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Posted: 7/9/2002 6:18:56 PM EDT
OK, I did it. I am now a reserve deputy for the county in which I live. This is something that I have dabbled with for some time, but finally agreed to become one at the sheriff's request. My main duties will probably be backing up other officers when things get a little hairy or appear they may do so....or to help out in times when manpower is short and such. That said, I am looking for the best quality duty pistol I can find. Reliability is first and foremost my priority. I want something that I can have great faith in to work if I should ever need it. Accuracy is the next requirement. I have come up with a list of guns and ammunition that seem to fit my own requirements and I will list them and what I like about them below: Ruger P-89 9mm with Winchester Ranger ammo in either 127 gr +p+ or 147 gr loads. I have seen these pistols perform time after time without fail and I have a great amount of trust in them. The triggers aren't great but that's my only complaint with this gun. Ruger P-90 .45 ACP with Black Hills 230 gr JHP. Very reliable and accurate. Again, the triggers aren't perfect but the other qualities make up for this as well as the good value they provide. Glock 22 .40 S&W with Winchester Silver Tip JHP's. This is the pistol that most of the deputies here carry. I have never owned a Glock and therefore they have yet to instill in me the kind of confidence I feel with my Ruger. Is the Glock as reliable as everyone claims and would one of these serve me any better than a Ruger? Sig-Sauer P226/P229 .40 S&W with either Winchester Ranger or Silvertips. I love the triggers on these pistols and the outstanding accuracy. As far as I can tell these are completely reliable but some folks on this site have suggested that they are prone to breaking parts. Is this true or are these just Sig haters? LOL. And finally I have also included the Smith and Wesson Model 66 and 686 in my list of possibles with Federal 125 gr JHP's. I realize that these are revolvers with only 6 shots and are generally slower to fire than autos...but are more dependable and that's worthy of consideration I suppose. So which of these pistols would you choose if it were up to you? Or any different pistol that is double action that I might not have listed for that matter. I don't care about being fancy or pretty or expensive...just so long as it is as dependable as can be reasonably expected of any firearm. Thanks for your time and help.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 6:22:47 PM EDT
We carry the 226 in .357sig. I like the sig a lot but we transitioned from the 220 and I would prefer to still have the .45. My only complaint with the Rugers is the blocky shape and large size. They don't fit my hands well. If they work for you they are considerably cheaper than the Sig.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 8:47:18 PM EDT
Can't go wrong with the Glock. I'm kind of partial to the .357sig's higher velocity, but the .40 has the heavy bullet thing going for it. The .357 also has the necked case, which is supported even in the 6 o'clock position. Another Glock advantage: Buy whatever fullsize service pistol you want, then buy a backup of the same caliber. The fullsize mags will fit in the smaller Glock. This way if your primary fails you aren't limited to the 10 or so rounds in a baby Glock. Yes, Glocks are as reliable as you've heard about.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 8:54:59 PM EDT
I'm sure this will turn into a SIG over Glock/Glock over Sig pi$$ing match eventually, but... I personally prefer the Glock because I have never had any problems with mine, and it fits my hands better than the SIGs. That said - whichever gun (of those you listed) you can shoot the best with under stress is the one you should carry.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 9:50:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: ... I am looking for the best quality duty pistol I can find. ...
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By your own definition, you’re looking for a Sig – the P226 or P229 in .40 S&W is just about perfect. Granted, Sig’s are a bit heavier than Glocks, which is more of an off-duty issue. About the only part they break is the trigger return spring, which is so cheap you can replace it every few years and avoid even this remote possibility. That being said, Glocks are great too. The ability to have a big Glock for work and a small, but otherwise almost identical, Glock for off-duty is something to consider. You might also want to look at the Walther P-99. However, it’s not quite proven itself yet. Consider only ones with German proof marks – avoid anything that Smith and Wesson has touched. Getting leather for a P-99 might be a bit difficult. IMHO – forget the 9MM, the Ruger, and the wheelgun.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:04:47 AM EDT
Glock or SIG. I carried a Glock for years, and still carry one as a back-up. No complaints, and they are a bit cheaper. I now carry an issued SIG P229. Carried it for about 3 years, have fired about 4K rounds through it, and no malfunctions. I have no complaints there, either. The design on the 229 is a bit more updated than the 226. I don't like the Rugers for asthetic reasons (they just look ugly to me).
