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Posted: 12/2/2002 8:18:50 PM EDT
..Because I made a dumb-ass mistake. Back story: Cited & released a guy for B&P 4060 - Possession of controlled substance without a prescription (Vicodin). He didnt have his CDL on him. But knew the number and the physical on the DL matched him. Today: Get to court and the defendant who showed up in court isnt the guy I cited. It's the BROTHER of the guy I cited. The suspect, a parolee with a history of drug arrest gave me his brothers ID info. And I bought it hook line & sinker. To make matters worse I didnt have an ink pad with me that night, so I didnt even get the suspects thumb print on the cite. Making it pretty much impossible to go after him at this point. From now on EVERYONE is getting printed, I dont care if they have ten forms of ID. I'm not citing and releasing anyone who doesnt posssess a picture ID, No ID...sorry, you're getting booked.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:23:11 PM EDT
sounds like the perp has done that before you'll get em next time.. live and learn! [:)]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 5:36:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 6:14:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 6:21:36 AM EDT
I seriously doubt if the dirt bag will never commit another crime again...
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 6:41:19 AM EDT
Don't let it get you down. Get back out there and break a leg! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 10:01:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2002 10:01:48 AM EDT by Henny]
Don't sweat it. Still get paid on Friday right? [:D]
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 10:31:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: ..Because I made a dumb-ass mistake. Back story: Cited & released a guy for B&P 4060 - Possession of controlled substance without a prescription (Vicodin). He didnt have his CDL on him. But knew the number and the physical on the DL matched him. Today: Get to court and the defendant who showed up in court isnt the guy I cited. It's the BROTHER of the guy I cited. The suspect, a parolee with a history of drug arrest gave me his brothers ID info. And I bought it hook line & sinker. To make matters worse I didnt have an ink pad with me that night, so I didnt even get the suspects thumb print on the cite. Making it pretty much impossible to go after him at this point. From now on EVERYONE is getting printed, I dont care if they have ten forms of ID. I'm not citing and releasing anyone who doesnt posssess a picture ID, No ID...sorry, you're getting booked.
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That's how its done here...everyone w/o ID goes directly to jail if they have committed any violations of law. Thought that was the norm
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 1:23:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2002 1:24:55 PM EDT by Luckystiff]
Bud you can go after his ass BIG TIME. I can't find the section but in the identity theft stuff in the penal code it states that if you give false info of another, who is a real person, where that person would be harmed ect, like going to jail, your guilty. Dam I wish I could find that section. Anyway go after his ass. I think the section I am thinking of is a wobbler. If he is a parole it should be easy to tag him. I love dumb crooks. They keep my stats high. Edited to say: This only applies if you are working in the PRK. W&I 4060 was kind of a give away.
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 2:54:08 PM EDT
Go to the prosecutor ask to charge the brother with obstruction or false ID . If you can ID the perp he might do it, I have even charged with eluding by false ID and won a conviction on this, good luck don't let it get ya down . it has happened to us all at least once,if you put in enough years. police are citizens with more responsibility
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 3:14:25 PM EDT
If I understand you right. If I forget my wallet at home and I have by mistake and I get pulled over for speeding your going to take me to jail because of that? Granted I know I know's wrong to do so but people are not always perfect.
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 4:36:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 2:45:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sned45: If I understand you right. If I forget my wallet at home and I have by mistake and I get pulled over for speeding your going to take me to jail because of that? Granted I know I know's wrong to do so but people are not always perfect.
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If we cannot properly identify you on the roadside, we have every right to bring you to our office until we CAN identify you.So carry your ID.
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 9:35:16 PM EDT
I love that crap. "You mean if I break the law your going to arrest ME?" "Yes, that is my job. Now turn around an put your hands behind your back." "But that was one of those little stupid laws. I don't like that law. Besides it doesn't apply to me. I'm special. Mama said I'm special. I'M SPECIAL ... I'M SPECIAL. DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?"
