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Ok

I have a couple of minutes.

Like said above, 5.7 is a gimmick round, like 45GAP and 357 Sig. Unlike the other two, there are a lot of other platforms that fire those rounds, and a lot of people making bullets and accessories for them. You buy into 5.7, you are kind of locked into a bottleneck. If there is a production burp or issue; you're fucked. Which is ok if you're with the stinky creek metro task force; go to the pawn shop and buy something else. When you're NYPD, you forecast in the tens of years. (Imagine just having the contract for mag cases)

There is nothing about 5.7 that makes it a 'must-have' caliber.

This dovetails into the next point: there is nothing about any modern fighting pistol caliber that makes it head and shoulders above another. However, back in the late 80's when I started, there were several calibers that were definitely lacking.

For instance, 9mm. They worked hard on practical applications, but the metallurgy and computer modelling wasn't there yet. As a result, there was a steady stream of failures. Or, people carrying FMJ / ball rounds, and complaining about terminal effects (with, good reason in many applications).

Now, bullet technology has made leaps and bounds. Looking at real-world terminal effects, and tons of various types of testing, a 9mm is now so close to .40 and .45 there's really not a difference that makes any difference (lol)

(In simpler terms, new tech didn't make 9 BETTER than 40/45/10, it brought it UP to where it was an equal, more or less)

When effects are similar enough, then you can ethically look at other petals of the flower, like capacity, platforms, accessories, operation and cost-per-round.

In the first three cases, they are pretty dang similar now, as well. This leaves cost per initial platform purchase, and cost per round of duty and training ammo. Currently, 9mm is a NATO standard round, and it is everywhere, and plentiful, and relatively inexpensive versus say 10mm (or, 5.7).

It is in the pipeline, it is something that has a long history, and the platforms are fairly mature and robust now.

Far as operation, when you are in a small unit, you can diversify. Again, when you are outfitting a 5'6" 95 pound female and a 6'5" 300 pound male, 1100 of them at a time, you have to pick things that work sort of well for the greatest percentile.

This is not just my opinion; people who really balance on the point of the spear, and can have anything they want, are bellwethers for me. Look at Naval special warfare, Marine special operations, and other organic shooter organizations. Lots of Glock 19's. Police agencies? The 17 and 22 fit the same holster, there are probably 17 mags and 9mm ammo already in the pipeline; easy to switch into.

Is it the 'best' handgun round? Depends on what best is? Best for an Olympic shooter is different than best for a person detailed to carry a firearm, that you don't invest a lot of training time or money into, or want a lot of disuniformity in firearm choices.

I switched back to 9 for (dirtbag security guard) duty carry. I can carry literally anything I want here. I don't feel undergunned with current platforms or caliber. If I thought I was going to get in a shootout tomorrow, I wouldn't be ratcheting up my pistol, either (except maybe making sure I was carrying a fullsize and more magazines). I'd be in plates and a carbine.

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I'd like to know what magic is being used on the 9mm that is not on other calibers? 1980's it was deemed $hit round now its the best round as technology has made it better then the 40 or 45. So has no one applied that technology to these bullets yet?

Watched the FBI testing and it seemed like so much smoke being blown up my @ss that you could call it smoked pork butt!

Can't talk about how technology has made the bullet expand more and the powder is better and so on. All these things can be applied to the 40 and 45 can't they? You would think unless we now have magic people who said they will only load 9mm!

Again no flame on anyone who carries the 9mm! I guess I don't understand how technology only improves one caliber and it makes that 116-year-old caliber top bullet! Yet it has nothing to do with cost or officers who are not shooters or that are female qualify!

No flame on the ladies I have meet many they could outshoot me with a large caliber pistol! Yet really most a vast majority of female officers I worked with and trained with could not shoot.

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Get out of my car, kid

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Kid!!!?? I have killed more people in combat then you!

So, please tell me your experience!

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Ok I'm done here.

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The Federal Air Marshals carry the 357sig, and as an agency, they are also the best shooters in law enforcement. Its not because they are all 6' line backers, its because they spend enough time training on the range to become that good. Most agencies dont devote that much time to firearms training. If they all did, then everyone would be carrying a 10mm...

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We switched from the Sig 220 to the Glock 17/19/26 depending on your position in the agency.  Up until the switch we were allowed to carry personal weapons which I did and it wasn’t the Sig.  once I saw the writing in the wall I started to carry a Glock that I had acquired.  I’m not a Glock fan but their rules so I carry what they tell me.  Anyways cost and the amount of ammunition you could carry was the two biggest driving factors.  We carry the G2 ammunition and we recently had a OIS shooting and the round did as designed.  The county to the Southwest of me had their bailifs and SRO’s carrying the 5.7 and it didn’t last long.

