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Posted: 8/11/2002 6:46:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2002 7:32:27 PM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 8/12/2002 1:59:36 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 8/13/2002 7:25:39 AM EDT
Not defending the pathetic old bastard, he got what he earned. The militia movement as originally intended was founded on sound principles but, as with everything else, it has been perverted in some areas as places for some really disturbed folks to congregate. I've met some "militia" guys that were just normal people sending a political message. I've also met some that are real freaks. Paranoids on the far end of the "Art Bell" spectrum that see goblins behind every tree. Also of interest to you guys should be the caliber of that pistol. Some Czech handguns are chambered in the .30 Tokarev (7.62x25mm). This round has been demonstrated to penetrate early Lvl IIa armor in standard FMJ. It's very reliable due to a bottleneck case design and the guns are rugged. They are also very inexpensive, averaging $150 to $200 each. Check the Shotgun News periodically and it will give you an idea of what's readily available out there. Be careful and check 6.
Link Posted: 8/13/2002 7:34:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2002 7:39:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2002 8:09:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2002 10:05:05 PM EDT
This dude needs to fry... Having said that, I really don't see the connection (so far) to any militia, so in my eyes this is really just another opportunity for the media to have a feeding-frenzy over ANYTHING they can possibly connect with any form of gun ownership or organized-conservative thinking. I have no desire to align with any militia, but the headline could have just as well read, "Killer linked to local Baptist church" for that matter, as neither organization (again, so far) have any real connection or bearing on this trajedy. I think to jump on this bandwagon too quickly is giving validity to the liberal media cause. Chris (waiting for the verbal beating)
Link Posted: 8/14/2002 4:43:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2002 10:25:45 AM EDT
Just imagine what a happy place this is now. I'll bet everybody from the school lunch lady to the retired vets in the old folks home are planning to lynch "Militia members" As for the police, I'm sure they are worried about a cowardly anonymous note left at a memorial site. Speaks volumes about the scummy bastards who just declared a war they don't have the guts for. Since the officer was black, I wonder how long it'll be before the Aryan/KKK filth comes along to defend this guy?
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 5:14:17 AM EDT
How did he get shot in the ass, at an angle travelling upward into the body cavity?
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 5:36:54 AM EDT
[url]http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/3860668.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 5:51:49 AM EDT
IIRC, wasn't an unarmed militia member shot down in a traffic stop somewhere in Ohio something like 5 years ago? I think it was down near Columbus, but honestly remember very little. Anybody remember anything like that? Anyway...I can't imagine a situation in which I would find it necessary to shoot an officer who pulled me over. I won't even shoot [u]when[/u] the gubmint busts my door down to take my firearms. [Anybody who thinks they can find [u]all[/u] my weapons has another thing coming. ;)] The guys doing the dirty work are more or less regular folks (not counting the occasional control freak), and don't deserve to get shot.
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 8:23:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2002 8:27:23 AM EDT by Johninaustin]
There was a shootout around Columbus with troopers on a traffic stop about 4-5 years ago, no body died and one bad guy ran. He was profiled on Americas Most Wanted I think. The Militia/white supremicist guys had pistols and body armor. That's the only one I can think of.
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 1:57:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2002 6:36:09 PM EDT
The Kehoe's were far from "unarmed".
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 6:28:10 PM EDT
I dont think of White Supremists and morons who call themselves "militia" as militia. especially that pagan cult, the KKK. To me and most people with common sense. A civilian militia's purpose is defense of the public body as well as the last line of defense of loss of rights. The "militia" member here is obviously a criminal thug who refered to himself as one. I could say that im a member of the Mafia, but this does not make me one. Nor does an organized group of armed individuals make them a militia. Why not call gangs militias? Also some half-charismatic racist jerkoff with a private army is also not a militia. Would they come to the defense of the state at the risk of their own lives? Or even the rights of those not like them in apperance/beleifs. I think not. lib
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 6:48:05 PM EDT
That "Kehoe" incident took place about 20 miles from here in Wilmington. Those guys were already wanted for crimes in other states, including suspicion of murder. Genuine whack jobs that though they had nothing to lose. Even sader was the keystone cops routine. State HIGHWAY Patrol couldn't hit the perp - at 20 feet! LAter in another exchange all the cops accomplished was shooting a bystander. Not one of law enforcements better days IMHO. Fortunately the Kehoes were later caught, tried and locked away for a long time.
