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Posted: 1/16/2006 7:41:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 7:41:50 PM EDT by sta1treeman]
Would one of the LEOs explain a typical firearm qualification test? how many rounds, what distances, required accuracy, and time? Also what type of targets? both handgun and rifle, and how well do most officers do? Thanks Treeman
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:13:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
Would one of the LEOs explain a typical firearm qualification test? how many rounds, what distances, required accuracy, and time? Also what type of targets? both handgun and rifle, and how well do most officers do? Thanks Treeman



There is probably not a typical course but probably a lot of similarities, at least as far as state standards.

I would bet that most states require a 50 round couse of fire but could be more or less. They likely require distances up to at least 15 yards and maybe 25 yards with a certain number of rounds coming from those distances. There might be a mandatory reload in the course of fire and at least a certain number of rounds have to be duty ammo, maybe all rounds. The minimum qualifying score might be 70-80%. The rounds will likely be fired from a locked holster in a limited amount of time and will likely require more than one shot fired per round such as double taps.

That is a lot of "maybe" and "probably" scenarios but therein lies the problem when you talk about a "typical" course when you have 50 different sets of state laws and then thousands of police agencies that may set their own course within the state guidelines.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:30:09 PM EDT
Not nearly enough to be considered and expert, like most LEO's think they are.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Not nearly enough to be considered and expert, like most LEO's think they are.



Funny, even the rangemasters and SWAT guys at my dept don't think they're 'experts'. Academy was a 60 round/300 point (IIRC) course from 3-25yds using upper body sihoulette(sp?) targets. Don't remember the minimum passing score but even the worst shooter in my squad shot 275 or better. By the end of firearms training most were shooting 285/300 or better.

Brian
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:10:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brian4wd:
Funny, even the rangemasters and SWAT guys at my dept don't think they're 'experts'. Academy was a 60 round/300 point (IIRC) course from 3-25yds using upper body sihoulette(sp?) targets. Don't remember the minimum passing score but even the worst shooter in my squad shot 275 or better. By the end of firearms training most were shooting 285/300 or better.
Brian

Respectfully, what percentage of Law Enforcement Orgs have paramilitary tactical units like SWAT? Given the abundance of Municipal and County Dept's through the nation, I feel confident in estimating less than half do. If anyone has the actual data on that please post and correct me. And of that ">HALF" group what percentage of the Dept's total enforement officers are part of those SWAT teams? A smaller portion still. So expressing the opinions of rangemasters and SWAT guys is by all means, a tiny portion of the entire LEO population.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:17:03 PM EDT
So if a guy were to put say 60 rds in the 10 ring his score would be 600? what kind of time frame, is this a moving test, and different firing positions?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:38:05 PM EDT
Try our pistol practice quals. It's probably typical.
(5 half torso targets)

30 yard line. 1 round each in target 1,2,3,4,5. Last 2 rounds back to target #1. 15 seconds

15 yard line. Two rounds each target, return with last two rounds in target #1. 10 seconds.

10 yard line, (anti-armor drill) three rounds each target, 2 COM, 1 head shot each. 10 seconds.

7 yard line. 2 rounds each target, ending with another 2 in target #1. 5 seconds.

Reloads as required. No alibi rounds. 85% to pass.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:37:21 AM EDT
We shoot the standard FBI Q-courses, 50 rounds each. Daylight 7-25 yards, night 3-15 yards with and without flashlights. I have it written out somewhere.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:01:49 AM EDT
Oklahoma, which is about 30 years behind the firearms curve, is as follows.

3 rds - 3ft, one handed, unaimed, COM

3rds - 3yds, two handed, 2rd COM, 1rd head, aimed

2rds - 5yds, COM

2rds - 7yds, COM

2rds - 15yds, low tactical kneeling position, COM

2rds - 25yds, strong hand barricade, COM

2rds - 25yds, weak hand barricade, COM

2rds - 25yds, strong hand, low kneeling, using the barricade for cover only, COM

2rds - 50yds, high kneeling, high kneeling, using the barricade for cover and support, COM

Total of 20 rds, divided into multiples of 6 rds, so the wheelgun guys can do it easily. Reloads are not required. Minimum score of 70% to pass.

This is the State Minimum Qualifier, mandated by CLEET. Departments may use stricter and/or more extensive rotations.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:20:28 AM EDT
Thank you all, sounds like some fun practice, Iwas going to the range today, but its a toad strangler outside, maybe tomorrow. I am pretty profficient with my hand guns, I try to do drills, that simulate a robber entering my store, how fast can I get gun, either off couter, or out of holster, and put rounds on target. Just so you know, if someone comes in the store, with gun drawn, they can have the money, I know you can't outdraw a drawn weapon. this is purely defensive, last resort we are talking. Other scenerio is home invasion, I consider those last resort scenerios from the start, and I will hopefully have more distance, and a little cover.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:21:23 AM EDT
Standard Alabama APOST. Use a B-27 Target.