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:46:19 AM EDT
If your department let's you carry [url=http://www.wilsoncombat.com/pistols/tactical_elite.asp]the best[/url], and you are willing to pay for [url=http://www.wilsoncombat.com/pistols/tactical_elite.asp]the best[/url], then I would have to recommend that you settle for nothing less than [url=http://www.wilsoncombat.com/pistols/tactical_elite.asp]the best[/url]. Adam
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 7:56:32 AM EDT
My duty pistol is a HK USP, I carry a Walther P-99 off duty...the Walther fits in my Uncle Mike's Level III duty holster for the HK...no problems with retention or draw...
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 11:17:55 AM EDT
If you can, shoot each one before you buy. If you can't, handle each one and see which feels better to you. These are like wives, the fit and feel are critical. I was an investigator, and found the Rugers too big for what they did. I ended my time with a SIG 220, it would even feed empty cases. Train with whatever you choose... Perfect practice makes perfect results!
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 4:59:46 PM EDT
If you are used to the conventional DA/SA type pistol, you will be more comfortable with the Sig. That said, with a bit of training, the Glock trigger re-set is easy to master. The Glock is no beauty queen, but it works. It is durable and reliable. I used to carry a P226 for years, then in 94 we went to the Glock 22. I am an armorer on both the Sig and the Glock. The Sig is a beautiful pistol. It is elegant, and fit's my hand like the pistol was designed just for me. That said, I'll take my clunky, ugly Glock 22 any day. With my Glock in my Safariland 070 (SSIII) holster with 180gr Winchester Ranger SXT, I am very confident that my pistol will work. I am confident that my ammo is effective. I am confident that as long as I do my part, I will prevail with this combination. You need to figure out what works best for you, not me or other members of the board. Confidence in your pistol/holster/ammo/self will carry you a lot further than the sometimes self-serving opinions of others.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 5:07:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 5:20:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Glock31: Can't go wrong with the Glock. I'm kind of partial to the .357sig's higher velocity, but the .40 has the heavy bullet thing going for it. The .357 also has the necked case, which is supported even in the 6 o'clock position. Another Glock advantage: Buy whatever fullsize service pistol you want, then buy a backup of the same caliber. The fullsize mags will fit in the smaller Glock. This way if your primary fails you aren't limited to the 10 or so rounds in a baby Glock. Yes, Glocks are as reliable as you've heard about.
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Well said
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 7:56:24 PM EDT
OK everyone, thanks a bunch for the feedback. Everyone was straight forward with their recommendations as well as not just recommending whatever you carry or have. I appreciate that. I realize that probably all of the guns I mentioned are good weapons and would serve me well. I am just meticulous with every detail of a weapon's functionality and detail. Your responses have pretty much made me narrow my choices to Sig Sauer P226 or Glock 22. I have handled and fired both pistols and both functioned flawlessly. I found the Sig more accurate, it fit my hands better and I just liked the feel and balance. It also had a very smooth trigger pull, even though that first shot requires a rather lengthy pull and what felt like at least 10 lbs of pressure. The Glock was lighter and seemed to be a bit easier to get off a quick first shot. Although I shot better groups with the Sig, the Glock was no slouch either in terms of accuracy. I will think it over carefully and buy the one I think better fits me. Right now I am leaning more toward the Sig, but the Glock is a close second. Someone interestingly mentioned the Smith and Wesson 3rd generation autos. That's what I now use as my carry gun. It is a 5906 9mm. While the gun has so far been reliable, I just can't get comfortable with the trigger. The thing has so much creep, take-up and overtravel, it is very hard for me to get off an accurate first shot with it. Because I just don't like the trigger, I want to replace it with something I feel more comfortable with as soon as possible. The Smith and Wesson autos have also been the target of all sorts of verbal abuse on this board in regard to reliability. That doesn't make me feel any more comfortable either. Hehe. Plus, I am not that big of a fan