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 12:49:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legalese77: That's how its done here...everyone w/o ID goes directly to jail if they have committed any violations of law. Thought that was the norm
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Our jails are too crowded for that. We only book violent misdemeanors & felonies. Non violent felonies are OR'd, non violent misdemeanors and cited and released.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 1:11:29 PM EDT
wow, they must be awful crowded...local jails are crowded here too but that doesn't seem to stop them. oh well. he'll probably pop up again huh? his time will come.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 3:12:12 PM EDT
talk to the brother you cited, obviously he knows where the other brother is because he showed up in court... then interview him and let him know that he can be charged with obstructing legal process and aiding/abetting a felon. then think about parole/probation violation for the one you cited as well. it's happened to all of us. believe me...
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:24:30 AM EDT
That's a misdemeanor in this state for supplying bad info to be used on a citation and a felony, perjury, when the guys signs the citation. This is getting more common here also, but don't call it a mistake if you were following the SOP. I like to prosecute people for perjury, it sort of sets them up for no credibility for future cases against them.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 12:05:01 PM EDT
I'm just curious as to the "Possession of controlled substance without a prescription (Vicodin)". I'm not aware that you are required to carry around your prescription with you so how did you know he didn't have a prescription? From the way you wrote it up it sounds like the guy didn't have a presc., prior drug arrests, false id, etc... But if you pull me over and see the pillbox in the console containing Vicodin(yes prescribed,car acc.)? What then? I don't carry my presc. around with me, who does?
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 3:48:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gman350: I'm just curious as to the "Possession of controlled substance without a prescription (Vicodin)". I'm not aware that you are required to carry around your prescription with you so how did you know he didn't have a prescription? From the way you wrote it up it sounds like the guy didn't have a presc., prior drug arrests, false id, etc... But if you pull me over and see the pillbox in the console containing Vicodin(yes prescribed,car acc.)? What then? I don't carry my presc. around with me, who does?
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the way i look at it is like this: if the person's name is on the bottle and the identification checks out, then it's yours. then i start looking at how many are in the bottle and when it was prescribed. do teh math and there should be a calculatable amount in the bottle.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 4:43:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By b910:
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the way i look at it is like this: if the person's name is on the bottle and the identification checks out, then it's yours. then i start looking at how many are in the bottle and when it was prescribed. do teh math and there should be a calculatable amount in the bottle.
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And if they are in a pillbox like you buy in Wal-Mart with a mix of Tylenol,aspirin, Gas-X, etc...ie no name on the bottle? Then what? If you know anyone over 60 you know that this is how meds are carried, mostly due to the sheer volume of meds for various ailments.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 8:50:12 PM EDT
and i am trying to remember how many 60 year old tweekers i have arrested in the past for possession of bean-o.... j/k most tweekers here in my county don't carry their stash in a "daily-dose" container. if i see one or feel one (plain view or terry stop), i ask about it. judging by the reaction/excuse i get, it'll determine the course of action i take (e.g.: it's my grandma's... then would you mind me looking in it and why do you have it, etc?). and regarding the 60 year olds carrying his or her spouse's meds, well, that is the same deal outline above; my mom carries her husband's meds for him in her purse and he is usually with her when she does, case solved. people that require meds to live are rarely far away from them. if i am going through unlabeled pill bottles, then the person is probably already under arrest for something else. and then i check any odd-looking or unmarked pills out with the PDR. but, if the person is carrying a non-prescription type of bottle, then i would need a search warrant to look inside of it if that person is not under arrest (4th amendment), unless that person decides to let me look in the bottle (waiver of rights). i am hard-pressed to think of how i would articulate in court if i were to decide to take a pill bottle away from a person and dump the contents out without probable cause. yea, there may be an ounce of pot in ol' stanley's rolaids bottle, but unless i can explain why i needed to look in that bottle, i won't be poppin' the cap on that thing; rolaids aren't considered contraband yet (lol). i seriously doubt that even a terry-stop would be valid enough to look in that bottle. one can imagine a million different scenarios regarding how a criminal carries dope and it would be virtually impossible to address those issues in its entirety here(think about the unsanitary ways dope can be carried). just my two pennies worth. flame me if i am wrong.
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 12:17:49 AM EDT
I completely overlooked the fact that you're probably already in trouble by the time things are being searched. Thanks for the answer.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 12:33:50 AM EDT
hey, that's why this is called a discussion board. have a good one and stay safe.
