I know a lot of LEOs belong to public unions.  Im not trying to bash any cops but im curious how you guys feel about it since most people on this board are very anti union including myself.



I always felt that the public will provide fair pay and benefits for police officers through voting.  It is one of the services we actually feel is necessary and doesn't benefit one man more than another.  After the comment on my political breakdown of LEO threads about how the left is trying to take law enforcement like education it makes me think that's exactly what the unions are all about.  Making you guys feel like the only way you can get by is strong arming the taxpayers by voting democrat.



Thoughts?

We are a small union of 40 people. I am pro-union, because we need a union to stand up to what is a very oppressive and heavy-handed administration.

Where I work we just went FOP.  Really wasn't done because we wanted to.  We felt that it was the only way to get a fair shake.  Vote was 2 to 1.  The pay wasn't the issue until we found out the average firefighter made 7k more than the avg deputy.  What do you say.  Your theory is great but when it all comes down to it the pet projects will be funded prior to anything else including pay.

Unions had their place and time and it has past. now they just drive up prices unnecessarily.

I would disagree

I've seen some places that need them and some that dont.  Where I'm at (the south) you dont see a ton of them.  Where you do, it seems to stem back to a time when either the chief/sheriff or the city council/county commision had screwed them over at some point.  I grew up with parents that were in unions and I can see the advantages and disadvantages to them.  Advantage: Seniority means alot in assignment openings.  Disadvantage: Sometimes the senior guys are the laziest ones out there.

so do the police unions play a part in police policy?  For example cheif decides to set policy as something fucking ridiculous that you guys think might make your job more dangerous the unions fight it? Or is it mostly just pay?



Do your unions opperate on seniority like education or do the BEST officers get better pay?  If pay doesn't work on merit doesn't that kindof upset you guys that do your best to be the best officer?

I like Unions, I think they're a great thing.

What I hate are rules that force workers to join or pay dues, and require the firm work with the Union to collective bargain for wages & benefits that go way beyond what the fair market value of a job would be.

Monopolies aren't good for anyone.  Closed shop unions with collective bargaining power monopolize the supply of labor.

Yes, we'll grieve admin decisions.
Seniority is based on longevity. We'd love to have additional pay based on educational levels, but in the current economy it'll never happen. We are still fighting to get stuff back that we gave up 15 years ago to get 20 year retirement.
Define your term  " best" officers. Would they be the ticket hounds? The ones who give the admins a virtual lap dance? How do you define the term.

I worked In a large midwestern city as a police officer in the 1970s to early 1980s.  We had a FOP lodge #1 for that state.  The city would not recognize us.  The fire dept got more than they could even ask for knowing they would get anything they ask for.  The PD barely received the least we needed to be functional.

The "lodge" membership met with the Teamsters in the early 70s.  After the meeting for lack of better terms, we all felt dirty for even having the meeting!  It was unanimous to not associate with any union!  The major reason was the first action they said "WE" would do after forming/joining was to walk out and go on strike and not concede until in their words "the union" got want it wanted.  Never the words "the membership" but the words "the union" specifically got what it wanted.  In that case it was clear we, the members would be secondary to all "union" goals!

i would define BEST as the officers with the best record. not tickets.   always being on time.  having no legitimate errors or complaints on the field.  Cops with the highest conviction record from arrests and the lowest amounts of "deals" cut by prosecutors due to cop errors.



I don't know really Im not trying to pidgeon hole anyone. Just curious.



 

Deals are, more often than not, not made due to police error. Errors get cases dropped, deals are made because without them the entire criminal justice system would come to a grinding halt. If every single person that was arrested and charged with a crime took it to trial there would not be enough court rooms to handle the case load. Realistically I would say that 10-20 percent of people actually fight the charges against them in superior court. In municipal court it is more like 5 percent. This is a bit off topic, but the majority of people charged with a crime know they did it and take a plea to get the case over with. The "deals" are usually a recommendation on the prosecutors side asking for less than high range sentence. Judges are not bound by a prosecutors recommendation, this is the stuff of movies and TV.