of the 9mm round anyway and would prefer the .40 or .45 given I have a choice. The state troopers in my state carry the Smith and Wesson 1076 10mm and it has evidently faired well...but these have long since been out of production and I worry that parts would be hard to find if I ever needed them. I have also looked at the various 1911's out there and although in the right hands these should be very good weapons, I must admit that I just do not like single action pistols. I have always used double actions of some sort and as long as the triggers are good, I just prefer to stay with them. I also don't like a manual safety to have to fiddle with when in a stressful situation. Again, nothing wrong with 1911's, but they just aren't for me. Besides, the sheriff isn't very fond of cocked and locked pistols being carried around in public. He doesn't think it is unsafe, but rather it stirs up the public seeing those hammers back. Go figure. Anyway, thanks again for all of the opinions so far. It has been helpful. I will probably soon be asking questions about duty rigs and holsters, etc, because this isn't my area of expertise either! LOL. With my mode of dress (mostly working nights and will dress in BDU's) I have decided to go with either the Bianchi Accumold or Uncle Mike's nylon gear and Smith and Wesson tactical boots. But I will save all of this for another day and another thread. Thank you much. ---Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 5:13:45 AM EDT
Oh, hey man...save your receipts!!! Your out of pockect expenses are tax deductable!!! I believe it falls under donations to the Department, check with your tax folks.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 5:44:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 10:13:17 AM EDT
You want to see spittle fly, mention "Ruger" and "duty weapon" in front of our armorer. That said, don't just concentrate on the price or just the weapon. It's a system. Get a GOOD retention holster on a quality duty belt, a good mag pouch and spare mags (f you routinely carry 3 mags you should have at least 4 more.) You can lose mags when things get rough. Nothing like continuing the rest of a shift with 2/3rds less ammo than you started with. Get a cleaning kit that fits the weapon, and keep it in your patrol bag.(I've had to pressure wash the Beretta and duty belt in a coin op car wash before) Look into night sights. Also look at your carry ammo. Are you restricted by dept policy to a particular brand? Do you have a choice? Are you allowed a backup weapon? BTW: nothing wrong with 9mm or revolvers. Carried a S@W mod 66 until I bought a Beretta 92 in 1992. Never had a lick of trouble with them despite the fact I shoot a LOT. Still use the 66 as a hunting sidearm, and off-duty on trips to the coast. Wouldn't have any problems going back to it for patrol.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 8:54:41 PM EDT
First off Ruger Autos suck. I carried a Glock 22 for several years and liked it. One day A buddy let me shoot his Sig P229...I sold my glock a week later and that is what I am still packing. It is perfect for on/off duty. Yes it is heavier that the glock, but I don't really mind. I like both weapons, but the Sigs are better guns in my opinion.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 12:56:44 AM EDT
For an off duty gun at a good price, you can get the Glock Individual Officer Purchase program deal for officers. Pricing starts in low $400 and pushes into low 5's for .45's. Prices depend on LEO dealer. Sincerely, Mark Buda Triple Break Products buda@TripleBreakProducts.com http://www.TripleBreakProducts.com (603) 424-0923 FAX: (603) 429-0479
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:24:31 AM EDT
Again, thanks for all of the helpful tips and replies. I haven't decided yet on a back-up. Glad you brought that up as well because I hadn't thought very much about a back-up. I guess the Glock 27, Walther PPK, Smith and Wesson and Taurus 2" .38 revolvers and perhaps the Sig Sauer P230 or P232 would all make excellent back-up's. My mode of dress (BDU pants bloused into boots) will probably take away the ankle holster method of carrying a back-up. Probably my only other option is to carry one on my body armor. That means something as small and flat as possible, yet with the largest caliber possible given the small size will probably be what I choose. I am relatively new to all of this and I am not sure about the individual officer purchases. Again, I am only a reserve (special) deputy. I am sworn by the county but must work with and under the supervision of another officer. I am not paid for performing my duties. That said, I am not sure yet if I can lawfully use and possess hi-cap mags and buy my own weapons that are intended for commissioned officers. I assume that I too can use these items in the course of my duties, but I will double check and make certain of it before proceeding any farther. If I can I will just go ahead and do an individual purchase from an LEO supplier. If not, then I will just get my dealer to order for me with civilian legal post ban mags. Anyone know if LEO weapons apply to all officers or only to paid personnel? Dumb question I know but I figure it would be smarter to ask a dumb question now than to find myself in violation of the law later! LOL.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:58:37 AM EDT