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 11:01:55 AM EDT
HERE'S WHAT I'DE DO I'M IN S.C. I'DE GET A WARRANT FOR THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY RECHARGE HIM ALSO FOR FALSE INFO. FIND OUT IF THE BROTHER WAS IN ON IT TOO SOME TIMES THE BROTHERS ARE IN ON IT. HAVE A FAMILY REUNION AT THE P.D. AND FIND OUT IF THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY IS ON PROBATION GET HIS ASS VIOLATED. CALL PROBATION.. JUST WHAT I'DE DO IF SOME ONE DOESNT HAVE I.D. THE NORM IS TAKE THEM IN AND POSITIVE I.D. THEM ........
Link Posted: 12/11/2002 12:36:59 PM EDT
[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:7IJ84ckAjNgC:www.ivygreen.ctc.edu/avery/activities/tech/images/Caps_Lock.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 5:24:06 AM EDT
[/quote] the way i look at it is like this: if the person's name is on the bottle and the identification checks out, then it's yours. then i start looking at how many are in the bottle and when it was prescribed. do teh math and there should be a calculatable amount in the bottle. [/quote] You open my pill bottle and take out and touch my $3.00 prescription pills and you or your department are going to pay for new ones.
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 8:37:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2002 8:39:51 AM EDT by kay9]
Originally Posted By ctyatty: the way i look at it is like this: if the person's name is on the bottle and the identification checks out, then it's yours. then i start looking at how many are in the bottle and when it was prescribed. do teh math and there should be a calculatable amount in the bottle.
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Uh yeah sure! By the time you get your new ones the odds are you'll be cured! ctyatty=county attorney?[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/12/2002 2:28:18 PM EDT
My disagreement is with the notion that a cop needs to be counting pills that are already known to be in proper hands, if an officer in my jurisdiction did this, he'd get an ass chewing from me.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 12:21:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2002 12:26:25 AM EDT by b910]
i guess i failed to completely explain myself, figures an attorney would argue a moot point. the point i was trying to get across was that if i have already arrested a person (alluded to in original post) and that person has in their possession a prescription bottle that has their name on it, i have every right to look in it and count the contents. it is part of being taken into custody and/or booked into my jail. and if what i said isn't clear enough, then i refer you to my previous post dated 12-08-2002 at 12:50:12. further clarification: the original post also stated that the person wasn't positively identified. so, how do i know that the pill bottle in possession really belongs to the person that isn't readily identified?
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 5:54:43 AM EDT
The actual deal involved a non-identified person who was cited and released, then the example of a person whose "identification checks out" was mentioned along with the idea of counting pills. That's the way I took it. Your BS insult of me because I'm attorney reflects poorly on your training. As a peace officer you follow the law and are subject to the decisions of the prosecutor. The case is subject to the decision of another lawyer, the judge. Go read the Constitution which you are sworn to uphold and lose the attitude about lawyers or get out of law enforcement.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 8:26:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 9:43:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ctyatty: Your BS insult of me because I'm attorney reflects poorly on your training. As a peace officer you follow the law and are subject to the decisions of the prosecutor. The case is subject to the decision of another lawyer, the judge. Go read the Constitution which you are sworn to uphold and lose the attitude about lawyers or get out of law enforcement.
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Most of us have pretty poor experiences with most "lawyers" over the course of a career. You'd better expect some razzing if you post to officers.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 9:45:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ctyatty: You open my pill bottle and take out and touch my $3.00 prescription pills and you or your department are going to pay for new ones.
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I wonder if Winona Ryder said this to the guys trying to figure out what was REALLY in the prescription bottles on her when she was arrested.....
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 4:09:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ctyatty: You open my pill bottle and take out and touch my $3.00 prescription pills and you or your department are going to pay for new ones.
