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Posted: 7/6/2002 7:20:22 PM EDT
I am considering a DPMS PCAR with the tri-burst option for on-duty purposes. my question is this: has anyone heard anything, good or bad, about this weapon? currently i am carrying my personal SP1 and decided that i wanted to keep it in its pristine condition rather than let it ride around with me. i am hoping to hear from someone that has/have/are carrying the PCAR and can tell me a little about its performance. thanks to any reply.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 9:18:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:05:03 AM EDT
i guess i couldn't have had a better person reply. first, it will replace the colt that i currently carry for aforementioned reason. second, it'll be for patrol use. and yes, i am in minnesota, however, not near the metro. two of my partners went to the dpms factory for a tour last february, unfortunately, i was not able to attend. i am very interested in this weapon and have considered a couple other brands, but i support my state suppliers as much as i can, not to mention that the quality and reputation that dpms carries. i do travel to the metro on an average basis for transports and visits (originally from st. paul), so a drive to becker wouldn't bother me to research this weapon.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:13:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2002 12:14:03 AM EDT by Dave_G]
b910, Unless your agency is purchasing the rifle, you can't have a tri-burst DMPS PCAR. It's a new machine gun and an individual officer cannot purchase one.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 12:56:06 AM EDT
yup, fully aware of that my friend. they gave me the go-ahead to check into this and decide what we want as a department. that is why i posted the original question.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 9:39:15 AM EDT
In that case, you may want to go for a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel. An AR15/M16 with an 11.5 inch barrel is a short range weapon.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 5:24:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 5:26:05 PM EDT by jleable]
I know i'm no expert in law enforcement or anything but I just thought I would let you know that I have A DPMS panther classic 16 which should be very similer to the PCAR you want to get (granted mine is semi-auto) but it's a great gun and I have had Zero malfunctions with it so I say get the PCAR.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 5:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2002 5:06:56 AM EDT by dpcop]
My personal duty rifle is a post-ban DPMS carbine. I've been very happy with it, and also with their customer service. I had a minor problem with my rifle when first delivered, but it was quickly and efficently taken care of. (and I'd expect even better service if you're buying several![;)]) dp[0J]
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:06:35 PM EDT
dpcop: what type of problem did you have?
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 3:15:14 PM EDT
dave_g: just out of curiousity, would this short of barrel be not good for general duty? we'd like to use them for high-risk and warrant entry service also. kind of an all-around weapon if you know what i mean. i could reasonably predict that we wouldn't be using these for long-range service anyway, but the stray skunk or rabid dog could be a possible shot. we are considering re-gathering our SERT together again and we would be on-call at anytime because we are also road deputies. that is why we are considering this particular gun. what do you think? thanks for all the responses! stay safe.
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 6:36:28 PM EDT
b910, The .233/5.56mm round is a marginal performer against two-legged dangerous gameout of just about any AR15/M16. Out of an 11.5 inch barrel, it tends to suck wind. Since you're looking at a 16 inch tube with the 5.5 inch suppressor, why not go with a full 16 inch barrel and the extended reasonably effective range/velocity it will yield. If you're looking at using it for entry work, stepping down to a 14.5 inch barrel is a pretty good compromise. You might also want to look at [url=http://www.bushmaster.com/le/weapons/bushmaster_xm15_e2s_m4a2_carbine.htm]Bushmaster LEO M4 Carbine with a 14.5 in barrel[/url], or one of the [url=http://www.colt.com/colt/html/a2f22_m4carbine3.html]Colt R0977 M4 Carbines[/url]. Either would be better weapons than the DPMS products. (The red underlined phrases are links!)