Link Posted: 8/17/2002 7:12:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2002 7:18:23 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By fizassist: IIRC, wasn't an unarmed militia member shot down in a traffic stop somewhere in Ohio something like 5 years ago? I think it was down near Columbus, but honestly remember very little. Anybody remember anything like that?
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You do not remember correctly. He was not unarmed. He was armed with .45 auto pistol and was properly shot and killed by a State Trooper near Frazeyburg, closer to Newark, Ohio than Columbus. He was a "Chaplain" for the Ohio Unorganized Militia. He was also formerly a police officer with the Canton, Ohio Police Department. He was considered by his former coworkers there to be a "nut job". Ask me how I know via email. Incidently, I posted the info about the murder of Ptl. Taylor on the morning August 10th. It got a lot of looks but no comment until Shotar mentioned the militia link. I guess until then the story wasn't sensational enough. Just another dead cop.
Link Posted: 8/18/2002 11:29:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By i_like_bush: This dude needs to fry... Having said that, I really don't see the connection (so far) to any militia, so in my eyes this is really just another opportunity for the media to have a feeding-frenzy over ANYTHING they can possibly connect with any form of gun ownership or organized-conservative thinking.
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I have to agree 100%...I know some militia type folks, can only say one is a nutjob, but even he is o.k. One of the lines in the story that is pissing me off...."Mizeres said the gun can be purchased at Gunshows and gunshops" ...and so can 99% of every gun in america..I hate the media!
Link Posted: 8/19/2002 3:06:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Originally Posted By fizassist: IIRC, wasn't an unarmed militia member shot down in a traffic stop somewhere in Ohio something like 5 years ago? I think it was down near Columbus, but honestly remember very little. Anybody remember anything like that?
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You do not remember correctly. He was not unarmed. He was armed with .45 auto pistol and was properly shot and killed by a State Trooper near Frazeyburg, closer to Newark, Ohio than Columbus. He was a "Chaplain" for the Ohio Unorganized Militia. He was also formerly a police officer with the Canton, Ohio Police Department. He was considered by his former coworkers there to be a "nut job". Ask me how I know via email.
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Ya know, I wanted to say Frazeysburg, but I wasn't sure. I used to drive through there all the time when I went to OSU. From what you say, it sounds like this guy drew first? At the time, I remember thinking that the shooting sounded fishy, but I don't have anything at all to back that up. What was the guy's name? I gather this is different from the Kehoe incident mentioned above?
Link Posted: 8/19/2002 6:40:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fizassist:
Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Originally Posted By fizassist: IIRC, wasn't an unarmed militia member shot down in a traffic stop somewhere in Ohio something like 5 years ago? I think it was down near Columbus, but honestly remember very little. Anybody remember anything like that?
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You do not remember correctly. He was not unarmed. He was armed with .45 auto pistol and was properly shot and killed by a State Trooper near Frazeyburg, closer to Newark, Ohio than Columbus. He was a "Chaplain" for the Ohio Unorganized Militia. He was also formerly a police officer with the Canton, Ohio Police Department. He was considered by his former coworkers there to be a "nut job". Ask me how I know via email.
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Ya know, I wanted to say Frazeysburg, but I wasn't sure. I used to drive through there all the time when I went to OSU. From what you say, it sounds like this guy drew first? At the time, I remember thinking that the shooting sounded fishy, but I don't have anything at all to back that up. What was the guy's name? I gather this is different from the Kehoe incident mentioned above?
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His name was Michael Hill. He was stopped by OSP for not having a license plate on his car. Instead he had a home made Ohio Militia Chaplain plate. The controversy came about because the passengers (fellow "militia" members) said that while he was indeed armed, he never drew the weapon. Yes, this incident was different and unrelated to the Kehoe incident.
Link Posted: 8/19/2002 6:56:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2002 7:35:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: This is too weird. Militia members would do no such thing. I guess even sick phucks like this can spell the word "militia." Officers, please watch your back and hunt these sick bastards down, assuming there is some form of conspiracy.