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and speaking of losing an attitude, i don't take kindly to threats. i deem all comments such as the one above as unprofessional, childish and certainly unfounded as well. as you may recall, the original post said that the person was being cited and released. if i am citing someone, then it is certainly an arrest and it is with my discretion that the person is released. however, in the case of arrest, i have every right to search the person and/or immediate area because it is incident to arrest (referring to "My disagreement is with the notion that a cop needs to be counting pills that are already known to be in proper hands, if an officer in my jurisdiction did this, he'd get an ass chewing from me"). and as far as my attitude about attorneys, please consider: "lose the attitude about lawyers or get out of law enforcement," it is no doubt why many of us have the "attitude." in my county, i appreciate my county attorney, and his entire staff. i maintain contact with them on a regular basis so that we all have a common understanding of what is expected at all levels of our criminal justice system.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 6:39:47 PM EDT
I've always had the upmost respect for all law enforcement but I have to draw the line here with the pill bit. What I have in my pill bottle is for me to know and me only. Mind your own business, do you really think John Q wants you to know that hes' on prozac? It's bad enough being harassed for some bogus technicality or $15.00 fine. But this is going to far. I don't drink, I don't use drugs. I drive bettter then 99% of people on the roads here. It just kills me to get pulled over by the cop I just passed talking on his cell phone and then have him pull some crap like this. "Oh you do have your seat belt on, Oh I didn't see it. Well whats in that pill bottle? Do you have insurance? When was the last time you used the rest room? Etc.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 6:58:17 PM EDT
folks, this is getting carried away. this whole issue of "what's in the bottle," revolves around the essence of "incident to arrest." i cannot, i would not, and will not ever look in a container under non-arrest or non-warrant status.
Link Posted: 12/13/2002 8:19:05 PM EDT
folks, this is getting carried away. this whole issue of "what's in the bottle," revolves around the essence of "incident to arrest." i cannot, i would not, and will not ever look in a container under non-arrest or non-warrant status.
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Agreed, police should serve and protect not raise revenue and harass. Ar15fan didn't mention why he stopped the guy in the first place, but we know for certain everyone he stops from now on will get printed and/or booked, Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? I know you guys have a hard job. I'm in favor of helping you get it done in any way necessary however in my opinion there is way to much officer discretion involved here. Too some people getting arrested is just as terrifying as being jailed. I don't see how you could reason any level of fairness of arresting some poor guy when he may have only forgotten his ID and prescription.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 6:23:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By b910: folks, this is getting carried away. this whole issue of "what's in the bottle," revolves around the essence of "incident to arrest." i cannot, i would not, and will not ever look in a container under non-arrest or non-warrant status.
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Sorry for the sharpness of my comment, this is 100% OK with me. Going after dopers is the key to 85% of what ails my community, reduce substance abuse and everything from burglary to divorce to juvenile delinquency goes down. Remember community comes before police in "community policing."
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 8:37:59 PM EDT
AR15fan, what exactly did this guy do to deserve this harasment from you ? A guy has pills with no perscription ? Big fucking deal.
Link Posted: 12/15/2002 11:30:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: A guy has pills with no perscription ? Big fucking deal.
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Because it's not only stupid to share prescription meds, it's illegal. It's not that hard to understand..... Brian
Link Posted: 12/16/2002 5:15:41 AM EDT
People in the drug culture often have so little regard for their health that they will take anything. Then when these burned-out dopers need medical care, you and I pay. One of the first rules of civilization is don't be a burden on society if you can be a contributing member.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 3:55:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar15junkie1:
folks, this is getting carried away. this whole issue of "what's in the bottle," revolves around the essence of "incident to arrest." i cannot, i would not, and will not ever look in a container under non-arrest or non-warrant status.
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Agreed, police should serve and protect not raise revenue and harass. Ar15fan didn't mention why he stopped the guy in the first place, but we know for certain everyone he stops from now on will get printed and/or booked, Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? I know you guys have a hard job. I'm in favor of helping you get it done in any way necessary however in my opinion there is way to much officer discretion involved here. Too some people getting arrested is just as terrifying as being jailed. I don't see how you could reason any level of fairness of arresting some poor guy when he may have only forgotten his ID and prescription.
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What would be MORE wrong? That someone goes to jail and posts bond on a ticket for not having their license or ID with them, or that some Joe Schmoe gives a fake name,doesn't show up for court,has a warrant issued for John Q.,and John Q. has to post bond on a traffic warrant for a violation he never commited?I have seen it several times.Who has been wronged more? On a side note,where I come from, tickets are 'courtesies'.They are also summonses in lieu of an arrest.Granted, if we put everyone in jail for no seat belt or flashing red light, then the jail might overcrowd.But do you honestly think that the average person is going to sit in jail and get time served for a measley seat belt ticket? Where I come from, we also arrest people on traffic stops for not having an ID with them.The moral of the story is simple,it was even said in a previous post,carry your ID with you.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:15:24 AM EDT
In this state for traffic offenses, an officer does not have the discretion to decide to arrest instead of a cite and release. There are written guidelines. Like all resources, good management is necessary. Once an appropriate arrest decision is made, then count pills as well as inventory everything else.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 3:19:14 PM EDT
What is hard to understand is why you should give a fuck what drugs someone else is taking. If he is not under the influence of them while driving, leave the poor guy alone.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:37:57 PM EDT
On a side note,where I come from, tickets are 'courtesies'.They are also summonses in lieu of an arrest.