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Statistics show that all handgun rounds suck, just about equally...

That said, you get the "Mah .45 will never be less than .45 and it's been proven since 1911"

You get the "Mah 9 will load on Monday and shoot until Sunday - It's what the .GOV issues"

And the people in the middle who say that "mah .40 is bigger than a lil ol' 9mm and holds nearly twice more than .45 guns - it's the best of both worlds"...

All are 3rd rate compared to a rifle or shotgun, but give yourself the mental boost that whatever you choose is 'The Best" "

BIGGER_HAMMER

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What in the world?  

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Check your PM.

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I've drunk more beer and banged more quiff and pissed more blood and stomped more ass than all of you numbnuts put together.

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Would your department have said that in the 1980's?

If they have changed since then gone to the 40 now 9mm! They are FBI fans!

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"Combat"?  Were any with 5.7?

You also have been at more agencies than Galls sales rep.

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Something about average accuracy scores were lower with the 40's and the advancement in defensive rounds made the 9mm just as good or good enough.  I'm sure the ammo being cheaper helped also.

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When USBP went to the .40 they also went with the TQ-15 target which had a bigger 5 ring and shot only to 25 yards.  The old patrol shot .357s to 50 yards on a Transtar target with a smaller 5 ring.

I can see better scores on the TQ-15 with a 9mm because it has a generous 5 ring but not because agents have become better shooters.  I have seen females shoot expert scores with plenty of practice on their part with the .40 so it has nothing to do with the "weaker sex" not being able to shoot.   It's all about plenty of practice and dedication to becoming proficient.

I will say that the HK P2000 with the LEM trigger shot better than the Beretta 96D  at least it did for me.  However those P2000s have taken a pounding with the .40 for those that shot the hell out of it and not the ones that were only fired 4 times a year for less than 300 rounds.

I've always been surprised how some people were perfectly happy to get by with a minimal score rather than spend time and effort to get proficient with a skill that would not only save their lives but others as well.

Anyhoo whatever you carry, make sure you practice, practice and practice.

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The FBI has no credibility.  Fools rush in.

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Unsure of what point you are trying to make.

The 9BPLE round has an excellent track record in real life shootings and has been around for a very long time.  It doesn't meet the FBI specs but does work very well in real life.  There are even better rounds available now.

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As someone who carried the 9BPLE, I can tell you it is hopelessly outdated and archaic.  First of  +P+ is not a true SAAMI designation. It was made up to sell ammo to fools. Secondly, the Ogive on the 9BPLE is more of a FMJ with a tiny hollow point. It has a 115 Gr. bullet so it was moving pretty fast, when it hits flesh, it clogs easy and acts like...... an FMJ.  Neat little holes is not what you want. A buddy of mine shot up a turd once, all he managed to do was literally blow one of the guy's balls off, he lived another day to try and sue.   You want to carry a 9MM round? Carry something close to a Speer Gold Dot 124Gr.. +P.

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PCSO, back about 10 years ago?

I know a nearby very small agency based around a single venue, whose supervision *almost* decided to switch from .40 to .357 SIG...for enhanced penetration...issuing to officers whose jurisdiction consists almost exclusively of densely packed residential housing.  Luckily that was reconsidered...

Anyone still aware of any agencies allowing SAO 1911s, out of curiosity?  Completely unheard of around here...

The decision here was made to stick with .40....and apparently a large part of that reasoning was because of the cost of new holsters.  Guns are practically free these days to departments, it would seem, but no one is taking trade-in holsters and offering 1 for 1 deals on new models, for some odd reason...

Quoted:

PCSO, back about 10 years ago?

I know a nearby very small agency based around a single venue, whose supervision *almost* decided to switch from .40 to .357 SIG...for enhanced penetration...issuing to officers whose jurisdiction consists almost exclusively of densely packed residential housing.  Luckily that was reconsidered...

Anyone still aware of any agencies allowing SAO 1911s, out of curiosity?  Completely unheard of around here...

The decision here was made to stick with .40....and apparently a large part of that reasoning was because of the cost of new holsters.  Guns are practically free these days to departments, it would seem, but no one is taking trade-in holsters and offering 1 for 1 deals on new models, for some odd reason...