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I too, have met some so-called militia members here in the SPRK. If there are real organized militias. They must be somewhere else than here in Kali. The ones I have met, are posers, and nothing more. they talk big, egging each other into some action or another. There will be the occasional incident like the Police Officers unfortunate encounter. Most, militia people though, are big blow hards. Push them back, just a little, and they fade away. These blow hards think they are going to run to the mountains and hold the Police, and Army off at the pass. Not now, not ever. There are militia members, [b]with a sincere and cogent message. These are the ones that are hard to argue with.[/b] It is the big blow hards that are causing the problems, and are getting all of the media [b]INK[/b] and [b]AIR TIME[/b].
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 9:56:25 AM EDT
Perhaps I am confused.... I thought "The Militia" of the United States of America was comprised of the "organized"... state guard, and the "unorganized", which is every able bodied male citizen between a certain age range... I though the second amendment to the Constitution existed to ensure this "disorganized" militia would always be a viable protector of "The People". Now I realize this idea is a bit old, but I like it! I say we keep it this way. Any dumb arse group of bald headed, religious nuts that wants to call themselves something should refrain from using such a good and noble term as "militia" because they are not the "militia", They are a rabble, a cluster of freaks. If just being a real American is not good enough for ya', LEAVE. The police exist to protect and serve "the people"... if they fail to do that, it is "the people's" responsibility to fix the problem through established, peaceful means. Shooting a police officer while he is performing his duty of protecting and serving the public that empower him should result is swift and overwhelming APATHY directed toward the criminal. If you don't like it, I suggest you move to one of many other countries where religious fanatics and nut jobs are welcome and anarchy rules. Nothing is perfect, but the USA, my country, comes closest.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 11:05:48 AM EDT
An officer dead, and the perp dead too. Ok after everyone is done with the rant, why did the Officer die, bad tactics, he ran up to the car after it had stopped, he saw a firearm, instead of standing ground and preparing for a armed confrontation, he chose retreat, sometimes this is good, sometimes not, this time the officer was shot in the buttocks, bullet traveled up hitting major organs and he was killed, let us learn from his mistake, don't get your training from "COPS" on television, those guys are show boating, get it from training officers and real life experiences. Very seldom will an Officer die on duty if he follows proper tactics, this one did, may he rest in peace, and no others to follow, remember, tactics, tactics tactics, LE is a job where a mistake can get you killed. The bullet resistant vest gives you a chance it does not make you invulnerable, a hit to the pelvic region, thigh, head, or shoulder can be fatal. This is a hard way to learn a lesson, but lets learn it anyway, to prevent others from following. By the way I don't think anyone has proved the perp was Militia, just that he was into the constitution in a big way.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 11:30:12 AM EDT
It could have easily been some ex con or wanted person and not a milita..... Media is just .... well ya know.... taking advantage of the situation.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 11:31:29 AM EDT
Bountyhunter, where did you get your details regarding the specifics of the shooting? What Taylors actions/tactics were? What Mathews actions were? What position Taylor was in when he was shot? If he approached the vehicle, how he approached it? Do you know someone directly involved in the investigation? Are there witnesses to exactly what happened? The local media is reporting that The Massillon P.D. is saying that Taylor was alone in the lot with Mathews when the shooting started and when the other officers arrived Mathews was already shooting. They are also reporting that Taylor was shot in the lower back as he was diving from the passenger side of his vehicle. Check out the story in the Repository go to the archives for August 21st [url]www.cantonrep.com[/url] Who has the straight story on this? Again, where did you get your information?
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 12:22:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2002 12:23:17 PM EDT by jschacker]
Yea the line "...the gun can be purchased at gunshows and gunshops..." caught my attention too. He should have said the gun can be legally purchased at gunshows and gunshops. If the gun was illegally bought then he got it from a criminal not a gunshow or gunshop.