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Well then I suppose I should thank you for not further harassing me. Are you familiar with the term Jackbooted thug?
Granted, if we put everyone in jail for no seat belt or flashing red light, then the jail might overcrowd.But do you honestly think that the average person is going to sit in jail and get time served for a measley seat belt ticket.
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According to popular idea in this forum you may just as well execute the guy. I'm sure if you violated enough of the subjects rights you could get him to fry.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:45:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2002 9:06:49 PM EDT by ar15junkie1]
What is hard to understand is why you should give a fuck what drugs someone else is taking. If he is not under the influence of them while driving, leave the poor guy alone.
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You guys should all read a book by Vin Suprynowicz called "The Ballad of Carl Drega". It lists many examples of unchecked powers of the state and federal levels run rampant. These guys are a perfect example.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 11:43:49 PM EDT
[/quote] Well then I suppose I should thank you for not further harassing me. Are you familiar with the term Jackbooted thug? According to popular idea in this forum you may just as well execute the guy. I'm sure if you violated enough of the subjects rights you could get him to fry.[/quote] jack·boot also jack-boot n. A stout military boot that extends above the knee. A person who uses bullying tactics, especially to force compliance. The spirit sustaining and motivating a militaristic, highly aggressive, or totalitarian regime or system. n. A cutthroat or ruffian; a hoodlum. also Thug One of a band of professional assassins formerly active in northern India who worshiped Kali and offered their victims to her. Dang... They seem to have left something out... They forgot all the federales who seek only to further their own agenda while stepping on as many people as possible and taking as many constitutional rights away as they can. Sorry, man, I don't qualify as a Jackbooted thug.And as far as that goes,the 'Jackbooted thugs' will piss all over us state,parish or county,and municipal people just as fast as they will ordinary civilians. I try to be reasonable with everyone I deal with.I don't like writing tickets.You can talk me out of writing a ticket faster than you can talk me in to writing one.My department gets absolutely none of the money generated by tickets, so I don't see any reason to fund a local municipality with my work, and not get anything in return. As always, common sense should prevail,but that seems to be lacking alot these days...
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 1:23:49 AM EDT
Sorry, man, I don't qualify as a Jackbooted thug.And as far as that goes,the 'Jackbooted thugs' will piss all over us state,parish or county,and municipal people just as fast as they will ordinary civilians. I try to be reasonable with everyone I deal with.I don't like writing tickets.You can talk me out of writing a ticket faster than you can talk me in to writing one.My department gets absolutely none of the money generated by tickets, so I don't see any reason to fund a local municipality with my work, and not get anything in return. As always, common sense should prevail,but that seems to be lacking alot these days...
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Wow thats exactly what I've been trying to say all along. Unfortunatly you seem to be the exception rather then the rule. I've yet to see ar15fan post his "reasonsonable cause" for stopping this guy in the first place which leads me to believe his reason was insufficient. Ar15Fan Please tell me I'm wrong. I'd hate to think of some guy losing his job because he was arrested for not carrying the prescription that the pharmacist normally keeps. Please tell when the almost thorough jackbooted thug definition came from? I prefer to not use the term to identify any particular organazation or department. It fits the description of many groups.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 1:30:28 AM EDT
and speaking of losing an attitude, i don't take kindly to threats. i deem all comments such as the one above as unprofessional, childish and certainly unfounded as well.
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Wow. A cop suggesting a civillian loose the attitute. Thats like the pot calling the .. Nevermind you wouldn't understand.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 5:01:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: What is hard to understand is why you should give a fuck what drugs someone else is taking. If he is not under the influence of them while driving, leave the poor guy alone.
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Illicit drugs aren't bad because they're illegal, they're illegal because they're bad for you.
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