Your going to get complaints.  I've been called racist by a guy who said I only arrested him because he was the same race I am.  You'll get a complaint for serving a felony warrant against someone.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in an active area and not get complaints (Active to me is 1k calls a night city wide).



Conviction record doesn't mean crap either.  That's the prosecutors job.... I've set cases up with a fucking bow and had them dismissed because, in the words  of the prosecutor, there just isn't enough time to charge everyone with the resources they have.  These were felony level charges.... and it's happened more then once.



Walk a mile in the boots before you start saying how we should be judged.



 

im not judging anyone or suggesting you be judged  I was asked how merit pay would work and gave it a shot in the dark. I was just wondering if there WAS a way that you guys earn more pay for merit or if it's just no doable.  Seems it would be pretty hard to do that considering how things pan out with your guys job..
Also i know complaints will happen . I just meant complints that are somehow proven to be legitimate if it knocked you down the totem pole or something. I imagine tons of people complain without basis. Nobody likes to get caught.
 

No offense, but you must not spend much time in court.  The sorry sacoshit DA and ADA's here cut and chop your arrests up regardless of the job just to get easy pleas so they can have a good record on their file.  Seems pretty common place most areas.

Unions have a large amount of tasks they field in my dept, from collective bargaining, to policy, dept discipline, legal representation to helping out injuried officers' and their families.  I think it is a great thing and I think frankly you are being a bit naive in assuming support by voters and them "paying fairly."  Look at how few people vote.  Think about how many people on this site probably vote and then go spend 20 minutes in the GD and HTFs.  And that is just one fraction of the population that most people would think are pro LE.  

I am thankful for my union, gladly joined and am happy there is atleast one organization looking out for me when the chief, dept, COC, city, special interest groups and whoever else try to F#$% me.  Never underestimate the swiftness of the "city" to hang your ass out to dry.

fair enough.  much of that was explained before. Im not trying to bash anyone.  I understand how unions can help out with many things in your guys field.  





As for pay though I have to disagree that taxpayers wont foot the bill for cops.  Every time the state governments need more money the first things they say are we will have to cut police and teachers if you don't give us more money.  Nevermind all the bullshit they could cut. They don't want to lose their pet projects that buy them votes so they pretend you guys are gonna get canned without new taxes or fees or whatever it is they want. They know the people want police and will pay to keep them.  They use you guys like puppets to get tax increases all the time and when they occasiaonaly don't get the tax increase the still manage to cut something else because if they actually did significantly cut you guys they know the people would be pissed about it.  The people never really get an opportunity to vote to help you guys get what you are worth though.  We only get to vote to save you when politicians are threatening your jobs.





I was just trying to feel out what unions are like in LE because I am very much against public unions and Im trying to feel out why police officers go for them..    One ver positive thing i have noticed is when a cop is getting a bad rap by the media on something  the unions tend to spend some extra time clearing the air for the officer and defending him rather than just letting the media run with bullshit..  





 

Best record of what?
Define legitimate error or complaint. Every officer generates complaints unless they are hiding and not doing their jobs.
The conviction rate has nothing to do with the officer. The officer makes an arrest and then its in the DAs hands. Deals aren't made because of cop errors; deals are made to get cases to a conclusion without tying things up in the courtroom with trials.

We aren't sacred cows. Legislators are just as willing to throw social programs out there as justifications for tax hikes as paying for police and teachers.

We were told that if we want a raise, we need to find savings elsewhere in the budget. In other, rob Peter to pay Paul. They aren't willing to raise taxes to pay for us, and in fact they've voiced opinions that cutting us off completely would give them more money to put towards social programs.

I am a veteran cop and UNIONS Suck!   Collective bargaining would be fine.   Unions are in the pockets of the Democratic Party.  Unions are selfish and only the Union leaders make the bank!!!  They make decisions to benefit themselves politically and benefit management.  Our Union leaders are elected Deputy Sheriffs who know nothing about contract negotiations.  They are also looking to promote when they leave the union, so they Kiss up to management and screw the membership for thier own benefit and promotion.

I don't trust the union as much as I don't trust the government.

Union is suppose to protect wage interests and contracts, not jobs!  Unions have become to power hungry and build too many empires.