If your hands are big, try a G21 .45. Theres no comparison from the way it shoots compared to the G22. Its so much better. Its as smooth as butter. Obviously you wont be lugging around off duty. I wouldnt buy any .45 that holds less than ten rounds. We had some other agency guys go through our SWAT school carrying 1911's and 220's. They were looking like fools when they went through our tactical courses. They were reloading so often their heads were spinning. I have an M3 light mounted on my G21 and boy do i like it. For 9mm I love the Sig 226. As for companys, I stick with Glock, Sig, and H&K.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 5:33:54 PM EDT
I'm one of my departments range officers and can say without hesitation to take the Ruger pistols off of your shopping list. No offense to people who love them, I happen to think they're fairly accurate, when they function properly. At the last instructor course I attended every single Ruger brought screwed up on every course of fire. It's a good gun if your worried about economy and your not a cop. How much is your life worth again? Giving someone recomendations on firearms sight unseen is bad news. You have to choose a weapon that is easy for you to handle and control. Of the guns on your list the Sig and the Glock are good bets. They have great quality and are excelent combat weapons. Get with your departments range officer or talk with one of the gun guys on the department, everyone knows who they are. Try and get with somebody who already carrys one of the guns your considering and try to go shoot with them to try it out. Regardless of the capacity issue (which is important when you actually start shooting)you need to be able to score hits. Some people are just revolver people and shoot them faster and more accurately than a pistol. Besides my Glock 21, I used a SW625 at the instructor school for the revolver portion. It's based off of the 629 frame and chambered for .45ACP. It loads with moon clips and I was reloading faster than some of the guys using there autos during an open combat course. Anyone who hasn't reloaded a revolver that uses moon clips hasn't seen a fast reload yet. This topic is long enough without discussing ammo. I'll end it by saying that it's suggestive and your opinion is the most important one (taking into consideration your departments restrictions and policies of course) [;)]
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 10:57:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmoth: I'm one of my departments range officers and can say without hesitation to take the Ruger pistols off of your shopping list. No offense to people who love them, I happen to think they're fairly accurate, when they function properly. At the last instructor course I attended every single Ruger brought screwed up on every course of fire. It's a good gun if your worried about economy and your not a cop. How much is your life worth again? Giving someone recomendations on firearms sight unseen is bad news. You have to choose a weapon that is easy for you to handle and control. Of the guns on your list the Sig and the Glock are good bets. They have great quality and are excelent combat weapons. Get with your departments range officer or talk with one of the gun guys on the department, everyone knows who they are. Try and get with somebody who already carrys one of the guns your considering and try to go shoot with them to try it out. Regardless of the capacity issue (which is important when you actually start shooting)you need to be able to score hits. Some people are just revolver people and shoot them faster and more accurately than a pistol. Besides my Glock 21, I used a SW625 at the instructor school for the revolver portion. It's based off of the 629 frame and chambered for .45ACP. It loads with moon clips and I was reloading faster than some of the guys using there autos during an open combat course. Anyone who hasn't reloaded a revolver that uses moon clips hasn't seen a fast reload yet. This topic is long enough without discussing ammo. I'll end it by saying that it's suggestive and your opinion is the most important one (taking into consideration your departments restrictions and policies of course) [;)]