Start at the 50 yard line. 45 seconds.
Run to the 25 yard line.
Draw and fire 6 rounds strong hand barricade
Kneel and fire 6 rounds strong hand barricade
Weak hand kneel and fire 6 rounds. Mandatory reload.

Run from 25 yard line to 15 yard line. 20 seconds
Draw and fire 2 rounds. (revolvers now load a full cylinder)
Ready gun, fire 2 rounds. On command
Ready gun, fire 2 rounds. On command
Ready gun, fire 2 rounds. On command
Reload.

Move from the 15 yard line to 7 yard line. 20 seconds
Draw and fire 12 rounds.
Reload.

From the 7 yard line take two steps forward.
Draw and fire 6 rounds unsupported strong hand.
Fire 6 rounds unsupported weak hand.

50 rds total. Score is 2 points for each round inside the outermost score ring.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:58:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Try our pistol practice quals. It's probably typical.
(5 half torso targets)

30 yard line. 1 round each in target 1,2,3,4,5. Last 2 rounds back to target #1. 15 seconds

15 yard line. Two rounds each target, return with last two rounds in target #1. 10 seconds.

10 yard line, (anti-armor drill) three rounds each target, 2 COM, 1 head shot each. 10 seconds.

7 yard line. 2 rounds each target, ending with another 2 in target #1. 5 seconds.

Reloads as required. No alibi rounds. 85% to pass.


Whats the start position? Holstered or Low ready/SUL something else? Whats the spacing on the targets? 1yard/meter? or something else? Also what type of half torso targets? I got some generic torso targets I could probably use but knowing the type ya use for this would help out.

That 1.5 seconds for 12 rounds seems a little fast even for 7 yards, seems one would be rushing which doesn't make for good solid hits.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:24:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Try our pistol practice quals. It's probably typical.
(5 half torso targets)

30 yard line. 1 round each in target 1,2,3,4,5. Last 2 rounds back to target #1. 15 seconds

15 yard line. Two rounds each target, return with last two rounds in target #1. 10 seconds.

10 yard line, (anti-armor drill) three rounds each target, 2 COM, 1 head shot each. 10 seconds.

7 yard line. 2 rounds each target, ending with another 2 in target #1. 5 seconds.

Reloads as required. No alibi rounds. 85% to pass.


Whats the start position? Holstered or Low ready/SUL something else? Whats the spacing on the targets? 1yard/meter? or something else? Also what type of half torso targets? I got some generic torso targets I could probably use but knowing the type ya use for this would help out.

That 1.5 seconds for 12 rounds seems a little fast even for 7 yards, seems one would be rushing which doesn't make for good solid hits.



That's 5 seconds. Your final two rounds are in target #1. I missed a space.

All starts and reloads come from the duty gear. Targets are plain dark blue with a 5,4,3 point ring "racetrack". style. Rounds are 5 points each. How far apart are they? Don't know for sure, they're on those turnstyle thingys. Maybe 12 inches?

Forgot to mention. On the anti-armor stage, missing the headshot mean you drop all 15 points for that target. Not just the one round.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:31:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:31:52 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
That's 5 seconds. Your final two rounds are in target #1. I missed a space.

All starts and reloads come from the duty gear. Targets are plain dark blue with a 5,4,3 point ring "racetrack". style. Rounds are 5 points each. How far apart are they? Don't know for sure, they're on those turnstyle thingys. Maybe 12 inches?

Forgot to mention. On the anti-armor stage, missing the headshot mean you drop all 15 points for that target. Not just the one round.




Thanks for the info. I'll give it a run next time I'm out at the club.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:53:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:04:57 AM EDT by Colt_SBR]
www.tcc.fl.edu/dept/ptlea/news/chiefs_news.htm

Florida State Firearms Qualification Standard For Active Law Enforcement Officers.

The Commission's Firearms Qualification Standard shall be completed every other year beginning July 1, 2006, with the first reporting period ending June 30, 2008; the reporting period will be every two years thereafter. Any officer who fails to meet the required firearms qualification standard shall be removed from sworn duty until he or she has met the required standard. Any officer who fails to meet the standard by June 30, 2008, shall have his/her certification made inactive.

The Course-of-Fire and the related requirements are outlined below:

Course of Fire

Stage 1 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 15 yard line. 6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Stage 2 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 7-yard line. Mandatory reload. 12 rounds in 45 seconds.

Stage 3 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 7 -yard line. 3 rounds in 5 seconds. Repeat for a total of 6 rounds.

Minimum Score - Total of 40 rounds. Minimum Score of 80%. 32 of 40 rounds in the scoring area.

