

New York Sun Editorial
August 12, 2004

There was a time not so long ago when police brutality, or alleged police brutality, was a big issue in New York. Remember the front-page stories, the anger, the protests, over Abner Louima, the Haitian immigrant tortured in a police station in 1997? Remember Amadou Diallo, the innocent African immigrant shot in front of his home in the Bronx with 41 bullets in 1999?

On Friday, Craig Yokemick, a former New York City police officer, pleaded guilty to two felony violations of federal civil rights laws. According to a brief item that moved Monday on the Associated Press wire, Yokemick in 1998 killed a fleeing drug suspect by throwing a police radio at him that hit the suspect's head. In 2002, he punched a Westchester County teacher and threw him to the ground, according to the AP account of the charges.

The federal civil rights prosecution came after a failure by county prosecutors to gain an indictment. Part of keeping citizens safe and the reputation of the NYPD strong is weeding out the bad cops in the bunch. Yokemick had a record of problems well before the 1998 incident, and New Yorkers are safer because he is off the force.

But the remarkable thing in this particular case is that Friday's guilty plea took place with hardly a mention in the city's press, and with nary a peep of passion from the city's most outspoken agitators on these kinds of issues. It's a tribute to the skill with which Mayor Bloomberg and his police commissioner, Raymond Kelly, have handled both policing and race relations in the city.

And it is a tribute as well to the professionalism of the vast majority of the city's police officers. New Yorkers increasingly sense that the rare officers like Yokemick are the exceptions to a pattern that all of us in the city can be proud of.


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:20:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 2:22:34 PM EDT by AZ-K9]

Originally Posted By mdb212:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
/snip/ Motorolas and brass keys are better than nothing.



Especially those BIG Motorolas that they had when I started out in Corrections fourteen years ago. They were literally the same size as a brick, and almost as heavy. They were definitely more useful as an impact weapon than as communications. Thank God I got out of corrections.


I know those so well I have the model number memorized. The venerable MX350...:


We would almost get in fights over who would carry the one's with shoulder mic's.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 4:00:03 PM EDT by fla556guy]
Well, if I was in a situation where I could and have to use deadly force, and my weapon had a stoppage, or something that prevented me from actually shooting the person, then yes, I'd shove the muzzle of my gun into their ribs, or beat them about the head and shoulders until the threat was ended, as long as I was justified in using deadly force, I don't see how this could be a problem. I'm going home....no matter what...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:21:25 PM EDT
I've used my ASP to scratch my back, getting behind that vest can be tough. I would say if its a deadly force situation anything goes.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:07:57 PM EDT
I had a woman try to grab my Glock one night as I was arresting her husband for domestic assault. OC didn't work, elbows to her face didn't work, bouncing off every cabinet and piece of furniture didn't work...but cracking her in the head with my Motorola 300 handheld did.

On the original question, the official answer is no, but when SHTF and ICW, anything goes.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:28:05 PM EDT
As I was taught, it's 'lethal force is lethal force' regardless of the type used. If the Use of Force Continuum has reached that level and lethal force is justified it doesn't really matter what is used. The suspect is going to still be dead whether it is a car, gun, club, radio or even an empty/unusable firearm used as a club.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:33:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Death of Suspect Hit by Radio Ruled a Homicide

By Michael Cooper, The New York Times – Wednesday, November 25, 1998


The death of 36 year old man who was hit in the head last
month by a radio a police officer threw at him was ruled a
homicide yesterday by the Chief Medical Examiner’s office.

The man, Kenneth Banks, of Harlem, died of a blunt impact to
his head, which fractured his skull and caused contusions to
his brain, said Ellen Borakove, a spokeswoman for the Chief
Medical Examiner’s office.

The section of the autopsy report that details how the injury
occurred states: “Bicycling to avoid arrest when hit in the head
by a radio thrown by a police officer. Lawyers representing
the officer who is under investigation for throwing the walkie-
talkie have maintained that Mr. Banks died after swallowing
crack Cocaine while fleeing in an effort to destroy evidence.
But the autopsy determined that drug use was not a factor in
Mr. Banks death.

Mr. Banks was injured on Oct. 29 while fleeing from two
officers on 125th. Street who were trying to arrest him on
drug charges. He lapsed into a coma and died on Nov. 11.

His death is being investigated by the Police Department’s
Internal Affairs Bureau and the Manhattan District Attorney’s
office, which plans Present the case to a grand jury to
determine if criminal charges are warranted against Officer
Craig Yokemick, 31, who threw the radio. Officer Yokemick
has been stripped of his gun and placed on modified
assignment while his case is investigated.






Yokemick Cops a Plea

New York Sun Editorial
August 12, 2004

There was a time not so long ago when police brutality, or alleged police brutality, was a big issue in New York. Remember the front-page stories, the anger, the protests, over Abner Louima, the Haitian immigrant tortured in a police station in 1997? Remember Amadou Diallo, the innocent African immigrant shot in front of his home in the Bronx with 41 bullets in 1999?

On Friday, Craig Yokemick, a former New York City police officer, pleaded guilty to two felony violations of federal civil rights laws. According to a brief item that moved Monday on the Associated Press wire, Yokemick in 1998 killed a fleeing drug suspect by throwing a police radio at him that hit the suspect's head. In 2002, he punched a Westchester County teacher and threw him to the ground, according to the AP account of the charges.

The federal civil rights prosecution came after a failure by county prosecutors to gain an indictment. Part of keeping citizens safe and the reputation of the NYPD strong is weeding out the bad cops in the bunch. Yokemick had a record of problems well before the 1998 incident, and New Yorkers are safer because he is off the force.

But the remarkable thing in this particular case is that Friday's guilty plea took place with hardly a mention in the city's press, and with nary a peep of passion from the city's most outspoken agitators on these kinds of issues. It's a tribute to the skill with which Mayor Bloomberg and his police commissioner, Raymond Kelly, have handled both policing and race relations in the city.

And it is a tribute as well to the professionalism of the vast majority of the city's police officers. New Yorkers increasingly sense that the rare officers like Yokemick are the exceptions to a pattern that all of us in the city can be proud of.





Nice cut and paste. The problem is not that the Officer used a radio, but rather that deadly force wasn't justified. The magic words are, "Only the amount force justified to gain control of the suspect" come to mind.
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