Interesting contrast. Over here we have no union and it is illegal for us to strike, although striking goes against the grain with most of us anyway as the public would be put at risk, which is not what we are about. The bosses know this and play on it greatly. We do have a 'Police Federation' that negotiates nationally and locally on our behalf over pay and conditions etc., but at the end of the day it has no teeth so relies totally on being able to make a viable case on whatever the issue is. Sometimes government will just ride roughshod over any negotiations and we just have to accept any change.

Unions over here are generally associated with trades and industry, run by the Communist left element.

Didn't think you were bashing.  I think you have a good question, but IMO a faulty fate in the public and system in regards to fair pay.  I think the majority of the officers in my union do it for the contract negotiations (wage, leave, retirement, policies) and the legal protection aspect.  I trust my union reps far more than I do my COC.  The COC isn't in a position to look out for the individual officer, so it is nice to know that when something goes down, I have a rep who has no vested interest other than me.  After Sgt, seems like everyone is a politician before a cop and most Sgts seem to just be moving into that position.  So when something happens, it seems like no one is looking out for the officer.  Pretty crummy for the guys on the line if it wasn't for the union.  

I think the real issue isn't the unions but the Politicians using us as leverage to essentially hold the tax payers hostage.  There is so much waste in our municipal, state and federal government it is sickening.  And I am not just talking about the feed the homeless and give money to the worthless.  Just flat out waste.  It really pisses me off.  So I on the same page there.

At our force we do not yet have a union and it is illegal for us to organize - we are the only government agency not unionized other than the military. However - There was a supreme court decision 17 months ago that struck down that section of our authorizing legislation which was preventing us from organizing.

We desperately need a union. We are treated like migrant workers by management at every level of the organization. I know that we have a ten to fifteen year long Labour War ahead of us - but that is what we need to fix what was described by a Parliamentary Investigation a few years ago as a "Horribly Broken"

As far as what has happened with other unions and other forces, I can not comment, but our force need aggressive surgery to remove a plethora of tumours.

I wouldn't dream of working in LE here in NYC without a union.

Unions generally (in my area anyway), don't play any role in day to day operating policies.  That animal is strictly an agency/administrative issue.  Unions focus on pay, benefits, vacation/sick/comp time accrual rates, disciplinary procedures and grievance processes, etc.  In many areas of the country (or specific agencies), it is a very necessary evil.  Without them, nobody worth having would want the job.  There are a ton of places out there where the department administration is downright hostile to the working cops.  Fortunately, it's not like that where I work.  Our patrol cops are union, but our sergeants group recently left the union and negotiate our own contracts now.  We can do that because we (the PD in general) have an excellent working relationship with the city administration.  Sadly, that seems to be pretty rare.  

Imagine yourself doing what is often a very unpopular job, where you frequently have hostile and negative interactions with the very taxpayers that fund your livlihood.  Would you really want to do that without some measure of employment protection?  Most of us do this out of a sense of duty and committment to our communities.  Without protection, the only folks left that would willingly do the job are the ones you fear most; the power tripping egomaniacs, the kids that are getting even with the world for getting picked on in school, and the guys that can't walk and chew gum at the same time.  They are out there now, but they are a very small minority and FWIW, we don't like them either.

As for merit-based pay....who is going to determine the categories of merit and how are they going to be rated/scored?  I like merit pay for most occupations, but I'm not sure it's a good fit here.  Do you measure citations and arrests?  I'm not sure you'd want to do that, and it might violate quota laws.  Do you measure contacts?  I know agencies that do that.  Their guys will deliberately check out with every unoccupied car in a parking lot after 10 pm just to get their 'contacts' in.  Once they have achieved their desired number, then they go out and do some actual police work.  Is that really a productive use of their time?

I like discussions like this and appreciate you taking the time to ask.  Feel free to keep it going...

My agency has a non-LEO union representing it.

They are more concearned about personal email being blocked, facial hair and grooming standards, men being able to claim paterinity leave, easing the academy, and being able to earn as much money as possible, etc..

I am going through a situation at work now and I wish I had someone to help me through it. Right now, I am a member of the "Union of No"

and this is really the reason why you need a union in LE.