Additional Requirements

* The B-21E target or its equivalent is required
* The qualification course of fire shall be conducted in daylight conditions
* An officer must qualify with the type of weapon that is to be carried
* The qualification course of fire must be administered by a CJSTC certified firearms instructor
* The qualification course of fire maybe conducted at either a CJSTC certified training chool range, an agency range or a private range
* Remedial training and qualification may be conducted by the employing agency

___________________________________________________________________________

Most police shootings are within 15 yards.

When I started, we had to qualify from 50 yards with 12 rounds. A total of 48 rounds had to be used. It was pass or fail back then.

________________


Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:04:24 AM EDT
Sounds like some fun practice, I just set torso targets at 100, 50, and 25yds, I pick an order, and put two rds on each in the order I chose, then check the hits, this is with my AR, I shoot back and forth 25 and 50 yds with pistol, and shoot steal plate ranges, I think they are 15 yds? going from right to left , and left to right, also from draw, and having pistol laying on the firing line bench. this simulates grabbing gun off of the counter at the store. I try to make practice as close to what I may encounter in my store.( the AR is for fun, I don't see myself getting in a shoot out at the store, and having my AR) I have always wondered if I could qualify shooting a LEA qualification test.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:10:50 AM EDT
The Florida test sounds pretty easy, I'm not knocking it or anything, and may be harder when you actually do it, but I am going to give it a try, sounds like the easiest to set up, if you are by yourself. What is considered a scoring hit?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:32:06 PM EDT


The Course-of-Fire and the related requirements are outlined below:

Course of Fire
Stage 1 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 15 yard line. 6 rounds in 30 seconds.
Stage 2 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 7-yard line. Mandatory reload. 12 rounds in 45 seconds.
Stage 3 - Two hand high point from the holster. Single target, 7 -yard line. 3 rounds in 5 seconds. Repeat for a total of 6 rounds.
Minimum Score - Total of 40 rounds. Minimum Score of 80%. 32 of 40 rounds in the scoring area.


Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
The Florida test sounds pretty easy, I'm not knocking it or anything, and may be harder when you actually do it, but I am going to give it a try, sounds like the easiest to set up, if you are by yourself. What is considered a scoring hit?



Easy is an understatement. That kind of course looks like you should shoot about 95% or better to pass, not to mention that you only have to shoot it once every other year. Why even have qualifications with that standard? Most police courses are fairly easy to pass to begin with but that one might be the easiest.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:43:20 PM EDT
Sounds like it to me.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:47:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
What is considered a scoring hit?



Any thing within the 7 area of the silhouette. Head, shoulder, arm, hip and groin shots don't count. Believe me, if I got shot in the head or groin, I'd be out of the fight.

This is better than it was before. The only time you had to qualify was in the academy. No other qualifications were required, by law. Departments varied.


________________



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:03:37 AM EDT
So what happens if you fail to qualify for whatever reason?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:00:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Not nearly enough to be considered and expert, like most LEO's think they are.



Dale carnegie course is really paying off for you isn't it.

http://www.dalecarnegie.com/
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:33:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Punani:
So what happens if you fail to qualify for whatever reason?


Depends on the state. Here, no qual means no work.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:36:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Punani:
So what happens if you fail to qualify for whatever reason?



In Florida: Any officer who fails to meet the required firearms qualification standard shall be removed from sworn duty until he or she has met the required standard. Any officer who fails to meet the standard by June 30, 2008, shall have his/her certification made inactive.


_______________________________



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:58:30 AM EDT
I hate for anyone to lose their job, but if an officer can't pass the Florida test, they don't need to be an armed officer, receptionist, maybe, or some other duty, that does not require having a gun. I think the NRA would even go for that as a qualification to own a firearm. LOL!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:09:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Try our pistol practice quals. It's probably typical.
(5 half torso targets)

30 yard line. 1 round each in target 1,2,3,4,5. Last 2 rounds back to target #1. 15 seconds

15 yard line. Two rounds each target, return with last two rounds in target #1. 10 seconds.

10 yard line, (anti-armor drill) three rounds each target, 2 COM, 1 head shot each. 10 seconds.

7 yard line. 2 rounds each target, ending with another 2 in target #1. 5 seconds.

Reloads as required. No alibi rounds. 85% to pass.