Link Posted: 7/10/2002 10:33:00 PM EDT
"Out of an 11.5 inch barrel, it tends to suck wind." - what do you mean by that? i am presuming that you mean that long-range accuracy is compromised, yes? and, bear with me here please, you said that i was looking at a 16" tube with the 5.5" supressor. i thought that the PCAR had an 11.5" bbl with a 5.5" supressor? another reason we are considering the PCAR is because of the supressor on it. we do go to an occasional stray animal call and we prefer not to have a rifle signature in town or near town, if you know what i mean. i am not totally sold on the DPMS, but when i look at the other brands, it seems that they are all pretty much the same, just different price tags. hence my original question. also, when you refer to "extended reasonably effective range/velocity it will yield," what do you mean in numbers? with my SP1, i am good out to 250 yards easily, that is a given for that weapon; however, i can count the times i have shot my SP1 at that distance, on-duty, on one finger. that is why we were considering shorter barrels (aforementioned reasons), but still want a mid-range weapon to use as well. i just don't want to compromise our objective with the PCAR either. so, realistically, a range greater than, say, 100-150 yards, would very rarely occur for us. if it did, we'd use the .308 anyway. thanks again for the discussion.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 12:22:22 AM EDT
b910, You develop lower velocities from the 11.5 inch barrel. This leads to poor terminal bullet performance, especially if you're using rounds that require the bullet to fragment to be effective. The overall barrel length, with the flash suppressor, is 16 inches. The flash suppressor only suppresses some muzzle flash. For sound suppression, you need a sound suppressor (silencer). Extending the effective range of an AR15/M16 is a function of velocity and bullet design. Properly built with the proper ammunition, an AR15 can reach out to 600 yards, but it's effectiveness in relation to it's ability bring about relatively quick incapacitation of a bad guy is around 200 yards for your 20 inch tube. You want your rifle to be effective out to about 100 to 125 yards. You have a much better chance to achieve that with a 14.5 to 16 inch barrel and the higher velocities they allow. I agree on the use of the .308, preferably with optics, over 100 yards.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 12:53:28 AM EDT
I wish my Dept.(NYPD) would allow us such a choice. I'd be happy with any of the above choices.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 1:22:08 AM EDT
dave_g: so in reality, the longer barrel m4 would be the better choice? aside from my mistake in assuming that the "supressor" was a silencer type (my bad, thought it reduced sound as well because of the length), then the 5.5" supressor is no different than the one on the m4? what is the reason for the length then? if it is a l.e. only model, then why bother with such a long supressor to make it 16" o.a.l.? and as far as the range, yes, i totally agree with the 100-125 yard theory. i can tell you this, i have been on a couple calls that involved a farmer that was pissed that his land was being forfeited. his driveway was about 1/4 mile long and aside from the scoped .308, an ar wouldn't have mattered. not to say that it couldn't be done, i am a fair shot myself, but the knockdown power, i believe, wouldn't have been there. i will take your advice and re-consider the m4 option now. also, i hope that i don't open a can of worms here, but what ammo would be good for duty use then with the PCAR and/or the m4? thanks a million for shedding light on this for me. it has been very educating.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 9:55:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2002 9:59:02 AM EDT by Dave_G]
b910, Why DPMS adds a 5.5 inch flash suppressor to an 11.5 inch LEO barrel is a mystery to me. If you're going to make the barrel 16 inches long, why not make it all barrel and generate higher velocities? A Colt or Bushmaster 14.5 or 16 inch M4 or HBAR (heavy barrel) would be a good choice for a patrol rifle. On the 14.5 inch M4 (Colt or Bushmaster), you could add a quick-detachable sound suppressor like the [url=http://www.gem-tech.com/m4-96d.html]Gemtech M4-96D[/url] (<= Link!) using Gemtech's Bi-lock Flash Suppressor to reduce the rifle sound signature. They are excellent units by all reports. Just for info, the old XM-177 series had a flash suppressor similar to the one on the DPMS PCAR that actually did suppress sound somewhat. BATF reclassified them as a suppressor when they discovered the sound suppression characteristics. One more thing: sully is with DPMS. It wouldn't hurt to give him a shout.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 7:36:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2002 7:37:14 PM EDT by b910]
dave_g: i have emailed sully last night and we have been exchanging ideas, etc. i want to say thanks to all that posted, this has very informative. **** btw: i am now considering the m4.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 9:30:47 PM EDT
just as a follow-up: i have ordered the m4. thanks dave and sully!
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