Link Posted: 8/22/2002 7:19:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2002 7:45:13 PM EDT by bountyhunter]
Sukebe, I got all my information from the Akron Beacon Journal, I did not review any police reports, that is true. I don't think they will be out for quite some time as they are under review, and will be for some time as is the case in these things. It was a observation from the press reports that I did read, now please don't go off on me, as when a fellow officer dies the emotions do run hot, with me too, I am not saying this officer did anything wrong, all I am saying is, can we learn something from it, to prevent another one from going down, and if this is wrong ok, I mean no disrespect to any department, or officer, ok. Lets just learn from it and not allow it to happen again. I do want to add one thing so it is not misrepresented here, I am in no way going to stand up for the guy who did this, other than to say I saw no article say he was a militia member, he was a constitution advocate as far as the media reports, the letter left at the scene was from, who knows, saying something about the kitchen militia, who knows who left that. Do you? Anyway you asked so I responded. If you know more please enlighten me/us. I would like to know how a person is shot in the buttocks and the bullet travels up into the organs causing blood loss and death(as reported by the Akron Beacon Journal), and if no one else was around how did the perp get shot dead at the scene, it was reported that the State Highway Patrol was on scene also.????Respectfully Submitted - bountyhunter
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 4:40:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: An officer dead, and the perp dead too. Ok after everyone is done with the rant, why did the Officer die, bad tactics, he ran up to the car after it had stopped, he saw a firearm, instead of standing ground and preparing for a armed confrontation, he chose retreat, sometimes this is good, sometimes not, this time the officer was shot in the buttocks, bullet traveled up hitting major organs and he was killed, let us learn from his mistake, don't get your training from "COPS" on television, those guys are show boating, get it from training officers and real life experiences. Very seldom will an Officer die on duty if he follows proper tactics, this one did, may he rest in peace, and no others to follow, remember, tactics, tactics tactics, LE is a job where a mistake can get you killed. The bullet resistant vest gives you a chance it does not make you invulnerable, a hit to the pelvic region, thigh, head, or shoulder can be fatal. This is a hard way to learn a lesson, but lets learn it anyway, to prevent others from following. By the way I don't think anyone has proved the perp was Militia, just that he was into the constitution in a big way.
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You make a lot of assumptions considering that your information about what took place comes from the media. There is no way that you can judge Taylors tactics or actions with the amount of "information" that you have available to you. Mark Weldon (The chief of the Massillon P.D.) was quoted as saying Mathews was already shooting when the other officers arrived. There is often a first car out when a pursuit ends with cars arriving at the scene seconds later and for several minutes after. Is that inconceivable? Yes, the identity of the person who left the letter at the scene is known. The letter was signed with an alias. We know who that person is. The person has been a known tin foil hat type for many years. Long before it was fashionable. No direct militia link but loosely associated. Tin foil hats, "constitutionalists", "free men", "militias", "conspiracy theorists", they all subscribe to the same basic philosophy. That is that government is bad and wants to make us all slaves. The "militia" connection is not quite irrelevant since they all identify with each other. We have been receiving alerts and threats since the murder of Eric Taylor.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:09:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 5:39:12 AM EDT by bountyhunter]
"No direct link, but loosely associated" now if I have ever known anyone who was Militia that would apply to me too I guess, or if I am against a particuliar Government policy, again, I guess I would be heaped in with that group? You know why there is a problem with most Police and citizens, it is because, it is a us against them thing, and I think I am getting a taste of it here. And if your getting threats, big deal, we all know how many mentals there are out there, is it "surprising" that they are making noise ? And in closing yes, as you said I made assumptions, or as a police detective might call it deductions from what I read in the newspaper as most have, and you are being ruled by your emotions on this discussion, and I understand why so I will quit here, and wish you the best.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 7:56:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 8:06:49 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: "No direct link, but loosely associated" now if I have ever known anyone who was Militia that would apply to me too I guess, or if I am against a particuliar Government policy, again, I guess I would be heaped in with that group?
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The fact is I know the person who wrote the letter. I know what the persons associations are. I know where the person lives, what the person drives, who this person lives with and how this person make a living. Do you? As usual you are full of shit.
You know why there is a problem with most Police and citizens, it is because, it is a us against them thing, and I think I am getting a taste of it here.
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People don't have a problem with "most" cops. Any survey of a random sampleing of U.S. citizens will tell you that. You're getting a taste of something alright. Maybe it's your own shit. You are that full of it.
And if your getting threats, big deal, we all know how many mentals there are out there, is it "surprising" that they are making noise ?