Interesting.
First I've heard of a PD allowing/encouraging vertical tracking.
Glad to see they are adapting training to the unlikely, but possible, scenario of another NH.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:46:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 10:53:37 AM EDT by sta1treeman]
On the above test. (anti armor}, that is a total of 15 rds, on five targets, with five shots being head shots,from 10 yds, in 10 seconds? That sounds challenging, to say the least.... but will be fun to try. So does the next, 7yds, 12 rds com, 5 targets, 5 sec., Florida should give that a try. I'm sure most FL, LEOs can ace their own test, if not, they need alot more instruction, and range time, or another line of work.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:22:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Respectfully, what percentage of Law Enforcement Orgs have paramilitary tactical units like SWAT? Given the abundance of Municipal and County Dept's through the nation, I feel confident in estimating less than half do. If anyone has the actual data on that please post and correct me. And of that ">HALF" group what percentage of the Dept's total enforement officers are part of those SWAT teams? A smaller portion still. So expressing the opinions of rangemasters and SWAT guys is by all means, a tiny portion of the entire LEO population.



Frankly, I don't have a clue of how many depts have SWAT/SRT teams or how many sworn officers are members of those teams - it really doesn't matter. My point, that you obviously missed, is that the guys who would most likely think themselves experts don't - at least in my dept. Something about "those that can, do; those that can't, talk".

I don't think you'll ever find an officer that says he's required to do too much firearms training or defensive tactics - at least I've never met one.

Brian

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:55:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 7:02:36 AM EDT by Johninaustin]

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
On the above test. (anti armor}, that is a total of 15 rds, on five targets, with five shots being head shots,from 10 yds, in 10 seconds? That sounds challenging, to say the least.... but will be fun to try. So does the next, 7yds, 12 rds com, 5 targets, 5 sec., Florida should give that a try. I'm sure most FL, LEOs can ace their own test, if not, they need alot more instruction, and range time, or another line of work.



It SHOULD be challenging. We pirated it from the Wilson cup EIC matches. To be honest, most guys start making it about their 5th run-thru. It's difficult but not unsurmountable. I would suggest a high cap.

I can do it in about 8 seconds, (Beretta 92) some guys can beat me. The secret is to make all your head shots first going right to left, then do all the COM shots left to right. It's essentially 5 aimed shots and a mag dump.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:28:40 AM EDT
You need to remember.

The Florida State Firearms Qualification Standard For Active Law Enforcement Officers is a minimum qualification. My department has always had stricter qualifications that changed ever time. No two were the same to keep you on your toes. My captain/range master is hell on us.

____________________________



Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:18:45 AM EDT
I tried the FL. test at the range Wed. afternoon, it was way to easy! I do understand the minnimum requirement part of it, and figure most agencies do require more, at least they should.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 12:06:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 12:07:42 PM EDT by Colt_SBR]

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
I tried the FL. test at the range Wed. afternoon, it was way to easy! I do understand the minnimum requirement part of it, and figure most agencies do require more, at least they should.



Not to flame but, your job wasn’t on the line if you didn't shoot well. You didn't have some guy yelling at you trying to make you nervous. You also didn't have to reload under pressure. You didn't have the law suits in the back of your mind if you do shoot someone.

I'm not saying it's not easy but there are other factors involved.



____________________________



Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:48:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:36:47 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By brian4wd:
Frankly, I don't have a clue of how many depts have SWAT/SRT teams or how many sworn officers are members of those teams - it really doesn't matter. My point, that you obviously missed, is that the guys who would most likely think themselves experts don't - at least in my dept. Something about "those that can, do; those that can't, talk".

I don't think you'll ever find an officer that says he's required to do too much firearms training or defensive tactics - at least I've never met one.

Brian

On the contrary, I got your point just fine Brian. The part that went over your head was that your "point" is dull and insignificant, even though it is not incorrect. You're refering to SWAT guys in a thread about LEO's in general. That's like talking about NASCAR, BUSH, and INDY drivers in a thread about drivers in general. My brother and some of my friends are LEO's. They are all proficient with their guns, but none are experts.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:53:45 PM EDT
We start from contact distance with the target, work back to the 5, 7, 15 then 25 yard lines. 50 rounds total.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 1:54:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 1:55:14 PM EDT by BeachPatrol]
Whoops double tap.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:17:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:22:18 PM EDT by sta1treeman]

Originally Posted By Colt_SBR:

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
I tried the FL. test at the range Wed. afternoon, it was way to easy! I do understand the minnimum requirement part of it, and figure most agencies do require more, at least they should.



Not to flame but, your job wasn’t on the line if you didn't shoot well. You didn't have some guy yelling at you trying to make you nervous. You also didn't have to reload under pressure. You didn't have the law suits in the back of your mind if you do shoot someone.

I'm not saying it's not easy but there are other factors involved.

--------------------------------------------------------IN REPLY TO COLT_SBR----------------------------
There is a lot of responsibility that goes with being a LEO, most is under appreciated by the general public. Being able to pass a minimum firearm qualification test , I think, is more for the officer's own good. I don't know exact numbers, but would guess, most often, when an officer fires his weapon, in the line of duty, it is in self defense, rather than defending someone else. The pressure at that time, would far exceed what a range officer could dish out. (IMO)sta1treeman
____________________________

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