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Got to go with this guys views, we had guys with Ruger Auto's and if they were not good shots could not qualify, they work, but are less accurate than any other auto I've ever seen a student show up with. Ruger Auto's in my opinion are not a good duty guns, for police duty. They take a licking and keep on ticking, but for duty use would go with a Sig or Glock, preference Glock, cal 40 S&W.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 7:23:22 PM EDT
I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONCIDER THE HK USP IN .45 I HAVE CARRIED THIS WEAPON FOR YEARS AND BEING PRIOR SPECIAL FORCES I HAVE PUT IT THROUGH MORE ABUSE WITH OUT IT EVEN CHOKING HIGHLY RELIABLE AND ACURATE IVE FIRED THOUSANDS OF ROUND'S THROUGH MY MARINE CORPS ISSUED PISTOL AND LIKED IT SO MUCH FOR IT'S RELIABILITY AND ACCURACY THAT I BOUGHT ONE FOR MY CARRY GUN FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT BY THE WAY IT IS ALSO THE SAME WEAPON I USE FOR DUTY WITH SWAT. "REMEMBER IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES UNTIL YOU HAVE ROUND'S COMING UP RANGE"
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 7:50:27 PM EDT
Forget the 226. It's too big to carry off duty. Get the Sig 229 as the duty gun and get a Glock 27 for your backup. Whatever you get take care of it as if your life depends upon it (because it does). Be sure to take your duty gun out of the holster after each shift and wipe it off. I've seen plenty of guns pried out of a level III holster after getting wet and allowing to dry and get rusty. Remember most level III holsters are synthetic and do not breathe like leather. You'd be surprised how much crud makes its way into your ankle holster. Get a good cleaning kit and keep in in your locker. Mids are great for maintenance....
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 7:55:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LgAnimalVet:
Originally Posted By Glock31: Can't go wrong with the Glock. I'm kind of partial to the .357sig's higher velocity, but the .40 has the heavy bullet thing going for it. The .357 also has the necked case, which is supported even in the 6 o'clock position. Another Glock advantage: Buy whatever fullsize service pistol you want, then buy a backup of the same caliber. The fullsize mags will fit in the smaller Glock. This way if your primary fails you aren't limited to the 10 or so rounds in a baby Glock. Yes, Glocks are as reliable as you've heard about.
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Well said
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Glocks Kick Ass[^]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:10:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 8:11:58 PM EDT by Adam_White]
Originally Posted By Ohaiclan: I wouldnt buy any .45 that holds less than ten rounds. We had some other agency guys go through our SWAT school carrying 1911's and 220's. They were looking like fools when they went through our tactical courses. They were reloading so often their heads were spinning.
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Interesting logic - some "tactical" course requires outrageous firepower so this should determine what you carry in the real world? If I designed acourse of fire requiring 300 meter engagements would you decide a pistol is worthless and carry only a rifle? Unfortunately, too many of these "tactical" courses have a bias towards high capacity despite their claims otherwise, Statistics in in the real world say otherwise. Two words: Shot placement. Many "tactical" courses inadvertently reflect the inherent bias of their designers. In much the same way as the rules of the "Ultimate Fighting Championship" obviously favor grappling artists (no threat of second attacker, smooth padded surface), while intentions may have been to recreate "reality" it is often not the case. And c'mon, I was hoping for at least one comment on the Wilson I linked to - I personally couldn't imagine carrying it - it would be so pretty I'd be afraid it might get scratched[:)]. Adam (I'm not a cop, but a play one more often then I'd like to)
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:39:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 8:41:27 PM EDT by sniper1az]
Do the Sig .If not the Sig , try a H&K . You didn't mention what calibers you could use. Get the biggest one you can handle . What ever you get, make sure it fits your hand and learn to use it well ! Good luck and congrats ! Thank you for your service to the people of your county .
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