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This coming from a police trainer who claims to know what tactics a police officer should use? One that can tell by media reports exactly what happend when even the officers on the scene aren't exactly sure? You should know that in our profession that threats and alerts must be taken seriously. Not taking those types of things serously is one of the things that has made us vulnerable to terrorist attacks. That sounds like pretty bad tactics to me. Again, the shit flows from you like a mighty river.
And in closing yes, as you said I made assumptions, or as a police detective might call it deductions from what I read in the newspaper as most have,
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Most lay people maybe. But an experienced police officer knows that the media rarely gets the story nowhere close to 100% correct. You claim to be some kind of police trainer so you use this event to boost your own ego and point out all the tactical errors that Taylor committed when in fact you have no clue as to exactly what transpired. You see, by claiming that you a a trainor of police some people will take what you say as an expert opinion. Under srcutiny of people who know how to tell the difference it is clear you are far from an expert in the field. You are completely full of shit.
and you are being ruled by your emotions on this discussion, and I understand why so I will quit here, and wish you the best.
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If you read through any of my previous posts in this thread, you will see that there is nothing emotional about them. I don't work for the Massillon P.D. I didn't know Eric Taylor and I've been around too long to get worked up over what the papers say or what some nut case thinks. I do have a problem with ex cops who are bull shit artists. Especially bad bull shit artists. BTW did I mention that you are full of shit?
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 2:12:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 3:03:25 PM EDT by bountyhunter]
Sukebe, I have a problem with punks and badges, I have a problem with boneheads and a badge who think they are better than the rest of the population, I have a problem with arrogant, know it all babywipes, but enough of my problems, I know you have enough of your own, and I don't care where you work, or what you do, you are not special, get used to it. You state in your above post you know things, I believe you, you seem like a know it all. EDIT TO ADD this is my last reply to you, if you want to talk more may I suggest a Psychiatrist.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 4:36:10 PM EDT
Like I said, bull shit artist.
Link Posted: 8/23/2002 5:43:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2002 6:05:05 PM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 8/27/2002 8:11:53 PM EDT
We can argue all day about tactics, motives, and militias..What is for certain though, is the fact that a young officer is dead, and he leaves behind a widow and young children. Lets not lose our focus. PS. I don't care who knows who, where they live etc, Matthews and Shlarp are both pieces of shit.....
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 3:15:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 3:20:22 PM EDT by bountyhunter]
That is precisely why I did not engage in an argument with that burn out, it just seemed disrespectful to do it on this thread. My prayers are with the dead officer and his family.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 7:12:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 7:14:11 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: An officer dead, and the perp dead too. Ok after everyone is done with the rant, why did the Officer die, bad tactics, he ran up to the car after it had stopped, he saw a firearm, instead of standing ground and preparing for a armed confrontation, he chose retreat, sometimes this is good, sometimes not, this time the officer was shot in the buttocks, bullet traveled up hitting major organs and he was killed, let us learn from his mistake, don't get your training from "COPS" on television, those guys are show boating, get it from training officers and real life experiences. Very seldom will an Officer die on duty if he follows proper tactics, this one did, may he rest in peace,
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So critisizing Taylors tactics is your idea of showing him respect? Of course it is. After all, you were there right? No? You must be involved in the investigation? No? Well then you have reviewed the evidence? Not even that huh? Oh wait, I remember you read about it in the papers. That explains how you know so much about all the fatal errors made by Taylor. You are completely full of shit.
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 10:10:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 10:13:25 PM EDT by medcop]
Okay guys....take it a little easy don't let this turn into a pissing match. Please debate it, but if you are going to insult each other take it off the boards and into IM or email. I am not going to lock or edit this thread as this is an important topic. Just keep it clean and level headed.
4) No pissing matches. Its fine to disagree, but once a thread has run its course, and degenerated into little more than an insult fest, it will be locked. 7) No personal attacks towards ANYONE. If you have a problem with someone, then take it offline with them. If it's with a member of the staff or a moderator, then contact someone from the Senior Staff. Attacking a person, ANY PERSON, in a non-joking manner (clearly visible as a joke) will not be tolerated. This includes provoking someone into an attack.
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Thanks medcop
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